Also Ceph, you should do BBB 
Modok and DH are also getting in on the act, so you might as well sign up might get to 300kg Squat (holy mother lol)
[quote]ajweins wrote:
Are you ever going to go back to DC training? Is lack of a proper gym still the reason for you not doing it?[/quote]
Yep. As soon as my gym situation improves (or I end up buying a home gym lol), Iāll go back to DC.
A blast on the 2-way to get back into things and then Iāll give the 3-way a go.
[quote]SmallToBig wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
At your already advanced size and strength what kind of strength increases are you looking for each session? Still adding 1-2 reps/5lb. each workout by switching up exercises frequently enough?
Knowing him he throws on 20kgs just for fun onto every exercise, drinks some German Beer (has magical properties) and does it
His Squat is 280kg / 620lbs or around there feck sake lol. [/quote] Whereād you get that number anyway? I did a set of 4 with 585 during my DC days and that was my best rep-set ever (not sure if those would have passed in competition though, probably a tad highā¦ Was at the end of a nice gaining phase with squats, practically added weight (and not just 2.5kg either) every 2 weeks)ā¦ And thatās the only squat number of mine I ever actually mentioned on here, I think.
[quote]
You have 25kg plates in your gym Ceph or you hog every last one of the 20kg ones ?
6 20kg plates and 1 10kg plate a side mother of god iād be FAR to worried to stand under that
[/quote] By the time you get there, having it on your back and walking it out of the rack isnāt much to worry about. Ok, not exactly comfortable, but yeah. [quote]
Up to 110kg now, ONLY 170kg behind ! I thought i was doing well 2 20kg plates a side lol then he told me his Squat number 
[/quote]
Well it took me something like 8-9 years to get my squat to 585x4, so youāve got some time to catch up.
I started out much weaker than you in the squatā¦ At my first squat session I think I did 42.5 Kg x8 or so (bodyweight of 65 kilos by then, up from 58)ā¦ (with an EZ bar, cleaned up and put behind my head lol).
100Kg*8 was a huge milestone for me (no idea what bodyweight, probably around 95 or above, carrying a little more fat than necessary)ā¦ And thatās only 220 lbsā¦ I really am not made for a great back squat compared to my weight.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I go by the logbook of course when it comes to how well a routine/system is working for muscle/strength gainsā¦ I pretty much know that if I go up in weight on my 5-20RMās without my form changing drastically, Iām also getting bigger.
At your already advanced size and strength what kind of strength increases are you looking for each session? Still adding 1-2 reps/5lb. each workout by switching up exercises frequently enough?
[/quote]
Using microplates a lot on assistance work.
With 5/3/1, I add around 5-10 lbs to my 5-9RM in every 5/3/1 lift over the course of 4 weeks, roughly.
Think it was in here we were discussing Squats 
CC
How long is your workout session on average?
Itās my 1st week on your template and my training session is almost done in less than 30minsā¦ In & out the gym in giffyā¦ LOL
[quote]phrangan wrote:
CC
How long is your workout session on average?
Itās my 1st week on your template and my training session is almost done in less than 30minsā¦ In & out the gym in giffyā¦ LOL[/quote]
The shorter you can keep your sessions, the higher you can keep the frequencyā¦
Still, maybe your rest periods are very short or you do very few warm-up sets?
How about you post a session or two?
This probably is a weird question but CC would you ever recommend waiting to start ramping?
For example if someone were in a position where strength gains werenāt going to be that good regardless of what they do (due to very low calories) would there be a benefit in waiting until calories are upped to start the ramping method or would it not hurt later gains by starting now on the lower calories?
[quote]Needmassquick wrote:
This probably is a weird question but CC would you ever recommend waiting to start ramping?
For example if someone were in a position where strength gains werenāt going to be that good regardless of what they do (due to very low calories) would there be a benefit in waiting until calories are upped to start the ramping method or would it not hurt later gains by starting now on the lower calories?[/quote]
What do you want to do instead? Straight sets probably need even more caloriesā¦
Are you dieting?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
CantStop wrote:
CC
I am interested where you got the source of the dorian 3 day split from? Huh, no idea man. Picked it up somewhere ages ago, but I think Thibs and someone else also mentioned it on the forums here.
