Cephalic Carnage: How Do You Train?

[quote]GodOfSteele wrote:

Ich verstehe. Nice. I´ll get the book.
Thanks

[/quote]

Just want to mention again that I only use the 5/3/1 loading parameters etc for my main exercises (as one would do in the actual 5/3/1 system), but “assistance” work is done regular bb style, all ramped and sometimes rest-paused.

My waves are shorter (1 week each) and I do all 5/3/1 lifts in that week…

Jim’s actual bodybuilding assistance template is either meant as a joke, or he really doesn’t know how bodybuilders actually train… It’s perfectly stereotypical: Lots of straight sets (at specific loading parameters), lots of exercises, total waste of time and completely counter-productive to strength/size gain imo.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
GodOfSteele wrote:

Ich verstehe. Nice. I´ll get the book.
Thanks

Just want to mention again that I only use the 5/3/1 loading parameters etc for my main exercises (as one would do in the actual 5/3/1 system), but “assistance” work is done regular bb style, all ramped and sometimes rest-paused.

My waves are shorter (1 week each) and I do all 5/3/1 lifts in that week…

Jim’s actual bodybuilding assistance template is either meant as a joke, or he really doesn’t know how bodybuilders actually train… It’s perfectly stereotypical: Lots of straight sets (at specific loading parameters), lots of exercises, total waste of time and completely counter-productive to strength/size gain imo.

[/quote]

I have noticed this too with some of Dave Tate’s programs that he has written for more bodybuilding purposes. I was really looking forward to trying them but the volume is enough to kill me. However, he does have a lot of injuries and is not really looking to progress a ton in strength like I am.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

The reps are not really low.

5/3/1 allows you to go to failure/close to it (rep out past your rep goal of the day) on your last set of every 5/3/1 exercise each wave but on the deload one…

So if it’s 3*3 week then I only need to do
weight 1 * 3
weight 2 * 3
weight 3 * 3, but I may rep out here and get 5-7 reps or so.

5/3/1 works with a reduced/underestimated max and various loading parameters, cycles intensity etc… You need to read the ebook (one of the 2).

You never have to max out on 5/3/1 or do a double or anything, you generally get more reps on your last set and it’s not that dissimilar to standard bb ramping… Just that the weights used are closer together and that you cycle intensity.

So to answer your question, yeah, those extra reps you get on your last set pretty much make this suited for bbing…

[/quote]

so your not trying to get near failure with the prescribed reps? If its 5/3/1 why is the “1” not near failure? and what about later on as the weight significantly goes up, wouldn’t you not be able to rep out the last set anymore?

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

The reps are not really low.

5/3/1 allows you to go to failure/close to it (rep out past your rep goal of the day) on your last set of every 5/3/1 exercise each wave but on the deload one…

So if it’s 3*3 week then I only need to do
weight 1 * 3
weight 2 * 3
weight 3 * 3, but I may rep out here and get 5-7 reps or so.

5/3/1 works with a reduced/underestimated max and various loading parameters, cycles intensity etc… You need to read the ebook (one of the 2).

You never have to max out on 5/3/1 or do a double or anything, you generally get more reps on your last set and it’s not that dissimilar to standard bb ramping… Just that the weights used are closer together and that you cycle intensity.

So to answer your question, yeah, those extra reps you get on your last set pretty much make this suited for bbing…

so your not trying to get near failure with the prescribed reps? If its 5/3/1 why is the “1” not near failure? and what about later on as the weight significantly goes up, wouldn’t you not be able to rep out the last set anymore?
[/quote]

You really need to read the book or I need to explain the actual system to you… 5/3/1 is just the name.

There are 4 waves (in my case, each lasts for one week).
Each wave has 4 5/3/1 sessions/exercises in it (the other exercises/sessions are regular stuff).

wave one is 35, ramped (but you stick to exact percentages, can rep out past 5 on the last set, I usually get 7-8 here or so)
wave two is 3
3, ramped (last set you get the option to rep out past 3, I tend to get 5-6 or so)
wave three is 5/3/1 (i.e. 1 set of 5, one heavier of 3, and one even heavier of one rep… Where you can rep out and I get around 5 here, usually)
wave four is 3*5 but with light weight for deload purposes

the sets above are all considered work sets I guess, but the first two are pretty much warm-ups… So it’s really just like ramping, and you do even more warm-ups before your three 5/3/1 / 33 / 35 /whatever sets.

Percentages of weight used are based on your 1rm, but you take 10 percent off your 1rm before calculating your working weights…

It’s a bit complicated to explain here, as you can see.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

You really need to read the book or I need to explain the actual system to you… 5/3/1 is just the name.

