Has anyone else used this program? I have milked everything I can out of the Texas Method and weekly progress isn’t working anymore. I need a more periodized program, anyone think this is a good decision?
I have also been eyeballing the Stronglifts 5x5 advanced version which is very similar.
This is what I’ve been looking at, only using power cleans instead of rows.
Volume Phase 4 weeks
Deloading Period 1 week
Intensity Phase 4 weeks
Mon…Volume Phase
Squat…5x5…
Bench…1x5…
Row…1x5…
Wed…Volume Phase.
Squat…5x5 15-20% less than Monday
Deadlift…5x5
Military…5x5
Pullups…5x5
Fri…Volume Phase
Squat…1x5
Bench…5x5
Row…5x5
Intensity Phase 4 weeks
Mon…Deload/Intensity Phase
Squat…3x3
Bench…1x3
Row…1x3
Wed…Deload/Intensity Phase
Squat…drop this lift
Deadlift…3x3
Military…3x3
Pullups…3x3
Fri…Deload/Intensity Phase
Squat…1x3
Bench…3x3
Row…3x3
*5x5 & 3x3 = warm up to working set weight
**1x5 & 1x3 = pyramid weights through 5x5 or 3x3 with the final set being target set weight
Every routine you listed is good as long as you use them at the right stage for you … these 4wk-4wk programs might be a bit of overkill on complexity if you have been doing well with weekly progress you could try 2-weekly progress for awhile ie like Texas method but with intensity at the end of the 2nd week, spread it out a bit. Or take the routine you listed and compress it into 2 weeks instead of 4 weeks-4 weeks. I am assuming you are currently using a Texas method that has volume on monday and intensity on friday of the same week?
Also you could look at the 5-3-1 that people have been using around here, it is not bad. with a 4 week cycle is tighter than the 8 week one above.
you want the time between volume and intensity to be as tight as possible - but no tighter. if you do a long period of volume and then intensity and you are not advanced enough you won’t be progressing as rapidly as possible, which is OK, but better to add 5lbs in 2 weeks than 5 lbs in 8 weeks.
I tried this type of program and it didn’t work worth a damn for me. I think the reason is I started too heavy in week 1, between 75% and 80% of my max for the 5 sets of 5. I just got so damn burned out trying to progress by 10 pounds each week. My advice would be to not be setting any PR’s on 5x5 until week 3 or preferably week 4. I think there is a calculator out there that gives you all of these suggestions, I’d recommend to follow it or be slightly more conservative.
I know you come from the Starting Strength background as I have. I don’t think 5x5 for deadlift is necessary, 3 sets of 5 should be sufficient and won’t kill you before you try to set a 5 rep max on squat a couple days later. All that being said, I switched to the 13 week Sheiko program in the “Sheiko Shakes up Powerlifitng” article and haven’t looked back. Except on bench, still doing a lot of experimenting with that.
Note also, of course, everyone is different and responds differently to different programs. And also, get different results at different stages in their lives/training. I’ve done plenty of things that worked wonders decades ago that would do nothing today (or would kill me).
the 4 week vol - 4 week intense program can really do nothing for you if it is the wrong program for you at this stage. it certainly isn’t something I would recommend to someone who was a beginner (waste of time) or early novice (who should be on normal 5x5, Bill Starr etc…) the whole point of it is to accumulate stamina and size during the volume phase then use that to blast through new weights in the second phase … get it wrong through and you end up with 8 weeks wasted. (not really but kind of)
as long as you pick a program and know how to know if it is working or not, you will be fine. you sound like you are looking seriously at some good ones.
I’d also say take a look at Sheiko … but Wendlers’ 5-3-1 is also not bad, and flexible, allowing you to add supplementary work to target weak areas, I’d imagine if you have been doing Starr/texas etc… you might be a bit sick of such focus on the main lifts and not done a lot of supplementary stuff so maybe you have some imbalances or something. or just want some variety.
I’m done with weekly progression, I’ve milked everything I can over the past year and got good gains from the texas method.
You mentioned expanding the texas method to 2 weeks or shortening this 2 month program into 1 month, how would I go about doing that the right way?
Thanks both of you.
[quote]elano wrote:
I’m done with weekly progression,[/quote] You mean, someone as advanced as MODOK can progress weekly, but you can’t? Maybe you’re just done with this kind of programming and ultra-minimalistic approach… No offense meant, in any event. What numbers are you putting up now? [quote] I’ve milked everything I can over the past year and got good gains from the texas method.