It seems pretty low in volume - 3 exercises for legs
Also what is the reasoning to do the delts before the back? Was it to simply bring the delts up?
I modified the original split some.
After a quad widowmaker (which wasnāt there in the old routine), you really shouldnāt be in the mood for anything other than crawling into bedā¦ That plus the higher overall frequency results in less exercises for legsā¦ I mean, you do Back Squats 4-6, then widowmaker, then Glute-Ham raises or whatever (or do them before quad work), then some heavy calf stuffā¦ If you still want to do more, then youāre probably just not pushing yourself as you should.
That being said, you can add some more exercisesā¦ I just personally donāt see the point in doing that with this type of split and as a drug-free trainee. You want to get strong in some mid-high rep ranges on key exercises for each major muscle-group, not do a lot of exercises just so you can feel hardcore 
You can however do 2 work sets per exercise if you want. (at different rep ranges, preferably)
On some exercises (quad work, rack pulls/deads) youād be doing that anyway.
Delts before back? Same thing. After heavy BO rows or Krocs or rack pulls, Iām really not able to give my all on my shoulder workā¦ Also, a fatigued mid/upper back hinders overhead work progression/strengthā¦
On the other hand, I can do overhead work and laterals and still go superheavy on rack pulls no problemā¦
Thatās stuff from my DC days actually (the widowmaker, stretches if you want to do them, doing the most demanding exercises last, usually).
[/quote]
Thanks for the information CC
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Needmassquick wrote:
This probably is a weird question but CC would you ever recommend waiting to start ramping?
For example if someone were in a position where strength gains werenāt going to be that good regardless of what they do (due to very low calories) would there be a benefit in waiting until calories are upped to start the ramping method or would it not hurt later gains by starting now on the lower calories?
What do you want to do instead? Straight sets probably need even more caloriesā¦
Are you dieting?
[/quote]
Yes Iām dieting, pretty damn low calories lol.
Straight sets is what Iāve pretty much always done. At the start of this routine I was doing almost all straight sets except squats and deadlifts. Since then Iāve switched to ramping up military press (from 5x10 before), EZ-bar curls (from 3x8 before) and to 2 different rep range work sets on incline bench (from flat) and decline DB bench (just switched from 4x5 straight setted dips)
I already switched 4 exercises but basically Iām wondering if by switching to ramping the rest on low calories Iād be losing some of the benefit of the switch and would see better results by waiting to switch anything else until Iām eating more. (I guess in a way like if a new trainer didnāt take advantage of his beginner gains because he didnāt eat much and then by the time he did eat a lot he lost the chance for most noob gainsā¦thats basically what happened to me too lol)
[quote]Needmassquick wrote:
I guess in a way like if a new trainer didnāt take advantage of his beginner gains because he didnāt eat much and then by the time he did eat a lot he lost the chance for most noob gainsā¦thats basically what happened to me too lol[/quote]
Really is there a time limit on when your ānoob gainsā stop from the time you start lifting weights ?
Glad i listened to the big German and others so!
C_C, how are your gains coming along?
[quote]CantStop wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
CantStop wrote:
CC
I am interested where you got the source of the dorian 3 day split from? Huh, no idea man. Picked it up somewhere ages ago, but I think Thibs and someone else also mentioned it on the forums here.
It seems pretty low in volume - 3 exercises for legs
Also what is the reasoning to do the delts before the back? Was it to simply bring the delts up?
I modified the original split some.
After a quad widowmaker (which wasnāt there in the old routine), you really shouldnāt be in the mood for anything other than crawling into bedā¦ That plus the higher overall frequency results in less exercises for legsā¦ I mean, you do Back Squats 4-6, then widowmaker, then Glute-Ham raises or whatever (or do them before quad work), then some heavy calf stuffā¦ If you still want to do more, then youāre probably just not pushing yourself as you should.
That being said, you can add some more exercisesā¦ I just personally donāt see the point in doing that with this type of split and as a drug-free trainee. You want to get strong in some mid-high rep ranges on key exercises for each major muscle-group, not do a lot of exercises just so you can feel hardcore
You can however do 2 work sets per exercise if you want. (at different rep ranges, preferably)
On some exercises (quad work, rack pulls/deads) youād be doing that anyway.
