Thanks Cephalic_Carnage & Haas
Eager to try out the Yates template =)
Would you advocate morning cardio on OFF days or after workout to increase metabolism & keep fat in check during mass gaining phrase. And at what intensity?
On the side of nutrition, would be recommend a carb-cycling diet or DC-inspired cut off diet to complement the Yates Mass program?
[quote]phrangan wrote:
Thanks Cephalic_Carnage & Haas
Eager to try out the Yates template =)
Would you advocate morning cardio on OFF days or after workout to increase metabolism & keep fat in check during mass gaining phrase. And at what intensity? [/quote] Fasted am cardio (with some green tea extract + water or so in you) for 30-40 mins on off-days or up to 6 days a week (not leg day), low-intensity (brisk walk around the block) if youāre following DC guidelines for your diet. (p+f/+p+c, only lean protein + trace carbs and fiber after cutoff, 2 grams protein per lb of bodyweight, etc).
Otherwise, itās really up to youā¦ If youāre too lazy/tired for am cardio, just do it after training or mid-morning (as long as itās not directly before your weight session) and use whatever protocol you likeā¦ [quote]
On the side of nutrition, would be recommend a carb-cycling diet or DC-inspired cut off diet to complement the Yates Mass program?
[/quote]
Both will work, but imo the DC variant requires some experience and a lot of common sense 
Carb Cycling (Iād go with Shelby here) is probably easier to use for less experienced trainees (though technically more complicated).
Pick one and stick to itā¦ Anabolic Diet should work as well, though I personally prefer to have some carbs in my diet at all timesā¦
Hmm, a couple of things:
I had a dismal leg workout last night, everything felt like shit and I couldnāt even do 6 reps on the leg press with a weight I did for 18 reps last time. I donāt know what happened, though I have just gotten over a cold and so. Next time around Iām back squatting, weāll see how it goes.
A friend of mine who has gotten himself obese is going to be joining me for training. I figure he can do most of the stuff I can, but being overweight has put a lot of stress on his backā¦ Iāll have to be careful. I figure he can do either 1-arm DB rows or a chest supported row for back, and Iāll probably have to avoid any low rep stuff while he learns to squat and such. I was thinking he can do 12,8,5, then workweight at 8-12 maybe for squats? I donāt know, lol
[quote]Mr.Purple wrote:
Hmm, a couple of things:
I had a dismal leg workout last night, everything felt like shit and I couldnāt even do 6 reps on the leg press with a weight I did for 18 reps last time. I donāt know what happened, though I have just gotten over a cold and so. Next time around Iām back squatting, weāll see how it goes.
A friend of mine who has gotten himself obese is going to be joining me for training. I figure he can do most of the stuff I can, but being overweight has put a lot of stress on his backā¦ Iāll have to be careful. I figure he can do either 1-arm DB rows or a chest supported row for back, and Iāll probably have to avoid any low rep stuff while he learns to squat and such. I was thinking he can do 12,8,5, then workweight at 8-12 maybe for squats? I donāt know, lol
[/quote]
If heās just learning technique, you can have him do a few non-failure work-sets and watch elitefts vids
As for your leg dayā¦ Hmm. If you have a day where you feel like shit, make it an off-day.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Mr.Purple wrote:
Hmm, a couple of things:
I had a dismal leg workout last night, everything felt like shit and I couldnāt even do 6 reps on the leg press with a weight I did for 18 reps last time. I donāt know what happened, though I have just gotten over a cold and so. Next time around Iām back squatting, weāll see how it goes.
A friend of mine who has gotten himself obese is going to be joining me for training. I figure he can do most of the stuff I can, but being overweight has put a lot of stress on his backā¦ Iāll have to be careful. I figure he can do either 1-arm DB rows or a chest supported row for back, and Iāll probably have to avoid any low rep stuff while he learns to squat and such. I was thinking he can do 12,8,5, then workweight at 8-12 maybe for squats? I donāt know, lol
If heās just learning technique, you can have him do a few non-failure work-sets and watch elitefts vids
As for your leg dayā¦ Hmm. If you have a day where you feel like shit, make it an off-day.