There are 4 waves (in my case, each lasts for one week).
Each wave has 4 5/3/1 sessions/exercises in it (the other exercises/sessions are regular stuff).

wave one is 35, ramped (but you stick to exact percentages, can rep out past 5 on the last set, I usually get 7-8 here or so)
wave two is 3
3, ramped (last set you get the option to rep out past 3, I tend to get 5-6 or so)
wave three is 5/3/1 (i.e. 1 set of 5, one heavier of 3, and one even heavier of one rep… Where you can rep out and I get around 5 here, usually)
wave four is 3*5 but with light weight for deload purposes

the sets above are all considered work sets I guess, but the first two are pretty much warm-ups… So it’s really just like ramping, and you do even more warm-ups before your three 5/3/1 / 33 / 35 /whatever sets.

Percentages of weight used are based on your 1rm, but you take 10 percent off your 1rm before calculating your working weights…

It’s a bit complicated to explain here, as you can see.

[/quote]

Ok that seems about what I was thinking because I’ve seen the excel spreadsheet for it but I just thought that if he said “3x3” he wanted you to use a weight that would have you going 1 rep short of actually failing with 3 reps on the last set. same for 5x5 or 5/3/1. I guess thats not how it is

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

Ok that seems about what I was thinking because I’ve seen the excel spreadsheet for it but I just thought that if he said “3x3” he wanted you to use a weight that would have you going 1 rep short of actually failing with 3 reps on the last set. same for 5x5 or 5/3/1. I guess thats not how it is[/quote]

No. You have 2 slightly different tables for loading parameters to choose from. Both work with percentages of your max-10%.

This is the one I’m using (based on 1RM-10%, using slightly larger weight jumps on ramp sets on some waves compared to the other available table):

Wave 1. Warmup, 65%x5, 75%x5, 85%x5+
Wave 2. Warmup, 70%x3, 80%x3, 90%x3+
Wave 3. Warmup, 75%x5, 85%x3, 95%x1+
Wave 4 (Deload) - 60%x5, 65%x5, 70%x5

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
pumped340 wrote:

Ok that seems about what I was thinking because I’ve seen the excel spreadsheet for it but I just thought that if he said “3x3” he wanted you to use a weight that would have you going 1 rep short of actually failing with 3 reps on the last set. same for 5x5 or 5/3/1. I guess thats not how it is

No. You have 2 slightly different tables for loading parameters to choose from. Both work with percentages of your max-10%.

This is the one I’m using (based on 1RM-10%, using slightly larger weight jumps on ramp sets on some waves compared to the other available table):

Wave 1. Warmup, 65%x5, 75%x5, 85%x5+
Wave 2. Warmup, 70%x3, 80%x3, 90%x3+
Wave 3. Warmup, 75%x5, 85%x3, 95%x1+
Wave 4 (Deload) - 60%x5, 65%x5, 70%x5

[/quote]

Oh ok well the percents are similar to whats on the spreadsheet I have if I remember correctly. I’ll have to try that sometime after doing ramping for awhile (starting that in a few weeks when I can start training again)

C_C, do you have any effective way to “extreme stretch” your triceps? I have a hard time feeling anything in them.

Any useful information that I know about weight lifting, definately came from this guy. Including my current routine that has helped me more than any other routine I’ve ever tried. I don’t think I’d even be dissapointed if he started charging me :stuck_out_tongue:

I also have the utmost respect for this man (mostly for tolerating my never ending newbie questions lol)

[quote]howie424 wrote:
Any useful information that I know about weight lifting, definately came from this guy. Including my current routine that has helped me more than any other routine I’ve ever tried. I don’t think I’d even be dissapointed if he started charging me :P[/quote] <–Don’t tempt me :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
C_C, do you have any effective way to “extreme stretch” your triceps? I have a hard time feeling anything in them.[/quote]

Judging from you avatar, you may need more mass on them first. (no offense)

I’ve gotten a lot of feedback from guys here who have trouble with the arm stretches and it seems that it’s mostly due to their muscles being too small still and too limber, so to speak.

You can actually hurt your elbows when trying the stock tricep stretch with arms that are still too small it seems…

I’d go with the dip stretch, can be done on a parallel dip machine station as well… Gotta play around with it until it feels right…

Also, it helps to have a real pump going in the muscle you want to stretch as that makes the muscle tighter essentially…

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
That One Guy wrote:
C_C, do you have any effective way to “extreme stretch” your triceps? I have a hard time feeling anything in them.