Delts before back? Same thing. After heavy BO rows or Krocs or rack pulls, Iām really not able to give my all on my shoulder workā¦ Also, a fatigued mid/upper back hinders overhead work progression/strengthā¦
On the other hand, I can do overhead work and laterals and still go superheavy on rack pulls no problemā¦
Thatās stuff from my DC days actually (the widowmaker, stretches if you want to do them, doing the most demanding exercises last, usually).
Thanks for the information CC[/quote]
Its all very very true too. Do a widowmaker set for quads and if you want to do anything other than puke or lay down you arenāt pushing it hard enough.
[quote]CantStop wrote:
Thanks for the information CC[/quote]
Sure thing.
[quote]Needmassquick wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Needmassquick wrote:
This probably is a weird question but CC would you ever recommend waiting to start ramping?
For example if someone were in a position where strength gains werenāt going to be that good regardless of what they do (due to very low calories) would there be a benefit in waiting until calories are upped to start the ramping method or would it not hurt later gains by starting now on the lower calories?
What do you want to do instead? Straight sets probably need even more caloriesā¦
Are you dieting?
Yes Iām dieting, pretty damn low calories lol.
Straight sets is what Iāve pretty much always done. At the start of this routine I was doing almost all straight sets except squats and deadlifts. Since then Iāve switched to ramping up military press (from 5x10 before), EZ-bar curls (from 3x8 before) and to 2 different rep range work sets on incline bench (from flat) and decline DB bench (just switched from 4x5 straight setted dips)
I already switched 4 exercises but basically Iām wondering if by switching to ramping the rest on low calories Iād be losing some of the benefit of the switch and would see better results by waiting to switch anything else until Iām eating more. (I guess in a way like if a new trainer didnāt take advantage of his beginner gains because he didnāt eat much and then by the time he did eat a lot he lost the chance for most noob gainsā¦thats basically what happened to me too lol)[/quote]
When dieting and still wanting to gain strength (note: I would not recommend dieting on very low cals anyway unless youāre trying to get into contest shapeā¦ Find an alternative imoā¦ Carb cycling etc), try fatty-fatās cluster training on a 2-way split or so. (check his thread) Go with 25 or 30 or whatever total reps per exercise, Iād say,
either
a) back (one width, one thickness maybeā¦ Rows done with focus on backthickness + pullups or pulldowns or so), chest (or other way around), bis/forearms (pinwheels work well for this, also EZ/BB curls)
b) Delts, Tris (board presses or Dead Skullsā¦ EZ extensions on floor/bench, bringing bar down behind head, letting it rest on bench/floor briefly, explode back up but stop with upper arms at an inclineā¦ Use elbow sleeves), then rotate back squats with SLDLās or glute-ham raises or some such for the third slot.
Do the above over 4-6 days a weekā¦ But you may have to increase dietary intake, still, and itās imo easy to injure yourself when youāre in-experienced and using such a method.
Or
Upper / lower, maybe just 2 lower days or soā¦
Anywayā¦ You will always make better gains when not restricting your cals a lot. No matter what method youāre using.
You can start ramping now if you want, beginner gains donāt just āexpireā or anything (although theyāll become ālessā, sort of, the older you get before your start training for real)
CC
Firstly i am very much beginner in term of strength level. Current stats are 160lbs @ 14%bf 5ft11" 35yrs
The following are my estimated 1 RM
BP - 165
Squat - 225
DL - 275
Kroc Row - 9512
Chinup - 453
As such i would take about 3-4 warm up sets in small incremental to get to my working sets. Typically i rest between 2 mins per set. Recently 5/3/1 Squat goes like these
Warmup 11510
Warmup 13510
Warmup 1558
1st set 1655
2nd set 1755
3rd set 18510 (AMAP)
As mentioned most workout takes me less than 30 mins to complete. Any feedback as in whether for my current training level can i utilise your ramping template or should i consider other options?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
When dieting and still wanting to gain strength (note: I would not recommend dieting on very low cals anyway unless youāre trying to get into contest shapeā¦ Find an alternative imoā¦ Carb cycling etc), try fatty-fatās cluster training on a 2-way split or so. (check his thread) Go with 25 or 30 or whatever total reps per exercise, Iād say,
either
a) back (one width, one thickness maybeā¦ Rows done with focus on backthickness + pullups or pulldowns or so), chest (or other way around), bis/forearms (pinwheels work well for this, also EZ/BB curls)
b) Delts, Tris (board presses or Dead Skullsā¦ EZ extensions on floor/bench, bringing bar down behind head, letting it rest on bench/floor briefly, explode back up but stop with upper arms at an inclineā¦ Use elbow sleeves), then rotate back squats with SLDLās or glute-ham raises or some such for the third slot.
