Charles P. and Box Squats

[quote]Dave284 wrote:
Pretty comprable lists if you ask me. I havent added in the athletes whom Poliquin trained people have trained so its hardly a fair comparison.

Id imagine that if you asked either a guy at Westside, or someone Poliquin has instructed, then they would say that their systems are pretty similar. Train the right movements, train them hard and cycle them effectively.

[/quote]

Whenever I see lists like this, I always wonder what it really means. I get the feeling that many strength coaches would only need to talk to an athlete for 10 seconds before adding them to their list of people they have trained.

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Dave284 wrote:
Pretty comprable lists if you ask me. I havent added in the athletes whom Poliquin trained people have trained so its hardly a fair comparison.

Id imagine that if you asked either a guy at Westside, or someone Poliquin has instructed, then they would say that their systems are pretty similar. Train the right movements, train them hard and cycle them effectively.

Whenever I see lists like this, I always wonder what it really means. I get the feeling that many strength coaches would only need to talk to an athlete for 10 seconds before adding them to their list of people they have trained.

[/quote]

I totally agree mate, I was just trying to point out that the lists on each sides websites are similar. Its also difficult to assess the extent to which a system has been adopted. If a team box squat are they westside, for example. Anyway, its a retarded thing to argue about!

[quote]Dave284 wrote:
Lol Europe is a big place mate. Oly lifting is virtually non existant in most of Western Europe, it becomes more common the further East you go. Even then, it has heavy competition from boxing and football.

Do you remember any British, Spanish or French medalling in the olympic weightlifting? I dont.[/quote]

That’s true. People in Germany don’t know anything about it either.
The only coverage it got recently was due to one of our guys actually winning.
Even bodybuilding is more “well-known” here, and I live in former eastern Germany where weightlifting used to be a bigger thing back in the day.

Well, I apologize for my misconceptions about Olympic lifting in Europe, but still assert that it is more popular than in the States, as a whole.

I would prefer if anyone would like to discuss my earlier analysis of the box squat efficacy debate, rather than the prevalence of Olympic lifting in Europe, as I think that is the far more interesting topic.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Dave284 wrote:
Lol Europe is a big place mate. Oly lifting is virtually non existant in most of Western Europe, it becomes more common the further East you go. Even then, it has heavy competition from boxing and football.

Do you remember any British, Spanish or French medalling in the olympic weightlifting? I dont.

That’s true. People in Germany don’t know anything about it either.
The only coverage it got recently was due to one of our guys actually winning.
Even bodybuilding is more “well-known” here, and I live in former eastern Germany where weightlifting used to be a bigger thing back in the day.

[/quote]

That was such a great story it even got a large amount of coverage over here. What a fantastic, fantastic story. What was the jump to his last attempt, 10kg? Unbelievable. And what a humanizing display of emotion afterwards. I honestly consider the footage that I watched - showing pretty much the entire duel, from snatch to medal ceremony, between chigishev, steiner and the latvian - to be one of the top 10 moments of weightlifting badassery I’ve ever witnessed.

[quote]Affliction wrote:
Well, I apologize for my misconceptions about Olympic lifting in Europe, but still assert that it is more popular than in the States, as a whole.

I would prefer if anyone would like to discuss my earlier analysis of the box squat efficacy debate, rather than the prevalence of Olympic lifting in Europe, as I think that is the far more interesting topic.[/quote]

Well you ve pretty much just repeated what was said initially. Both approaches obviously work and both sides think that their way is the most effective for their clients.

Its impossible to say which is ‘better’. Some guys from Westside (Kroc) use oly squats not box squats and im sure people who have been trained by Poliquin have gone on to box squat.

The German guy at the olympics was amazing, seeing how much it ment to him was awesome.

[quote]Dave284 wrote:
Affliction wrote:
Well, I apologize for my misconceptions about Olympic lifting in Europe, but still assert that it is more popular than in the States, as a whole.

I would prefer if anyone would like to discuss my earlier analysis of the box squat efficacy debate, rather than the prevalence of Olympic lifting in Europe, as I think that is the far more interesting topic.

