it seems like my training regime is always lacking in one thing… i can never get my shoulders in proportion to my chest/back/arm development. i was told once by my gf’s personal trainer to forget alot of the crap i was doing, and just press as much as i can to bulk up the shoulders which didnt work well either.
currently my workout is (forgive the bad terminology):
It’s kinda hard to help you out without seeing everything that you do since your shoulders get so involved in many “non-shoulder” movements.
Your volume seems quite excessive from what you’ve presented. There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence that shoulders are overworked in the first place since they’re involved in many chest, back, upper arm, and olympic lifts as well as direct shoulder work.
Try cutting back on your shoulder work, limiting it to your choice of overhead pressing movement(s). Lots of people have seen improvements by doing something like this that seems so counterintuitive.
Clean and Jerk
Military Press
DB Press
Shrugs
forward raises
lateral raises
reverse raises (reverse flyes)
When you say pullups, do you mean chin to bar or is it a bad term for upright row? If it is chin to bar, I would save those for back day. Also, you might be overtraining just a tad - 26 sets is WAYYYY too much. Try alternating exercises weekly like this:
Week 1:
Clean and Jerk
DB Press
Upright Rows
reverse raises
Week 2:
Clean and Jerk
Military Press
Shrugs
Lateral Raise/Reverse Raise Superset
But, since the clean and jerk already have a press movement involved, maybe you can switch week 2’s clean and jerk to a push press and leave out military press. Make sense?
Hope this helps, as I’m sure others will chime in.
I once asked a high level trainer-friend of mine why Staley didn’t include any shoulder work in his EDT program, and he supposed it was because Staley felt the delts got enough work from chest/back work, etc. He felt this was right too–he said he knows guys who do little direct shoulder work yet have huge and shaped delts. The opposite is also true (ie, your case).
This may be the case, but I say you may as well keep hitting them hard and hoping for the best. Check out CT’s Power Look article.
i think your right about the routine getting raped. it is kind of hard to realy tell what your doing. do you do that all in one day? 5 times per week 12 times per week what is it?
i recommend that you use the search function. there is plenty of good shoulder training, as well as total body training routines. give them a look.
i think your right about the routine getting raped. it is kind of hard to realy tell what your doing. do you do that all in one day? 5 times per week 12 times per week what is it?
i recommend that you use the search function. there is plenty of good shoulder training, as well as total body training routines. give them a look.
for a good rear delt movement, I do cable rows to the neck and squeeze your shoulder blades together. My rear delts have never felt more sore. Plus, I put some good size on them doing these, and now they are in proportion with the anterior and medial delts, along with my back.
CT’s “Power Look” article is more for the traps than the shoulders, but it might help. I tried it, and although I had a lot of fun with it, I didn’t see any new growth.
I think that there are several issues here:
One, too much friggin’ volume. As the other’s have said, it’s hard to tell without seeing the rest of your routine and knowing more about you, but if you’re a skinny bastard doing all that even once a week is probably going to constitute overtraining.
Two, you’re doing everything all at once. Why not give the lateral movements a shot for a couple of months, then switch it up to presses, then lay off all shoulder work completely, then do a specialized routine? (I recommend CP’s tri-set routine in the Archives.) Change things up a bit, see how you respond.
One thing I would NOT do is keep plugging away at the same routine. If it isn’t working for you now, it’s not going to suddenly start working for you tomorrow. Don’t get caught in that trap. There are lots of possiblities out there; keep trying different stuff until you find what works for you.
lotta good comments there.. but let me explain a little more so that u guys have a better idea.
i do this workout as part of a 5 day a week cycle working chest,back,shoulders,arms,legs on seperate days. i train 3 weeks on, 1 week off to give my body time to recuperate as i realize this is ALOT of volume. however i have found that my routines have been effective for everything BUT my shoulder work.