Do the above over 4-6 days a weekā¦ But you may have to increase dietary intake, still, and itās imo easy to injure yourself when youāre in-experienced and using such a method.
Or
Upper / lower, maybe just 2 lower days or soā¦
Anywayā¦ You will always make better gains when not restricting your cals a lot. No matter what method youāre using.
You can start ramping now if you want, beginner gains donāt just āexpireā or anything (although theyāll become ālessā, sort of, the older you get before your start training for real)
[/quote]
Thanks for the in-depth response. I will check out fatty-fats method but may save that for a later time. Is his thread explaining it the same one in the t-cell where he talks about his whole journey though the years?
Basically what Iām doing now is helping me to maintain strength with the low calories (which will likely stop soon) but I was just wondering if it was bad to start ramping before I increase calories, but it seems you think it is fine right?
Basically what it seems Iāve been doing is switching an exercise to ramping once I stall with the straight sets. If nothing else itās certainly more fun ramping
[quote]phrangan wrote:
CC
Firstly i am very much beginner in term of strength level. Current stats are 160lbs @ 14%bf 5ft11" 35yrs
The following are my estimated 1 RM
BP - 165
Squat - 225
DL - 275
Kroc Row - 9512
Chinup - 453
As such i would take about 3-4 warm up sets in small incremental to get to my working sets. Typically i rest between 2 mins per set. Recently 5/3/1 Squat goes like these
Warmup 11510
Warmup 13510
Warmup 1558 [/quote] Wasting a lot of energy there, Iād go:
warmup 458-10
warmup 905-6
warmup 1353-5 [quote]
1st set 165*5 [/quote] Also looks like youāre using the narrow 5/3/1 loading parameter template.
Iād try the other one if I were you (especially for squats and deadlifts and suchā¦ Jim uses it as well, as far as I know):
Wave 1. Warmup, 65%x5, 75%x5, 85%x5+
Wave 2. Warmup, 70%x3, 80%x3, 90%x3+
Wave 3. Warmup, 75%x5, 85%x3, 95%x1+
Wave 4 (Deload) - 60%x5, 65%x5, 70%x5
This is closer to bb ramping (not really the same, but still), too.
You can use ramping for your assistance work and keep doing 5/3/1 for a few main exercises.
There are also various ways to go about rampingā¦
From the classic 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% of working weight to something like 50%, 80%, 90%, 100% ā not my favorite, but yeahā¦
Also, you can do two top sets (one heavy, one light or the other way aroundā¦ 5-8 + 9-12)
Whichever you like and whatever allows you to make good strength gains.
[quote]That One Guy wrote:
C_C, how are your gains coming along?[/quote]
Having a hard time because my piece-of-crap gym has so little equipmentā¦ And the stuff we have is low-quality ā¦ The few machines and cable-stations (we actually only have one true cable stationā¦ And that stack wouldnāt suffice as a paperweightā¦ The other cable station doesnāt have a cable, but a non-stretchable black band attached to the stack. Thing is, if you pull/push explosively, the stack flies sky-high and you lose all tension until it comes crashing down again.
Also, the cable/band station is too high so that itās hard to do face-away/scott extensions without falling over due to the crappy leveragesā¦ Plus you have to get into position in the first placeā¦ Bah.
Doing board presses a lot now for tris, I had to use about 60 lbs less weight at first on that one than on my CGPāsā¦ But Iām already back up 30 lbs, so things are going ok.