Well you ve pretty much just repeated what was said initially. Both approaches obviously work and both sides think that their way is the most effective for their clients.

Its impossible to say which is ‘better’. Some guys from Westside (Kroc) use oly squats not box squats and im sure people who have been trained by Poliquin have gone on to box squat.

The German guy at the olympics was amazing, seeing how much it ment to him was awesome.[/quote]

Kroc is NOT from Westside. He has NEVER been a part of Westside. Hell, I’m not even sure if he’s ever even been to their gym.

Sorry…I see your point and agree, but people keep saying Kroc is from Westside and it drives me nuts.

Lol, I ment from the Westside style system, thanks for pointing that out tho!

[quote]masonator wrote:
Kroc is NOT from Westside. He has NEVER been a part of Westside. Hell, I’m not even sure if he’s ever even been to their gym.

Sorry…I see your point and agree, but people keep saying Kroc is from Westside and it drives me nuts.[/quote]

Lol, same here :wink:

[quote]Dave284 wrote:
Lol, I ment from the Westside style system, thanks for pointing that out tho![/quote]

Hmm… I think he may have done some westside-inspired stuff earlier in his career, but for years now his training hasn’t even remotely resembled ws.

If anything then he’s caught the bodybuilding bug ;D

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Dave284 wrote:
Lol Europe is a big place mate. Oly lifting is virtually non existant in most of Western Europe, it becomes more common the further East you go. Even then, it has heavy competition from boxing and football.

Do you remember any British, Spanish or French medalling in the olympic weightlifting? I dont.

That’s true. People in Germany don’t know anything about it either.
The only coverage it got recently was due to one of our guys actually winning.
Even bodybuilding is more “well-known” here, and I live in former eastern Germany where weightlifting used to be a bigger thing back in the day.

That was such a great story it even got a large amount of coverage over here. What a fantastic, fantastic story. What was the jump to his last attempt, 10kg? Unbelievable. And what a humanizing display of emotion afterwards.

I honestly consider the footage that I watched - showing pretty much the entire duel, from snatch to medal ceremony, between chigishev, steiner and the latvian - to be one of the top 10 moments of weightlifting badassery I’ve ever witnessed.[/quote]

I watched full replay and purposely didn’t go looking for the results cos I prefer to see how it plays out.

Anyway, I watched it with my girlfriend (how lucky am I???) and it was such an amazing battle to witness, the commentator filled everyone in on the story of his wife, and then after his second attempt he looked like he’d given it his all. I think Chigsev got his 3rd lift, and when I saw what Steiner called for I said to my gf “god I hope he gets this, but there’s not a chance in hell”.

Needless to say I was nearly in tears watching what followed!!

That, and Usain Bolt’s destruction of everyone are my two biggest memories from the games.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
masonator wrote:
Kroc is NOT from Westside. He has NEVER been a part of Westside. Hell, I’m not even sure if he’s ever even been to their gym.

Sorry…I see your point and agree, but people keep saying Kroc is from Westside and it drives me nuts.

Lol, same here :wink:
[/quote]

What do you expect when the “knowledgeable” authors who write articles here post a picture of Kroc and say “Westsides Matt Kroc…”

shocking, tbh.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
masonator wrote:
Kroc is NOT from Westside. He has NEVER been a part of Westside. Hell, I’m not even sure if he’s ever even been to their gym.

Sorry…I see your point and agree, but people keep saying Kroc is from Westside and it drives me nuts.

Lol, same here :wink:

What do you expect when the “knowledgeable” authors who write articles here post a picture of Kroc and say “Westsides Matt Kroc…”

shocking, tbh.[/quote]

What do you mean? I thought all Powerlifters train Westside… ;D

Edit: it was Lou S.'s fault (Editor) though, or so he said.

Either way, I always get a good chuckle out of training articles featuring pictures of pro-bodybuilders who wouldn’t be caught dead training the way the article promotes.

[quote]Affliction wrote:
The point is, many roads lead to Rome, as other have mentioned.