You mentioned expanding the texas method to 2 weeks or shortening this 2 month program into 1 month, how would I go about doing that the right way?
Thanks both of you.[/quote]
Cephalic_Carnage he might just be hitting the wall repeatedly. He might be old, he might be clean, he could be anything.
Maybe MODOK can progress weekly, but not using the same routine endlessly.
But you have a point, there is no reason to throw out ~weekly~ progression just because the current template is no longer working. It probably is not necessary to jump to 4 week, let alone 8 week progression.
I suspect Elano is so used to the same routine his body is sick of it and won’t put up the progress anymore. This is just my guess. But I’d bet he is kind of bored silly with it as well.
elano, what exactly were you doing? what was the routine?
Setting up a test-day could be beneficial, just to find out your actual 1 rep maxes, then start the program based on those results. I think that using a very old 1 rep max figure that you tried a few months ago, or leaving it to estimation will definitely do you more harm than good on the volume/deload/intensity type program. It’s probably best to test your lifts again if you are going to invest 9 weeks into a program.
Starting too heavy (either through estimation or inflated 1 rep maxes) will hurt you a lot more than low-balling your current maxes and using them in the calculations. A few people here said they started too heavy, which is pretty common, and it will ruin the program.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
You mean, someone as advanced as MODOK can progress weekly, but you can’t? Maybe you’re just done with this kind of programming and ultra-minimalistic approach… No offense meant, in any event. What numbers are you putting up now? [/quote]
No offense taken. All I know is that I’m not consistently setting any PRs weekly anymore no mater what the rep scheme. I’ve tried to continually add 5lbs to my lifts but I think I keep getting residual fatigue from previous workouts since when I back off some I come back stronger.
The past year I’ve was on the texas method and it worked great for many months, It looked just like this:
– Monday – Moderate
Squat 5x5
Bench 5x5
Power clean 5x5
dips 3x5
chinups 3x5
– Wednesday – Light
Front squat 3x3
OHP 3x3
power clean 3x3
Curls 3x8-10
calf raises 3x20
– Friday – Heavy
Squat PR (5RM, 3RM, 2RM, or 1RM)
Bench PR (5RM, 3RM, 2RM, or 1RM)
Deafift PR (5RM, 3RM, 2RM, or 1RM)
weighted situps 2x12-15
Progression was 5 lbs to every exercise, every week. Worked great for about 12 months. Then I had to back the volume off monday because of fatigue and that got me about another month of gains.
the past 7 or 8 weeks I switched to a more split style routine based on lower volume and high intensity. I gained a little strength but kept stalling after a week or 2 but again when I would back off I would come back stronger the next week.
I was using
– Monday –
5,4,3,2,1 pyramid bench
3x8 DB incline bench
3x5 weighted dips
4x3 deadlift off box
– Wednesday –
3,2,1 Power clean
– Thursday –
4x5 close grip bench
cable tricep pulldowns
– Friday –
Squat 4x3
partial squat 2x6
partial deadlift (rack pulls) 4x3
My current lifts are still pretty pathetic but much progress has been made the past 22 months. I had a little pl meet last wed and got 355 squat, 225 bench, 430 deadlift. Judging was strict so the bench was paused and the squat was deep.
By this time next year, I want to get my bench to at least 275, my squat to 400+, my deadlift to 500+.
Is this the Texas method you were following? the Excel template at the bottom of the page
I kind of think the 5-3-1 approach would be good. You can use your competition lifts at maxes and make sure you use the conservative approach … and do accessory work to fix any weaknesses you have.
Yes, that was the template I used. I looked into the 5/3/1 and it looks like a pretty solid program. I might consider doing that instead.
5-3-1 has about 3 or more threads on T-Nation, have a look in powerlifting forum.
… it seems to be getting great results for people of all levels but especially around this level (advanced intermediate) and beyond. You are supposed to buy the ebook from elitefts but you could probably piece it all together from the threads. on the other hand I think elite is having a sale at the moment …
http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?cid=370&m=PD&pid=2976
basically it is 4 days a week.
mon bench
tue deadlift
weds off
thurs overhead
fri squat
sat/sun off
cycles over 4 weeks.
week 1 … 5 reps
week 2 … 3 reps
week 3 … 5, 3 then a max single
week 4 … 5 reps of deloaded much lighter weight
the book is worthwhile. the threads have an insane amount of information and people’s experience. And Wendler pipes in with his 2cents
it IS possible to mess it up, usually by starting too heavy. Apart from that, it is very enjoyable, has a lot going for it - check it out.