[/quote]
It wasnāt that I was feeling like shit in general, just that when I started leg pressing my quads and hips felt beat up and weak. I donāt think I was recovered from the last leg session yet. Also, I just donāt know about that leg pressā¦ itās hard to keep my ass from rising off the pad and I just donāt like it much at all. Iām thinking of trying out smith front squats for a widowmaker, and back squat for the heavy set every leg day. If it turns out to be to much low back stress, Iāll drop doing rack pulls and just do the t-bars. (Instead of rotating them as I do now)
Whatchoo think?
[quote]Mr.Purple wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Mr.Purple wrote:
Hmm, a couple of things:
I had a dismal leg workout last night, everything felt like shit and I couldnāt even do 6 reps on the leg press with a weight I did for 18 reps last time. I donāt know what happened, though I have just gotten over a cold and so. Next time around Iām back squatting, weāll see how it goes.
A friend of mine who has gotten himself obese is going to be joining me for training. I figure he can do most of the stuff I can, but being overweight has put a lot of stress on his backā¦ Iāll have to be careful. I figure he can do either 1-arm DB rows or a chest supported row for back, and Iāll probably have to avoid any low rep stuff while he learns to squat and such. I was thinking he can do 12,8,5, then workweight at 8-12 maybe for squats? I donāt know, lol
If heās just learning technique, you can have him do a few non-failure work-sets and watch elitefts vids
As for your leg dayā¦ Hmm. If you have a day where you feel like shit, make it an off-day.
It wasnāt that I was feeling like shit in general, just that when I started leg pressing my quads and hips felt beat up and weak. I donāt think I was recovered from the last leg session yet. Also, I just donāt know about that leg pressā¦ itās hard to keep my ass from rising off the pad and I just donāt like it much at all. Iām thinking of trying out smith front squats for a widowmaker, and back squat for the heavy set every leg day. If it turns out to be to much low back stress, Iāll drop doing rack pulls and just do the t-bars. (Instead of rotating them as I do now)
Whatchoo think?
[/quote]
Yup, give that a try.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
phrangan wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
phrangan wrote:
Cephalic Carnage
Currently recovering from a shoulder strain What caused it? . Should be ok to train next week.
In the past few months i have been following the bodybuilding template faithfully however things are starting to get stale.
Hope you could help me outline a pure bodybuiling program =)
Your assistance is greatly appreciated & anticipated
A pure bodybuilding routineā¦ How many days a week do you want to train?
Minor strain doing incline smith BP last Fri.
4-5 days
Thanks C_C
Well, other than big beyond belief (only do that one if youāre sure you got your exercise technique and setup right and can eat a ton and take a lot of punishment, joint/tendon-wiseā¦), you could do the good old yates 3-way for as many days per week as you wantā¦ Gives you higher frequency than most routines, but doesnāt bother the joints much. Way less volume than BBB.
Of course a regular 4-way or 5-way would also be an option.
The yates 3-way is found in the āpyramid or notā (or so) -thread.
Finally, hereās a 4-way into which you could incorporate Wendler 5/3/1 (use the loading parameter table where wave one is 65%, 75%, 85%, donāt forget to take 10 percent off your max, and always go for extra reps on the last set except on the deload weeks. When deloading, donāt go to failure on your assistance work or even use a little less weight or so)
Day 1 - Chest/Back
-Low-Incline Bench 5/3/1
-Flat DB presses or HS machine presses ramped up over 3 sets or so. 6-12 on top-set, or 8-15, whatever you want (7-9?).
-Bent-Over Rows 5/3/1 (could do rack pulls or deadlifts here, but youāll then pretty much be limited to machine work on leg day if you donāt want too much low-back overlap) If you do rows here, you pretty much donāt really row with your biceps or anything. You sort of shrug the shoulders backwards and retract your scapulae, as if you wanted to get into PL bench position. That should bring the bar pretty much against your abs already, unless you have very long arms. Itās important not to turn this into just a bicep+lat exercise, but actually hit your backthickness musculature.
-Rack Chins/Pulldowns/Pullups/HS lat workā¦ 3-4 sets, ramped, 8-15 reps on top set
Day 2 - off
Day 3 - Legs
-Back Squats 5/3/1 (or front-squats or whatever)
(could do a leg-press widowmaker here, no warm-ups necessary, normally)
-Parillo Stiff-legged Deadlifts or reverse hypers or glute-ham-raises or lying leg curlsā¦ 3-4 sets, might want to go a little higher in the reps, 8-15 where you canā¦ Obviously difficult with glute-hams.
-Calf work 3-4 sets, rampedā¦ Either DC calf-protocol or a regular set.
Day 4 - Delts(+Traps if needed)
-Overhead Press variant (Smith High Incline Shoulder Presses or HS or whatever) 5/3/1
-Lateral Raise Machine 3-4 sets, ramped, 8-15
-Reverse Pec Deck 3-4 sets ramped, 8-15
-Shrug Variant (if you want), 3-4 sets ramped, 8-15.
Day 5 - Arms
-Tricep Press variant (In-Human Smith, Wide-RGB Smith with DC grip, Elbows tucked CGP PL setup, HS Dip Machine, Close-grip Board Presses elbows tuckedā¦) 4 sets ramped, 6-12 or 8-15, your call. Alternatively you could even use 5/3/1 here, too.
-Extension and/or pullover variant (PJR pullover/extensions, Lying EZ extensions from a dead stop behind the headā¦ Lie either on the floor and donāt use bigger plates than the 22.5ās or whatever you guys have, or lie on a bench and let the bar rest on the bench behind your head. Keep upper arms at an inclineā¦, Rolling DB Extensions, Face-Away/Scott Extensions) 3-4 sets ramped, 8-15
-Alt. DB Curls, EZ Curls, whatever. 3-4 sets ramped, 6-12 (or 5/3/1 if itās a bar-curl and you want to try that out
-Pinwheel Curls or Alt. Hammers or whatever, 3-4 sets ramped, 8-15
(you can do some machine curls + pushdowns here if you want)
-off
-off
Ok, this is a fairly basic BB routine, 5/3/1 imo doesnāt work too well with higher frequencies, but it should be ok to use with this one. Waves are 1 week, then.
You donāt have to use that routine though, itās just an example of how to incorporate 5/3/1ā¦ The yates one or BBB work very well, too.
[/quote]
Cephalic_Carnage
What is your opinion if i insert an extra Quad workout on Day 5 (Arms)in order to focus/specialised the quadā¦ Wanna be become a mini Quadizilla =)
[quote]phrangan wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
phrangan wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
phrangan wrote:
Cephalic Carnage
Currently recovering from a shoulder strain What caused it? . Should be ok to train next week.
In the past few months i have been following the bodybuilding template faithfully however things are starting to get stale.
Hope you could help me outline a pure bodybuiling program =)
Your assistance is greatly appreciated & anticipated
A pure bodybuilding routineā¦ How many days a week do you want to train?
Minor strain doing incline smith BP last Fri.
4-5 days
Thanks C_C
Well, other than big beyond belief (only do that one if youāre sure you got your exercise technique and setup right and can eat a ton and take a lot of punishment, joint/tendon-wiseā¦), you could do the good old yates 3-way for as many days per week as you wantā¦ Gives you higher frequency than most routines, but doesnāt bother the joints much. Way less volume than BBB.
Of course a regular 4-way or 5-way would also be an option.
The yates 3-way is found in the āpyramid or notā (or so) -thread.
Finally, hereās a 4-way into which you could incorporate Wendler 5/3/1 (use the loading parameter table where wave one is 65%, 75%, 85%, donāt forget to take 10 percent off your max, and always go for extra reps on the last set except on the deload weeks. When deloading, donāt go to failure on your assistance work or even use a little less weight or so)
Day 1 - Chest/Back
-Low-Incline Bench 5/3/1
-Flat DB presses or HS machine presses ramped up over 3 sets or so. 6-12 on top-set, or 8-15, whatever you want (7-9?).
-Bent-Over Rows 5/3/1 (could do rack pulls or deadlifts here, but youāll then pretty much be limited to machine work on leg day if you donāt want too much low-back overlap) If you do rows here, you pretty much donāt really row with your biceps or anything. You sort of shrug the shoulders backwards and retract your scapulae, as if you wanted to get into PL bench position. That should bring the bar pretty much against your abs already, unless you have very long arms. Itās important not to turn this into just a bicep+lat exercise, but actually hit your backthickness musculature.
-Rack Chins/Pulldowns/Pullups/HS lat workā¦ 3-4 sets, ramped, 8-15 reps on top set
Day 2 - off
Day 3 - Legs
-Back Squats 5/3/1 (or front-squats or whatever)
(could do a leg-press widowmaker here, no warm-ups necessary, normally)
-Parillo Stiff-legged Deadlifts or reverse hypers or glute-ham-raises or lying leg curlsā¦ 3-4 sets, might want to go a little higher in the reps, 8-15 where you canā¦ Obviously difficult with glute-hams.
-Calf work 3-4 sets, rampedā¦ Either DC calf-protocol or a regular set.
Day 4 - Delts(+Traps if needed)
-Overhead Press variant (Smith High Incline Shoulder Presses or HS or whatever) 5/3/1
-Lateral Raise Machine 3-4 sets, ramped, 8-15
-Reverse Pec Deck 3-4 sets ramped, 8-15
-Shrug Variant (if you want), 3-4 sets ramped, 8-15.
Day 5 - Arms
-Tricep Press variant (In-Human Smith, Wide-RGB Smith with DC grip, Elbows tucked CGP PL setup, HS Dip Machine, Close-grip Board Presses elbows tuckedā¦) 4 sets ramped, 6-12 or 8-15, your call. Alternatively you could even use 5/3/1 here, too.
-Extension and/or pullover variant (PJR pullover/extensions, Lying EZ extensions from a dead stop behind the headā¦ Lie either on the floor and donāt use bigger plates than the 22.5ās or whatever you guys have, or lie on a bench and let the bar rest on the bench behind your head. Keep upper arms at an inclineā¦, Rolling DB Extensions, Face-Away/Scott Extensions) 3-4 sets ramped, 8-15
-Alt. DB Curls, EZ Curls, whatever. 3-4 sets ramped, 6-12 (or 5/3/1 if itās a bar-curl and you want to try that out
-Pinwheel Curls or Alt. Hammers or whatever, 3-4 sets ramped, 8-15
(you can do some machine curls + pushdowns here if you want)
-off
-off
Ok, this is a fairly basic BB routine, 5/3/1 imo doesnāt work too well with higher frequencies, but it should be ok to use with this one. Waves are 1 week, then.
You donāt have to use that routine though, itās just an example of how to incorporate 5/3/1ā¦ The yates one or BBB work very well, too.
Cephalic_Carnage
What is your opinion if i insert an extra Quad workout on Day 5 (Arms)in order to focus/specialised the quadā¦ Wanna be become a mini Quadizilla =) [/quote]
On that routine, youāre probably better off doing a dc-style widowmaker (in the hack squat machine, for example, all the way downā¦ Then just get a lot stronger on that widowmaker exerciseā¦
I donāt know if itās a good idea to have another quad workout on arms day unless you skip the widow on leg dayā¦ Youāll have to see how well you recover from that, then.
CC
I am interested where you got the source of the dorian 3 day split from?
It seems pretty low in volume - 3 exercises for legs
Also what is the reasoning to do the delts before the back? Was it to simply bring the delts up?