Let’s say both Louie and Charles decide, this athlete is not strong enough. He needs to Olympic-style back squat (high-bar, below parallel) 500lbs. to reach his vertical jump goal, as that style of squat has one of the highest dynamic correspondences to vertical jump. Let’s call this 500lb. back squat the target training effect, or TTE.

Louie decides to implement methods A, B, & C to realize the TTE. So;

A + B + C = TTE

Charles decides to implement methods X, Y, & Z to realize the TTE. So;

X + Y + Z = TTE

As you can see, they are both right.

Take this a step further, whichever athlete was able to realize TTE with least cost to the bioenergetic systems and most orthopedically sound means, wins. So in layman’s terms, the athlete who had the least stress and the least opportunity for injury, i.e. least total cost to the organism, wins.

Now, obviously we can debate endlessly and post studies for both sides about which exercise, the power snatch or the box squat, is easier to teach, more orthopedically sound, etc. Again, many roads lead to Rome. If you guys are looking for the “right” answer, be prepared to keep looking.

Just realize that as a “coach”, it is well within your responsibility to not only realize the TTE - but to realize it efficiently. An athlete’s (and your) greatest commodity is time.[/quote]

Cool answer. Is anything publicly available that discusses dynamic correspondence? It sounds interesting.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Dave284 wrote:
Lol Europe is a big place mate. Oly lifting is virtually non existant in most of Western Europe, it becomes more common the further East you go. Even then, it has heavy competition from boxing and football.

Do you remember any British, Spanish or French medalling in the olympic weightlifting? I dont.

That’s true. People in Germany don’t know anything about it either.
The only coverage it got recently was due to one of our guys actually winning.
Even bodybuilding is more “well-known” here, and I live in former eastern Germany where weightlifting used to be a bigger thing back in the day.

That was such a great story it even got a large amount of coverage over here. What a fantastic, fantastic story. What was the jump to his last attempt, 10kg? Unbelievable. And what a humanizing display of emotion afterwards.

I honestly consider the footage that I watched - showing pretty much the entire duel, from snatch to medal ceremony, between chigishev, steiner and the latvian - to be one of the top 10 moments of weightlifting badassery I’ve ever witnessed.

I watched full replay and purposely didn’t go looking for the results cos I prefer to see how it plays out.

Anyway, I watched it with my girlfriend (how lucky am I???) and it was such an amazing battle to witness, the commentator filled everyone in on the story of his wife, and then after his second attempt he looked like he’d given it his all. I think Chigsev got his 3rd lift, and when I saw what Steiner called for I said to my gf “god I hope he gets this, but there’s not a chance in hell”.

Needless to say I was nearly in tears watching what followed!!

That, and Usain Bolt’s destruction of everyone are my two biggest memories from the games.[/quote]

I really hate it when you call me your girlfriend… I’m your life partner, come on get it right…

[quote]Affliction wrote:
The point is, many roads lead to Rome, as other have mentioned.

Let’s say both Louie and Charles decide, this athlete is not strong enough. He needs to Olympic-style back squat (high-bar, below parallel) 500lbs. to reach his vertical jump goal, as that style of squat has one of the highest dynamic correspondences to vertical jump. Let’s call this 500lb. back squat the target training effect, or TTE.

Louie decides to implement methods A, B, & C to realize the TTE. So;

A + B + C = TTE

Charles decides to implement methods X, Y, & Z to realize the TTE. So;

X + Y + Z = TTE

As you can see, they are both right.

Take this a step further, whichever athlete was able to realize TTE with least cost to the bioenergetic systems and most orthopedically sound means, wins. So in layman’s terms, the athlete who had the least stress and the least opportunity for injury, i.e. least total cost to the organism, wins.

Now, obviously we can debate endlessly and post studies for both sides about which exercise, the power snatch or the box squat, is easier to teach, more orthopedically sound, etc. Again, many roads lead to Rome. If you guys are looking for the “right” answer, be prepared to keep looking.

Just realize that as a “coach”, it is well within your responsibility to not only realize the TTE - but to realize it efficiently. An athlete’s (and your) greatest commodity is time.[/quote]

In other words, just get the most bang for your buck. :wink: