Hungry and HolyMac are amazin!
[quote]gregron wrote:
H4M isnt a bodybuilder and doesnt train for bodybuilding. He trains for powerlifting. [/quote]
so because he focuses on the big three, he can’t call himself a bodybuilder?
i’d be careful with trying to assume absolutes about people
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Brick, nothing here shows intolerance to this program. NOTHING. I asked why and got called a nigger for it and am now dealing with posters acting like I attacked their religion by asking the simple question WHY.
Why the fuck would someone do “TWO ACCESSORY MOVEMENTS” unless they fucking needed TWO ACCESSORY MOVEMENTS?
Yeah, most bodybuilding programs already utilize these exercises so again, if you don’t know WHY you are doing this and that, don’t expect to stand out.
And yes it does matter whether someone competes or whether they simply want to be one of the biggest and strongest in the gym.
The stand out posters here are Holy Mac, H4M and a few others…and NONE of these guys are simply in the gym doing shit with no concept of WHY.
They are attacking me because they know they can’t answer the fucking question.[/quote]
I agree with all you’ve written.
And you’ve listed the FEW here who REALLY know how to train like a bodybuilding purist! Most on here don’t care to be a purist, nor are they capable of figuring out how to become one. [/quote]
H4M isnt a bodybuilder and doesnt train for bodybuilding. He trains for powerlifting. [/quote]
I talk to him (and HolyMac) virtually every day.
H4Ms goal is definitely to get a huge powerlifting total. But youre wrong if you think he doesnt train his arms and delts just as seriously. He’s trying to be as strong AND big as possible and you cant look at him and say he has the proportions of a stereotypical powerlifter.
The labels are irrelevant to this discussion.
And my take on this thread.
My roomate from college has always been overweight. Pretty athletic but borderline obese. He’s not the type of person thats capable of creating his own split (inexperience). He doesnt have the desire to look like a bodybuilder. He doesnt want to be a power lifter either. He just wants to be in shape and asked me to recommend a program that will help.
531 is simple and effective. He bought the book and is doing it. Hes not going to look like a bodybuilder just by doing 531. Trust me.
Its a good program to use to learn how your body reacts. It teaches someone how to push themself and make progress. At some point it will NOT be the best plan for a bodybuilder.
And if you keep making changes to the template and add more and more extra stuff to it, it’s no longer 531. At that point any further discussion is moot.
Its not something Id ever do unless I wanted to add lbs to my bench squat and deadlift. I already know how to design many splits to make myself look the way I want to look. Doing a certain routine isn’t ‘fun’. Making noticeable progress after putting in hard work is ‘fun’
[quote]BruceLeeFan wrote:
Most programs are retarded. I will never use 5/3/1 I’ll have a look into it but I can’t ever see myself using it.
Expecting a program to bring the intensity for you is a cop out. As long as you are making progress in relation to your own goals you don’t need a program at all really.
I never followed a program until the start of December when I started doing starting strength and that’s only because it fits with my goals at the moment, otherwise I’d be doing my own thing.
I injured myself fairly badly at the end of 09 and was out for most of a year. What I’m doing now is trying to fix some postural issues while trying to gain some strength back.
SS is low volume and my workouts where I’m addressing postural issues add to that volume.
But my personal opinion…
I hate SS.
The lack of accessory work is shit.
In the past most of my big strength and general gains have come from adding more volume in from accessory work.
Example: Tricep pushdowns… Resulted in a better bench. Who would of guessed huh? lol.
Whoever said the N word to X is a low pathetic idiot. [/quote]
There is no 5-3-1 “program”.
It’s just a specific way of ramping where every weight you use is calculated beforehand.
I.e. spoonfeeding for people who find the idea of adding weight every set up to a top set somehow daunting and complicated (?).
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
There is no 5-3-1 “program”.
It’s just a specific way of ramping where every weight you use is calculated beforehand.
I.e. spoonfeeding for people who find the idea of adding weight every set up to a top set somehow daunting and complicated (?).
[/quote]
Ah I see.
I remember when I first got a bench, barbell etc, I asked the only over 240lb weight lifter I knew in person some questions… He pretty much said to me “I’ve got some extra weight at home when I used to have a home gym, I’ll bring it round do straight sets and then when you’re lifting good numbers I’ll get you a membership at the gym I go to for $50 a year.”
I also asked him what he thought of most of the programs available online and his opinion was in his words “a load of crap.”
I sort of took that to heart which may be why I came out a bit strong there. I mean I’ll take the advice of a 240+lb guy who looks competition ready year round in his 50s over most of the crap online.
But yeah ramping isn’t a hard concept.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Brick, nothing here shows intolerance to this program. NOTHING. I asked why and got called a nigger for it and am now dealing with posters acting like I attacked their religion by asking the simple question WHY.
Why the fuck would someone do “TWO ACCESSORY MOVEMENTS” unless they fucking needed TWO ACCESSORY MOVEMENTS?
Yeah, most bodybuilding programs already utilize these exercises so again, if you don’t know WHY you are doing this and that, don’t expect to stand out.