Hey i think me and my friend are gonna switch out PJR for another triceps exercise. The dumbbells are starting to be a pain in the ass to get into position and then thereās always the chance we drop it on our face lol. Just curious what triceps exercise you would go with?
[quote]CantStop wrote:
CC
I am interested where you got the source of the dorian 3 day split from? [/quote] Huh, no idea man. Picked it up somewhere ages ago, but I think Thibs and someone else also mentioned it on the forums here. [quote]
It seems pretty low in volume - 3 exercises for legs
Also what is the reasoning to do the delts before the back? Was it to simply bring the delts up?[/quote]
I modified the original split some.
After a quad widowmaker (which wasnāt there in the old routine), you really shouldnāt be in the mood for anything other than crawling into bedā¦ That plus the higher overall frequency results in less exercises for legsā¦ I mean, you do Back Squats 4-6, then widowmaker, then Glute-Ham raises or whatever (or do them before quad work), then some heavy calf stuffā¦ If you still want to do more, then youāre probably just not pushing yourself as you should.
That being said, you can add some more exercisesā¦ I just personally donāt see the point in doing that with this type of split and as a drug-free trainee. You want to get strong in some mid-high rep ranges on key exercises for each major muscle-group, not do a lot of exercises just so you can feel hardcore 
You can however do 2 work sets per exercise if you want. (at different rep ranges, preferably)
On some exercises (quad work, rack pulls/deads) youād be doing that anyway.
Delts before back? Same thing. After heavy BO rows or Krocs or rack pulls, Iām really not able to give my all on my shoulder workā¦ Also, a fatigued mid/upper back hinders overhead work progression/strengthā¦
On the other hand, I can do overhead work and laterals and still go superheavy on rack pulls no problemā¦
Thatās stuff from my DC days actually (the widowmaker, stretches if you want to do them, doing the most demanding exercises last, usually).
[quote]Matthaeus wrote:
Hey i think me and my friend are gonna switch out PJR for another triceps exercise. The dumbbells are starting to be a pain in the ass to get into position and then thereās always the chance we drop it on our face lol. Just curious what triceps exercise you would go with?[/quote]
Instead of PJRāsā¦ Dead Skulls (EZ Extensions, lying on the floor or on a bench and bringing the bar down behind your head, letting it rest on bench/floor [only use smaller plates when doing them on the floor, like 25ās or whatever it is you guys have at your gym), then explosively extending it back upā¦ Upper arms stop at an incline though, donāt go all the way to vertical).
Jason Wojo lying tricep extensions - YouTube ā there. I personally prefer a wider (curl-width) grip, but you gotta try both and see which you prefer.
How is the 2x per week frequency experiment worked for you C_C?
[quote]ajweins wrote:
How is the 2x per week frequency experiment worked for you C_C? [/quote]
Too much for meā¦ I wish Iād actually done BBB at the beginning of my training (after getting form/technique down), could possibly have accelerated my gains quite a bitā¦ But these days Iām just not able to do that without my body complaining.
And I want to stay injury free, so Iām back to lower frequencies now. A 3-way over 4 days per week or similarā¦ Weāll seeā¦ Still thinking about what to do and in the meantime, Iām doing 5/3/1 on a 4-way split with each wave being 1 week.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
ajweins wrote:
How is the 2x per week frequency experiment worked for you C_C?
Too much for meā¦ I wish Iād actually done BBB at the beginning of my training (after getting form/technique down), could possibly have accelerated my gains quite a bitā¦ But these days Iām just not able to do that without my body complaining.
And I want to stay injury free, so Iām back to lower frequencies now. A 3-way over 4 days per week or similarā¦ Weāll seeā¦ Still thinking about what to do and in the meantime, Iām doing 5/3/1 on a 4-way split with each wave being 1 week.
