Charles P. and Box Squats

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
1

In the last article by Charles P. he is asked about listing an exercise he would not recommend, and he put up box squats, mainly due to the injury potential. There was a comment towards the end regarding there athletic application.

I had to think for a minute of a box squatter who was a world class athlete and came up of course with the original box squatter George Frenn. As well as setting a WR that survived 10 years and the last 4 of those were the start of super suits and wraps, he was an Olympian, in the top three non Euro hammer throwers in the world at one time and defeated Bondarchuck 72 OG champ, in the weight throw several times and set a WR in 56 superweight that was not bested for 30 years.

Is there injury potential maybe (I think Charles P. was referring to the way many people do them, and not was a blanket statement)

George said his knees were shot from very heavy box squats (1100lb) but at the time he made that statement I saw him in 1980, at around 105kgs squat 725lbs easily with track pants and some very old loose wraps and a belt straight out of 1970.

Is Charles P. wrong, I would never say so, he is one of the few coaches I would love to train with.

One of the things I love in this game is those exceptions to the rules. Should power athletes run, distance, I would never recommend that and have fought coaches that thought my shotputters should join their sprinters and middle distance runners in team warm-ups, yet Gerd Kanter who won this years OG discus, runs up to 40 minutes several times per week in his early season.

I think it might be Charles P. who is quoted that if you are in the weight room for more than an hour ( I think he says less) you are there making friends. Kanter trains for up to three hours straight, as does the Finn Pitkimarki. (though that is not all weight room) Would I train for three hours, don’t know because I know what happens to me after two.

Louie Simmons has given presentations at the Nat Throwers conventions in 07 & 06 (no conf in 08). Louie has been invited because some throwers who have plugged into his system have got outstanding results. The use of some Westside methodology has helped create some outstanding athletes. Would I ever recommend that a young thrower not buy into OL because of what these men have done, … well maybe, it all depends …and working that one out is the biggest trick of all.

I use throwers to illustrate as Ol and Pl are more interested in raising their lifts rather than their strength, power and other athletic attributes.

2

Its just yet more proof that everything works. Westside has had great result with athletes, be it through the original system or through what Defranco does. Clearly so has Poliquin.

That said Poliquin seems to have trained more top level competitors at the pro and olympic standard.

I dont think which major squat movement you do, so long as you are doing one, will dramatically alter the results that you get. If you re training properly anyway you ll be doing a lot of unilateral leg work etc in which you knee will pass over your shin anyway.

I think the determining factor is who they train/how much time is involved. Defranco trains a lot of younger people, thus a box means no issues with depth etc. Poliquin trains a lot of very valuable people and clearly doesnt want to risk one of them dropping onto the box to heavily. Horses for courses really.

3

[quote]Dave284 wrote:
Its just yet more proof that everything works. Westside has had great result with athletes, be it through the original system or through what Defranco does. Clearly so has Poliquin.

That said Poliquin seems to have trained more top level competitors at the pro and olympic standard.

I dont think which major squat movement you do, so long as you are doing one, will dramatically alter the results that you get. If you re training properly anyway you ll be doing a lot of unilateral leg work etc in which you knee will pass over your shin anyway.

I think the determining factor is who they train/how much time is involved. Defranco trains a lot of younger people, thus a box means no issues with depth etc. Poliquin trains a lot of very valuable people and clearly doesnt want to risk one of them dropping onto the box to heavily. Horses for courses really.[/quote]

Louie Simmons has consulted with a number of NFL and college football strength programs, as has Matt Wenning (who trained at westside previously) and Defranco works with a number of professional and college athletes here in the US.

Poliquin may have trained more olympic athletes, but at the professional level, Im going to venture as far as to say that WSB has had FAR greater influence compared to Poliquin.