And yes it does matter whether someone competes or whether they simply want to be one of the biggest and strongest in the gym.
The stand out posters here are Holy Mac, H4M and a few others…and NONE of these guys are simply in the gym doing shit with no concept of WHY.
They are attacking me because they know they can’t answer the fucking question.[/quote]
I agree with all you’ve written.
And you’ve listed the FEW here who REALLY know how to train like a bodybuilding purist! Most on here don’t care to be a purist, nor are they capable of figuring out how to become one. [/quote]
H4M isnt a bodybuilder and doesnt train for bodybuilding. He trains for powerlifting. [/quote]
I talk to him (and HolyMac) virtually every day.
H4Ms goal is definitely to get a huge powerlifting total. But youre wrong if you think he doesnt train his arms and delts just as seriously. He’s trying to be as strong AND big as possible and you cant look at him and say he has the proportions of a stereotypical powerlifter.
The labels are irrelevant to this discussion.
And my take on this thread.
My roomate from college has always been overweight. Pretty athletic but borderline obese. He’s not the type of person thats capable of creating his own split (inexperience). He doesnt have the desire to look like a bodybuilder. He doesnt want to be a power lifter either. He just wants to be in shape and asked me to recommend a program that will help.
531 is simple and effective. He bought the book and is doing it. Hes not going to look like a bodybuilder just by doing 531. Trust me.
Its a good program to use to learn how your body reacts. It teaches someone how to push themself and make progress. At some point it will NOT be the best plan for a bodybuilder.
And if you keep making changes to the template and add more and more extra stuff to it, it’s no longer 531. At that point any further discussion is moot.
Its not something Id ever do unless I wanted to add lbs to my bench squat and deadlift. I already know how to design many splits to make myself look the way I want to look. Doing a certain routine isn’t ‘fun’. Making noticeable progress after putting in hard work is ‘fun’
[/quote]
Great post, and I agree with everything.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Most “powerbuilders” (whatever the heck you wanna call them) didn’t make it to the top
[/quote]
Yeah.
That Coleman dude sure never did.
Or that Jackson dude.
Or that Warren guy.
Or Schwarzenegger, Columbu, Francois, Fux, …
Among others.
Losers.
I used to think I knew what I was doing with my training, until I stalled out on my progress on the squat and deadlift for about a year. My stalled progress was not due to lack of motivation, as I was regular in my workouts and I would push the intensity and volume till I could barely walk. Realizing that I did not know what I was doing, I bought the 5/3/1 e-book and followed the program as stated.
I have been on 5/3/1 for 3 months and my lifts are slowly improving. I will stick with the program as written so long as it continues to work. It would not make sense for me to start to modify the program until I understand why I am now progressing on 5/3/1 while I was stagnated on my own program.
Therefore, it makes sense for me to stick with a program if it works even if I do not yet know why it works.
[quote]BruceLeeFan wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
There is no 5-3-1 “program”.
It’s just a specific way of ramping where every weight you use is calculated beforehand.
I.e. spoonfeeding for people who find the idea of adding weight every set up to a top set somehow daunting and complicated (?).
[/quote]
Ah I see.
I remember when I first got a bench, barbell etc, I asked the only over 240lb weight lifter I knew in person some questions… He pretty much said to me “I’ve got some extra weight at home when I used to have a home gym, I’ll bring it round do straight sets and then when you’re lifting good numbers I’ll get you a membership at the gym I go to for $50 a year.”
I also asked him what he thought of most of the programs available online and his opinion was in his words “a load of crap.”
[/quote] He’s right. But I’m not sure why you mentioned this. 5/3/1 is, as I said, not a program at all. [quote]
I sort of took that to heart which may be why I came out a bit strong there. I mean I’ll take the advice of a 240+lb guy who looks competition ready year round in his 50s over most of the crap online.
[/quote] Good idea. Maybe. Based on your recent t-cell thread I’m really getting confused here. When did you ask him and what were the results? [quote]
But yeah ramping isn’t a hard concept.[/quote]
You’d think so, but apparently it is. Many threads in this forum from 2008 and 2009 prove this. Jim Wendler’s inbox also does, I bet.
X, a lot of people follow a program because they don’t know how to find what “works optimally” for them. How does one find such an equilibrium?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]BruceLeeFan wrote:
Most programs are retarded. I will never use 5/3/1 I’ll have a look into it but I can’t ever see myself using it.
Expecting a program to bring the intensity for you is a cop out. As long as you are making progress in relation to your own goals you don’t need a program at all really.
I never followed a program until the start of December when I started doing starting strength and that’s only because it fits with my goals at the moment, otherwise I’d be doing my own thing.
I injured myself fairly badly at the end of 09 and was out for most of a year. What I’m doing now is trying to fix some postural issues while trying to gain some strength back.
SS is low volume and my workouts where I’m addressing postural issues add to that volume.
But my personal opinion…
I hate SS.
The lack of accessory work is shit.
In the past most of my big strength and general gains have come from adding more volume in from accessory work.