Judging from you avatar, you may need more mass on them first. (no offense)

I’ve gotten a lot of feedback from guys here who have trouble with the arm stretches and it seems that it’s mostly due to their muscles being too small still and too limber, so to speak.

You can actually hurt your elbows when trying the stock tricep stretch with arms that are still too small it seems…

I’d go with the dip stretch, can be done on a parallel dip machine station as well… Gotta play around with it until it feels right…

Also, it helps to have a real pump going in the muscle you want to stretch as that makes the muscle tighter essentially…
[/quote]

Alright cool makes sense. I’ll try that dip stretch one, never heard of it.

CC you made a post with all the main muscles and good exercises to do for each but I can’t find it in this thread or “Pyramid or Not”

do you know where you posted it?

Thanks

Is this it?

CC wrote:

"Day 1 - Chest, Biceps, Triceps (yes, in that order to give tris a rest after chest)
Day 2 - Legs
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Delts, Back (in that order)
Day 5 - off
Day 6 - either restart the cycle or another off-day… You can do this routine over 3 days a week or repeat it after every 5th day… Your call.

(warmups in this case I’d do something like 8, 5-6, 3-4, work-set or so.

(for each “-”, pick one exercise that fits the category)

Chest
-Low incline exercise (bb, db, machine), ramp up over 4 sets with relatively even weight jumps. I’d use 6-10 or so as your rep-range. (move up in weight in small increments once you can do 8, 9 or 10 reps… Make sure you “own” the weight before moving up)
-flat or decline exercise (bb, db, machine) ramp over 3-4 sets. 6-10 on final set.

Bis
-alt. db curls, EZ curls, low cable-curls… Whatever. 3-4 sets (could go 8 reps, 4-6 reps, work set), ramped, 6-10.
-incline offset grip curls, preachers, machine curls… 2-3 sets ramped
6-10 or 8-12 on the last set.

Tris
-CGP (elbows tucked, grip as wide as necessary so that you can stay fully tucked…), In-Human Press, S-wide-RGB (DC grip), HS dips…
3-4 sets ramped, 6-10 on the last.
-PJR’s, Larry Scott Extensions, Rolling DB extensions on the floor, Lying EZ extensions (bar comes down behind head), … 3 sets or 4 sets ramped.


Legs

-Squats, Front squats, Leg Press, Hack Machine squats, Power squats, whatever. 4-5 sets ramped, 4-6 reps on top set (could do two sets here), then rest, reduce the weight some and do a 20 rep widowmaker… (which basically means that after 8-10 reps or so you hold the weight and catch your breath, then grind out a few more reps, repeat until you get 16-20 or so… If you do front-squats as your main exercise, do the widowmaker on the leg-press or hack machine. No warm-ups needed, though you could do one)

-Ham exercise (can be done before quads in case that the widowmaker just leaves you dead on the floor) like rev hypers, lying leg curls, sumo leg presses, SLDL’s… 3-4 sets, 6-10 on the last

-Calves (do the DC protocol for these if you think you can stomach it :wink:

-pulldown abs or whatever


delts

-Overhead press of any kind (DB, BB, smith high inclines ala Rühl would probably be a good idea, we’ve talked about them a lot in the forums recently) 4 sets, ramped up, 6-10

-Laterals, better machine laterals if you have a good lateral machine… 2-3 sets ramped… 8-15 or 6-10

-Backwidth (or thickness first, depending on which is weaker in your case): Pulldowns (don’t cheat too much), Rack Chins (if you know how to do them right), pullups (weighted), that kind of thing. 4 sets ramped, 6-12 or so. (I would suggest rack chins or pulldowns or HS machines over pullups here, seriously)… And keep your biceps out of the movement.

-Backthickness
Yates Rows, Rack Pulls (only if you didn’t do free-weight back squats and/or sldl’s on leg day. This split shouldn’t have low-back involvement on two days, if you want to do both deads or rack deads and back squats/sldls, rotate them each week/cycle!), Kroc Rows (if you can get the technique down), HS row machines… You get the idea.
Rack pulls are done with a back-shrug at the top, i.e. you pull your delts back, chest out and tense your upper back…

4-5 sets (less for rows, more for heavy pulls), 6-10 or 8-12 at the end if it’s a row (kroc rows are 12-25, and done sort of like a widowmaker squat with the pauses etc)… And one heavy 6-8 followed by one lighter 8-12 (or the other way around) if it’s a rack dead/deadlift.