Bill Starr’ 5x5(which in reality is ramping sets instead of straight sets if you have read the book) is great, but if you have read Wendlers 531(just buy the damn ebook for $20 if you haven’t already), I would follow the 10% off your current maxes for the bench, squat, press, and deadlift. Better to have success in starting off a bit lighter than going nowhere all the time.
yeah read the book and also I agree, I did not take the lighter approach and realised that was a mistake after 8 weeks. He should rewrite the book and remove the 5% off maxes approach.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]elano wrote:
I’m done with weekly progression,[/quote] You mean, someone as advanced as MODOK can progress weekly, but you can’t? Maybe you’re just done with this kind of programming and ultra-minimalistic approach… No offense meant, in any event. What numbers are you putting up now?
[/quote]
Wait, what? He recommends making smaller increases a week, right, using microplates (or was that you)? Maybe he’s adding 50 lbs a year to a lift.* I can do that adding 5 lbs a month. I think what the OP is saying is: “5-10 lb a week increases are GONE”, and 5-10 lb a week increases is what those simpler 5x5 programs recommend.
OP: I have myself seen great gains on that periodized program, a long with my partner, who literally just did his 8th week last week. He hit a 405 squat monday, at 175, because of that exact program. Prior to that he was doing 5x5 ramping, with weekly increases. Prior to that, starting strength with deloads. He also did a stint with 5/3/1 that didn’t work very well for his bench, and ok for his other lifts; he saw faster progress with the 5x5 programs. He’s been lifting for only one year. I do not know why I detailed his training in reverse; I’m also too lazy to rewrite this paragraph. 
[quote]elano wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
You mean, someone as advanced as MODOK can progress weekly, but you can’t? Maybe you’re just done with this kind of programming and ultra-minimalistic approach… No offense meant, in any event. What numbers are you putting up now? [/quote]
No offense taken. All I know is that I’m not consistently setting any PRs weekly anymore no mater what the rep scheme. I’ve tried to continually add 5lbs to my lifts but I think I keep getting residual fatigue from previous workouts since when I back off some I come back stronger.
The past year I’ve was on the texas method and it worked great for many months, It looked just like this:
– Monday – Moderate
Squat 5x5
Bench 5x5
Power clean 5x5
dips 3x5
chinups 3x5
– Wednesday – Light
Front squat 3x3
OHP 3x3
power clean 3x3
Curls 3x8-10
calf raises 3x20
– Friday – Heavy
Squat PR (5RM, 3RM, 2RM, or 1RM)
Bench PR (5RM, 3RM, 2RM, or 1RM)
Deafift PR (5RM, 3RM, 2RM, or 1RM)
weighted situps 2x12-15
Progression was 5 lbs to every exercise, every week. Worked great for about 12 months. Then I had to back the volume off monday because of fatigue and that got me about another month of gains.
the past 7 or 8 weeks I switched to a more split style routine based on lower volume and high intensity. I gained a little strength but kept stalling after a week or 2 but again when I would back off I would come back stronger the next week.
I was using
– Monday –
5,4,3,2,1 pyramid bench
3x8 DB incline bench
3x5 weighted dips
4x3 deadlift off box
– Wednesday –
3,2,1 Power clean
– Thursday –
4x5 close grip bench
cable tricep pulldowns
– Friday –
Squat 4x3
partial squat 2x6
partial deadlift (rack pulls) 4x3
My current lifts are still pretty pathetic but much progress has been made the past 22 months. I had a little pl meet last wed and got 355 squat, 225 bench, 430 deadlift. Judging was strict so the bench was paused and the squat was deep.
By this time next year, I want to get my bench to at least 275, my squat to 400+, my deadlift to 500+.[/quote]
Do you have very long arms?