4

I wouldnt agree at all. Check this out:

Notable clients include:
Al MacInnis, St Louis Blues, Norris Trophy winner, strongest slap-shot in the NHL
Joe Nieuwendyk, Dallas Stars, Conn Smythe Trophy winner, Stanley Cup winner
Chris Pronger, Colorado, St. Louis Blues, winner of Norris and Hart Trophy
Canadian short-track speed-skating team
Nanceen Perry, World Record Holder 4 x 200 m
Michelle Freeman, number 1 ranked hurdler in the World
Chris Thorpe, Olympic Silver & Bronze Medalist, Double’s Luge

Charles has trained Athletes on the following Professional Teams:
Detroit Red Wings
Colorado Avalanche
St. Louis Blues
Montreal Canadians Toronto Maple Leafs
Ottawa Senators
New York Rangers
New York Islanders Calgary Flames
Chicago Blackhawks
New Jersey Devils
Florida Panthers
Tampa Bay Lightning

World Championship medals in:
kayak
judo
bobsleigh
luge alpine skiing
biathlon
power-lifting
freestyle skiing swimming
figure skating
speed-skating short track
speed-skating long-track

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=259&Itemid=10036

Nothing to do with the original quesiton though.

5

it’s just Poliquin’s opinion, just like westside barbell guys don’t like power cleans, Poliquin doesn’t like box squats. The strength world is full of different opinions…

6

Exactly. He just doesnt think its the best way to train athletes. Its an opinion.

7

[quote]Dave284 wrote:
I wouldnt agree at all. Check this out:

[/quote]

Louie Simmons:
* Cleveland Browns
* Green Bay Packers
* New England Patriots
* Seattle Seahawks

* Butch Reynolds, 400m WR holder

Joe Defranco:
* Dave Diehl, offensive tackle, NY Giants
* Deon Anderson, fullback, Dallas Cowboys
* Mark DeRosa, 2nd baseman, Chicago Cubs
* Vinny Ciurciu, linebacker, Minnesota Vikings
* Miles Austin, wide receiver, Dallas Cowboys
* Mark Popovic, defenseman, Atlanta Thrashers
* Dhani Jones, linebacker, Cincinnati Bengals
* Ling Oei, Netherlands Wushu Team
* Carlton Smith, pitcher, Cleveland Indians organization
* Nikki Flores, point guard, Marist University
* Jim Finn, Former NFL fullback
* Corey Smith, 3rd baseman, Anaheim Angels organization
* Rich Scanlon, linebacker, Tennessee Titans
* Vito Chiaravalloti, infielder Somerset Patriots (Atlantic League)
* Dan Klecko, fullback, Philadelphia Eagles
* Brian Witherspoon, kick returner, Jacksonville Jaguars
* Mackenzy Bernadeau, offensive guard, Carolina Panthers
* Mike Richardson, defensive back, New England Patriots

Matt Wenning:
* Pittsburgh
* Notre Dame
* TCU
* Ball State
* Missouri
* Cleveland Browns
* New York Jets
* New England Patriots
* Green Bay Packers
* San Francisco 49ers

* Coordinator for U.S. Army Rangers (Speed, Strength, Power & Rehabilitation)

* Strength & Speed Coach for NFL Combine
 5.1 sec 40yd to 4.7 sec in 7 weeks - Started 6 games for Detroit Lions (fastest TE over 280)  2007              
 5.4 sec to 5.0 sec  in 6 weeks (4/10th off 40yd at 318lb BW) - Arizona Cardinals Roster-  2006

* Strongest player in the draft 225x43. 2008.

* Fastest DE in the draft. 6.83 L-drill at 263lb BW, 4.52 40yd. 2008

* Fastest DT in the draft. 4.80 40yd. 2008.

* Doubled 225 rep test from 13-27 in 7 weeks (TE) Mike Peterson - 2008

While I agree that CP is probably an excellent coach, I think his accomplishments have been overblown by people on this site.

8

If it’s posted on T-Nation it must be true

9

Pretty comprable lists if you ask me. I havent added in the athletes whom Poliquin trained people have trained so its hardly a fair comparison.

Id imagine that if you asked either a guy at Westside, or someone Poliquin has instructed, then they would say that their systems are pretty similar. Train the right movements, train them hard and cycle them effectively.

10

If you read the article, he was asked what lift should ATHLETES avoid. This doesn’t rule out PL’ers or OL’ers. I also wouldnt rule out athletes as well. From Poliquin’s point of view, his time to work with athletes is limited, so he has to get the best return for time invested. Considering that situation, I don’t think the Box Squat would accomodate that. Think of the Box Squat as just 1 tool in an arsenal of things you can use to get stronger. It might be the right or wrong tool depending the situation.