-rear delts: pinch-grip rows (Grab the plates with their lips pointing out, instead of the bar. 10-15 or so as a rep range then, go light at first! that’s obviously not a regular bo row, weight-wise…), face pulls, rev. pec deck… 2-3 sets, ramped, 8-12"

cephalic carnage.

amazing band

[quote]Needmassquick wrote:
CC you made a post with all the main muscles and good exercises to do for each but I can’t find it in this thread or “Pyramid or Not”

do you know where you posted it?

Thanks[/quote]

Maybe you are referring to that t-cell thread (best exercise for each bodypart or something like that) ? I posted my favorites there…

The one above is basically a yates-inspired 3-way, but I just gave a few examples of which exercises can be done for which slot/muscle-group there…

Ceph,

First off, thanks so much for all your help on this site.

Second, as per your tip I read once on here somewhere, I replaced skullcrushers with reverse grip bench as my main heavy triceps movement (for elbow health reasons and for the ability to increase weights faster). I do them in the smith machine, but I am not sure if I am doing them correctly. The lowest I can get the safety brackets is a few inches above my chest (about 3-5 inches).

Am I wasting my time on these by not going all the way down and feeling the triceps stretch? I’m still getting used to this movement, but I’m liking the heavy loads so far. I place my hands a little wider than shoulder width and lower to my nipple area.

Also, what exactly IS a PJR pullover? I usually perform my skullcrushers by lowering the weight to behind my head, in a pullover fashion. I assumed this might be what you describe as a PJR pullover. I tried searching for a description for this exercise, but can’t really find it.

Once again, thanks so much Ceph!

[quote]bulldogtor wrote:
Ceph,

First off, thanks so much for all your help on this site.

Second, as per your tip I read once on here somewhere, I replaced skullcrushers with reverse grip bench as my main heavy triceps movement (for elbow health reasons and for the ability to increase weights faster). I do them in the smith machine, but I am not sure if I am doing them correctly. The lowest I can get the safety brackets is a few inches above my chest (about 3-5 inches).

Am I wasting my time on these by not going all the way down and feeling the triceps stretch? I’m still getting used to this movement, but I’m liking the heavy loads so far. I place my hands a little wider than shoulder width and lower to my nipple area.

Also, what exactly IS a PJR pullover? I usually perform my skullcrushers by lowering the weight to behind my head, in a pullover fashion. I assumed this might be what you describe as a PJR pullover. I tried searching for a description for this exercise, but can’t really find it.

Once again, thanks so much Ceph![/quote]

There are a few vids on youtube to give you an idea of the basic motion, but both aren’t really “perfect” imo.

What you want to do is control the negative more, don’t lock out entirely and don’t bring your upper arms to perpendicular with the floor at the top… Stop at an incline.

One thing that seperates these from a lat pullover (other than the extension part) is that you kind of lock your shoulders down (via statically flexing the lats/shrugging shoulders down and getting your scapulae together as if you were benching… Same thing) to avoid involving the lats mainly but shift emphasis to the long head of the triceps. Your shoulder joints as such don’t rise towards your ears during the exercise (does that make sense?).

You may be able to see that in the vid.

As for smith wide-rgbs…

  1. PL bench setup (with less of an arch… But you still do the whole scapulae together and shoulders shrugged down thing and arch a bit)
    Shoulders never rise off the bench!

  2. Place bench under smith so that your butt is not on the bench, only your low back and upper back/delts.

  3. Press towards your feet/against the smith rack as well as up to involve tris more (esp. long head) and ease stress of the shoulders.
    If you’re using an angled smith, have the angle face away from your head/towards your feet.
    Kind of squeeze the bar up (explosively still) and make sure to control the negative… Don’t just think of it as “lifting” the weight though.

  4. If in doubt, widen grip.

  5. Only grab bar with thumb and index finger and let the bar settle into the crease between the fleshy part near your thumb and the rest of the hand…

Jason Wojo does 'em on youtube: (last exercise he does in the vid)

[quote]bulldogtor wrote:

The lowest I can get the safety brackets is a few inches above my chest (about 3-5 inches).

Am I wasting my time on these by not going all the way down and feeling the triceps stretch? I’m still getting used to this movement, but I’m liking the heavy loads so far. I place my hands a little wider than shoulder width and lower to my nipple area.

[/quote]

Well… I go all the way down… You’ll have to decide for yourself whether the movement is worth it with the limited ROM.

Just do it for a while, put 70-100 lbs onto your work-set and see how your tris respond (and make sure your elbows are ok with it… I’d buy neoprene sleeves and wrist wraps if I were you… If you haven’t already)