Responses
jwright: by pullups i did mean upright rows. got into a bad habit of calling them that a long time ago and still have trouble breakin it.
what is the push press? dont recognize the term (although i bet i recognize the exercise).
chrismcl: my name is gq cause of the drum and bass mc gq. not that GQ mag i have never picked up in my life.
char-dawg: i figured most ppl would say its alot of volume. i agree.. it is alot. im actually planning on just finishing this last cycle of it and moving into a different split workout (starting to work on figuring one out).
as far as the rest of my workout goes i do about 20% less volume in chest (flat,inc,dec bench, flys and pullovers), back (deadlifts and some rows and pulldowns), and legs (squats, presses, stiff deads, curls, and calf work). the real heavy exercises such as squats, deads, etc i tend to do a lower rep high set routine. my arms on the other hand i do an even higher volume that shoulders but keep to a pretty simple 3 set medium rep scheme. ive always had really good tricep development and my biceps and triceps never stop gaining from such a routine.
my body type is basically what i call the german body type. pretty barrel chested solid build, pretty ideal for weight training actually. not the huge o-line body type, more along the lines of a linebacker (that is once i get that strong :). i weigh 220 right now, although still tryin to cut off some body fat that i accumulated over the course of the school year (yay university, not gonna let it do it to me again this year tho).. aiming for a lean 230.
ike: i wont claim im an expert on lifting at all… i have done alot of reading and think i have picked up alot of tid bits.
trust me tho, i do try to go pretty hard at every exercise, and i push myself on each one. however when i have a workout with say half the volume… my body doesnt feel like its been worked enough. at the end of these workouts, i usually do some HIIT or ab work and afterwards have that amazing feeling in my chest, or shoulders whatever the workout was on.
i dunno what it is… maybe u can chalk it up to my stubborness when it comes to athletic activity (ie when i played basketball in high school, i was by no means the most fit physically or cardiovascularly but i would always outrun all but the soccer player on our team during the distance runs… just cause i wouldnt stop).
oh, btw… perhaps i should call the c&j more of a clean and press… i was told by a few trainers or other lifters/sites that its one of the best overall shoulder workouts. could be wrong tho…
from what I understand, the clean and jerk is the clean and press. A push press is where you can either clean the weight to your shoulders or have it racked that high, then do a 1/4 or 1/2 squat and explode the weight off of your shoulders. Like a controlled cheat rep, but effective.
Cut down on the volume and you should grow. As far as your complete training regimen, I wouldn’t do 3 weeks on, 1 week off. If you need that to recuperate, then you are completely overtraining. You should be able to go for much longer periods before needing a break.
For your split, if you want to keep it at 5 days, I would make legs on the 3rd day instead of the 5th. This will give your upperbody a little bit of a break. Just make delts on thursday and arms on Friday. If I was you, I would do a 2 on, 1 off, 2 on, 2 off split i.e. train Monday, Tuesday, Thursday Friday. After chest on Monday, do some shoulder presses and lateral raises. Then do legs on Tuesday. On thursday do back, and do some rear delt work. Friday is arms.
sry, correction again. i dont really NEED the break every three weeks… but i take it anyways to be safe… (gives me a chance to enjoy the summer those days too)…
ill take your suggestions into consideration… im really lookin for a better split prog and i like your suggestions cause i dont often like doing a really split program. so something like that could work out.
btw i know the one u mean by push press now. ya i like that one too… im gonna mix up my shoulder routine starting thursday… this is what im thinking (basically what jwright said):
unit 1:
clean press
db press
upright rows
laterals/reverse raises superset
unit 2:
push press
military press
shrugs
laterals/reverse raises superset
yes i know its not the same… but thats what i meant and it was my other mistake. the other guy just figured out what i meant. like i said… i am bad with remembering the proper names of these things (bad memory overall)
I stop training delts directly a long time ago. I might throw in 6 sets every few months to give them a little direct work. My results with this- I haven’t lost any size or strength. When I did throw in some delt work this month, I was actually doing more weight than I used to. As others have said, delts already get bombarded with presses, rows, and pull-ups.