Because honestly man, I’m pretty sure you could get your bench to 315 easy within that time, maybe even 315 for reps…
I’ve been trying some of CT’s stuff with a couple of locals, we got both of them to go from benching (close-ish grip like I use, PL setup, no bouncing) 30/40Kgx3 respectively (i.e. total beginner stage) to 110Kgx3 (242 lbs x3, not maximal, that is their current “max force set”, i.e. what they can still accelerate pretty well/dominate) within half a year… And I have virtually no control over their diet.
Both are up from 120-130 lbs to ~170-180 bw (obviously train more with bbing in mind, so they get a bunch of other lifts as well).
The one guy squats 395x3 MFS (below parallel, but not ATG), and pulls in the 400’s sumo for a triple MFS, the other is a little weaker but I don’t recall the numbers. Teaching them how to squat wasn’t easy, even though you’d think that soccer players would have some basic leg-muscle “awareness”.
Both use the same 2-way split, usually 2on, 1 off or whenever they have time/don’t feel like shit.
Just saying, all those standard 5x5 programs and the like are all fine and nice, but they’re just one of many options… And I truly believe that there are way better ones out there, especially for guys who aren’t still busy getting their squat to 225.
Now technically you don’t always make progress from week to week with CT’s stuff, but almost every time and usually you can add a solid 5-15 lbs, sometimes more, sometimes less.
[quote]goochadamg wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]elano wrote:
I’m done with weekly progression,[/quote] You mean, someone as advanced as MODOK can progress weekly, but you can’t? Maybe you’re just done with this kind of programming and ultra-minimalistic approach… No offense meant, in any event. What numbers are you putting up now?
[/quote]
Wait, what? He recommends making smaller increases a week, right, using microplates (or was that you)? Maybe he’s adding 50 lbs a year to a lift.* I can do that adding 5 lbs a month [/quote] What kind of comparison is that? What I mean is that elano is likely not yet at the stage where that is necessary… I’m not even trying to argue, I just meant that there are other options than some 5x5-based stuff which will likely allow him to continue progressing weekly (or almost every week) by a good chunk of weight. Especially on the bench and deadlift…
[quote]
think what the OP is saying is: “5-10 lb a week increases are GONE”, and 5-10 lb a week increases is what those simpler 5x5 programs recommend. [/quote] FWIW, on DC you tend to get +10/+20 or even more lbs increases every 2 weeks (every time you repeat an exercise… That equates to 5-10 lbs per week…) for all big exercises, presses, pulls… Until you stall on that exercise a blast or 4 later…
And that’s for works for people way stronger than elano, and yes, drug-free guys too.
It is certainly possible to set up routines to allow you to progress almost every time you hit an exercise even past the beginner stage.
5/3/1 bench/OHP is a problem for quite a few people… Takes a good assistance template to fix imo. I don’t like the stock-ones for that.
But yeah, 5/3/1 is also a great option in general.
[quote]Magarhe wrote:
5-3-1 has about 3 or more threads on T-Nation, have a look in powerlifting forum.
… it seems to be getting great results for people of all levels but especially around this level (advanced intermediate) and beyond. You are supposed to buy the ebook from elitefts but you could probably piece it all together from the threads. on the other hand I think elite is having a sale at the moment …
http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?cid=370&m=PD&pid=2976
basically it is 4 days a week. [/quote] Nah… Standard frequency was 3 days per week:
Mon: Bench
Wed: Dead
Fri: OHP
Mon2: Squat
…
Just saying.
Some people adapted it to 1-week waves afterwards (matt K for example, me too :), but depending on your assistance template that can get you to stall out early particularly on the presses. [quote]
mon bench
tue deadlift
weds off
thurs overhead
fri squat
sat/sun off
cycles over 4 weeks.
week 1 … 5 reps
week 2 … 3 reps
week 3 … 5, 3 then a max single [/quote] Huh? There is no maximal training in 5/3/1… Also, one usually reps out on the last of the 3 work sets each week but on the deload. Unless you don’t feel well or something. [quote]
week 4 … 5 reps of deloaded much lighter weight
the book is worthwhile. the threads have an insane amount of information and people’s experience. And Wendler pipes in with his 2cents
it IS possible to mess it up, usually by starting too heavy. Apart from that, it is very enjoyable, has a lot going for it - check it out.
[/quote]
Well, I second that for sure.
C_C,
If you would be willing to talk in detail about the program you set-up for those lucky blokes that would be great! I have a decent squat and deadlift but my bench is an unmitigated disaster.
How narrow is your grip?