[/quote]
At your stage how do you determine if something isnāt working? I mean at 280+ Iām sure you wouldnāt go by weight, do you go by strength and how you feel like your joints and everything? Even strength doesnāt seem like it could go up that much at this point just because youāve already progressed so much.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
ajweins wrote:
How is the 2x per week frequency experiment worked for you C_C?
Too much for meā¦ I wish Iād actually done BBB at the beginning of my training (after getting form/technique down), could possibly have accelerated my gains quite a bitā¦ But these days Iām just not able to do that without my body complaining.
And I want to stay injury free, so Iām back to lower frequencies now. A 3-way over 4 days per week or similarā¦ Weāll seeā¦ Still thinking about what to do and in the meantime, Iām doing 5/3/1 on a 4-way split with each wave being 1 week.
At your stage how do you determine if something isnāt working? I mean at 280+ Iām sure you wouldnāt go by weight, do you go by strength and how you feel like your joints and everything? Even strength doesnāt seem like it could go up that much at this point just because youāve already progressed so much.
[/quote]
I go by the logbook of course when it comes to how well a routine/system is working for muscle/strength gainsā¦ I pretty much know that if I go up in weight on my 5-20RMās without my form changing drastically, Iām also getting bigger.
And yeahā¦ If my joints start complaining or the tendons, then I know something has to change.
Thatās the nice thing about standard bb training + ramping and all thatā¦
Itās not all that hard on the body, if youāre smart with exercise selection (avoid traditional skullcrushers, dips etc) and pay attention to how your joints and tendons feel and you get your technique right etcā¦ Then you should be able to get big and/or train for a very long time with little to no injuries happening.
So thatās why I always come back to standard bb and generally fairly low-volume training.
Are you ever going to go back to DC training? Is lack of a proper gym still the reason for you not doing it?
This thread is gold. I learnt tons in all of 30 minutes. Seems to have turned into a āHelp me Cephalic Carnage, youāre my only hopeā thread though, lol. So, anyway, figured Iād get in on some of the action while I have the opportunity if thatās alright.
Iām currently trying to do a body re-comp, and it seems you favour the carbs (and fat) cutoff + fasted am cardio. The problem is my cardio would be right before I work out, so - besides leg + back day if Iām doing deadlifts - if I walked to the gym (1 mile), then spent some amount of time on one of the cardio machines (Iām thinking 10-20 minutes, if this is a good idea how long would you suggest? is the walk enough), after which I chug down a post workout shake (carbs + protein) to give me some energy and stop me going catabolic. Could that work well?
Also adding in some low intensity cardio on off days (30-40 minutes of whatever) - maybe some circuits/complexes if it wonāt interfere with my recovery. Iām doing a 5-7 day split, these days that will probably be 5 most of the time, but I was doing 6 for a couple months, and the occasional 7.
or would you just recommend in my case that I do the PWO cardio, in which case Iāll contact Sentoguy as you have suggested in a previous post
Thanks, and I feel like a douche asking questions in a āall about CC threadā
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I go by the logbook of course when it comes to how well a routine/system is working for muscle/strength gainsā¦ I pretty much know that if I go up in weight on my 5-20RMās without my form changing drastically, Iām also getting bigger.
[/quote]
At your already advanced size and strength what kind of strength increases are you looking for each session? Still adding 1-2 reps/5lb. each workout by switching up exercises frequently enough?
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
At your already advanced size and strength what kind of strength increases are you looking for each session? Still adding 1-2 reps/5lb. each workout by switching up exercises frequently enough?
[/quote]
Knowing him he throws on 20kgs just for fun onto every exercise, drinks some German Beer (has magical properties) and does it 
His Squat is 280kg / 620lbs or around there feck sake lol.
You have 25kg plates in your gym Ceph or you hog every last one of the 20kg ones ?
6 20kg plates and 1 10kg plate a side mother of god iād be FAR to worried to stand under that
Up to 110kg now, ONLY 170kg behind ! I thought i was doing well 2 20kg plates a side lol then he told me his Squat number 
Roll on the end of Super Growth i hope to add another 20-40kg to it