11

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
If you read the article, he was asked what lift should ATHLETES avoid. This doesn’t rule out PL’ers or OL’ers. I also wouldnt rule out athletes as well. From Poliquin’s point of view, his time to work with athletes is limited, so he has to get the best return for time invested. Considering that situation, I don’t think the Box Squat would accomodate that. Think of the Box Squat as just 1 tool in an arsenal of things you can use to get stronger. It might be the right or wrong tool depending the situation. [/quote]

IMO, its easier to teach someone to box squat properly than it is to teach someone to power snatch properly…

12

Though I am a Westside Method user, It’s really just different strokes for different folks. There’s no wrong way, as long as you get results.

The box squat injury thing seems like bullshit to me, though.

13

[quote]masonator wrote:
Though I am a Westside Method user, It’s really just different strokes for different folks. There’s no wrong way, as long as you get results.

The box squat injury thing seems like bullshit to me, though.[/quote]

You can also injure yourself while driving a car, so let’s not drive cars anymore.

Authors love to make polarizing/blanket statements and come up with catchphrases… Just part of being an author I guess.

14

The point is, many roads lead to Rome, as other have mentioned.

Let’s say both Louie and Charles decide, this athlete is not strong enough. He needs to Olympic-style back squat (high-bar, below parallel) 500lbs. to reach his vertical jump goal, as that style of squat has one of the highest dynamic correspondences to vertical jump. Let’s call this 500lb. back squat the target training effect, or TTE.

Louie decides to implement methods A, B, & C to realize the TTE. So;

A + B + C = TTE

Charles decides to implement methods X, Y, & Z to realize the TTE. So;

X + Y + Z = TTE

As you can see, they are both right.

Take this a step further, whichever athlete was able to realize TTE with least cost to the bioenergetic systems and most orthopedically sound means, wins. So in layman’s terms, the athlete who had the least stress and the least opportunity for injury, i.e. least total cost to the organism, wins.

Now, obviously we can debate endlessly and post studies for both sides about which exercise, the power snatch or the box squat, is easier to teach, more orthopedically sound, etc. Again, many roads lead to Rome. If you guys are looking for the “right” answer, be prepared to keep looking.

Just realize that as a “coach”, it is well within your responsibility to not only realize the TTE - but to realize it efficiently. An athlete’s (and your) greatest commodity is time.

15

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
If you read the article, he was asked what lift should ATHLETES avoid. This doesn’t rule out PL’ers or OL’ers. I also wouldnt rule out athletes as well. From Poliquin’s point of view, his time to work with athletes is limited, so he has to get the best return for time invested. Considering that situation, I don’t think the Box Squat would accomodate that.

Think of the Box Squat as just 1 tool in an arsenal of things you can use to get stronger. It might be the right or wrong tool depending the situation.

IMO, its easier to teach someone to box squat properly than it is to teach someone to power snatch properly…[/quote]

sigh…

16

[quote]arnoud verschoor wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
If you read the article, he was asked what lift should ATHLETES avoid. This doesn’t rule out PL’ers or OL’ers. I also wouldnt rule out athletes as well. From Poliquin’s point of view, his time to work with athletes is limited, so he has to get the best return for time invested. Considering that situation, I don’t think the Box Squat would accomodate that. Think of the Box Squat as just 1 tool in an arsenal of things you can use to get stronger. It might be the right or wrong tool depending the situation.

IMO, its easier to teach someone to box squat properly than it is to teach someone to power snatch properly…

sigh…[/quote]

care to elaborate?

17

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
care to elaborate?[/quote]

Don’t you think someone of European descent is going to argue that the power snatch is easier to teach? Just simply a difference in weightlifting culture.

I mean, let him respond, but I think you know what he’s going to say.

18

[quote]Affliction wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
care to elaborate?

Don’t you think someone of European descent is going to argue that the power snatch is easier to teach? Just simply a difference in weightlifting culture.

I mean, let him respond, but I think you know what he’s going to say.[/quote]

Lol are you joking? Not everyone in Europe likes oly lifting.

19

[quote]Dave284 wrote:
Lol are you joking? Not everyone in Europe likes oly lifting.[/quote]

Are you joking? Certainly a far greater percentage than those in the States.

20

Lol Europe is a big place mate. Oly lifting is virtually non existant in most of Western Europe, it becomes more common the further East you go. Even then, it has heavy competition from boxing and football.

Do you remember any British, Spanish or French medalling in the olympic weightlifting? I dont.