Example: Tricep pushdowns… Resulted in a better bench. Who would of guessed huh? lol.
Whoever said the N word to X is a low pathetic idiot. [/quote]
There is no 5-3-1 “program”.
It’s just a specific way of ramping where every weight you use is calculated beforehand.
I.e. spoonfeeding for people who find the idea of adding weight every set up to a top set somehow daunting and complicated (?).
[/quote]
my old roommate to a ‘T’
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Most “powerbuilders” (whatever the heck you wanna call them) didn’t make it to the top
[/quote]
Yeah.
That Coleman dude sure never did.
Or that Jackson dude.
Or that Warren guy.
Or Schwarzenegger, Columbu, Francois, Fux, …
Among others.
Losers.
[/quote]
Who did you list here besides Johnnie Jackson that has a long streak in powerlifting and competed in it REGULARLY.
I wrote that top people who dabbled in both eventually made a decision to focus on one endeavor.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
I talk to him (and HolyMac) virtually every day.
[/quote]
god you wish you got that kind of attention from us
Many people who mix PL and BB really knows how their body works. Don’t be stupid to believe that they ALL don’t know WHY they are doing what they’re doing…
Also there are people that never used 5/3/1, and they simple don’t know how “open” this program is. They also never trained in PL style… why they are talking?
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Most “powerbuilders” (whatever the heck you wanna call them) didn’t make it to the top
[/quote]
Yeah.
That Coleman dude sure never did.
Or that Jackson dude.
Or that Warren guy.
Or Schwarzenegger, Columbu, Francois, Fux, …
Among others.
[/quote] Add Lacour, Rodriguez, Yates, Henry… [quote]
Losers.
[/quote]
Who did you list here besides Johnnie Jackson that has a long streak in powerlifting and competed in it REGULARLY.
I wrote that top people who dabbled in both eventually made a decision to focus on one endeavor. [/quote]
I quoted the “powerbuilding” part, not what you mentioned here (because I agree with the latter).
Powerbuilding has nothing to do with whether you actually compete in either bbing or pl or both… It’s just how you approach your training, what your main focus is on, and that you blend bbing with powerlifting training (though not always specifically that).
As opposed to what guys like Jackson, Wheeler etc are/were doing.
But aside from this… And basically I agree with what you wrote in the quote… Do you think that if Johnnie Jackson were to stop powerlifting and to focus completely on bodybuilding and become a bbing “purist”, i.e. change his routine as well… So no more heavy work on his main lifts (or whatever… That’s almost the only thing he does differently from many others anyway).
Do you think that this would allow him to get to the top?
Ronnie and Johnnie did not train all that differently, if at all. One ended up Nr. 1, the other did not. Just because he also competes in powerlifting?
I’d say this has nothing to whether Johnnie competes in powerlifting or not… But quite simply with genetics.
Now if we were talking about some guy in this forum doing Sheiko and thinking that this will
make him look like a Mr. O competitor, even if he has great genetics… Then I’d say he’s kidding himself, but that is also a completely different approach to training (pure powerlifting).
Not that powerbuilding is a classification that I think really needs to exist…
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Most “powerbuilders” (whatever the heck you wanna call them) didn’t make it to the top
[/quote]
Yeah.
That Coleman dude sure never did.
Or that Jackson dude.
Or that Warren guy.
Or Schwarzenegger, Columbu, Francois, Fux, …
Among others.
[/quote] Add Lacour, Rodriguez, Yates, Henry… [quote]
Losers.
[/quote]
Who did you list here besides Johnnie Jackson that has a long streak in powerlifting and competed in it REGULARLY.
I wrote that top people who dabbled in both eventually made a decision to focus on one endeavor. [/quote]
I quoted the “powerbuilding” part, not what you mentioned here (because I agree with the latter).
Powerbuilding has nothing to do with whether you actually compete in either bbing or pl or both… It’s just how you approach your training, what your main focus is on, and that you blend bbing with powerlifting training (though not always specifically that).
As opposed to what guys like Jackson, Wheeler etc are/were doing.
But aside from this… And basically I agree with what you wrote in the quote… Do you think that if Johnnie Jackson were to stop powerlifting and to focus completely on bodybuilding and become a bbing “purist”, i.e. change his routine as well… So no more heavy work on his main lifts (or whatever… That’s almost the only thing he does differently from many others anyway).
Do you think that this would allow him to get to the top?
Ronnie and Johnnie did not train all that differently, if at all. One ended up Nr. 1, the other did not. Just because he also competes in powerlifting?
I’d say this has nothing to whether Johnnie competes in powerlifting or not… But quite simply with genetics.
Now if we were talking about some guy in this forum doing Sheiko and thinking that this will
make him look like a Mr. O competitor, even if he has great genetics… Then I’d say he’s kidding himself, but that is also a completely different approach to training (pure powerlifting).
Not that powerbuilding is a classification that I think really needs to exist…
[/quote]
Good post!
Here’s a hypothetical 5/3/1 session for those who don’t know what it looks like…
Bench, wave 3, assuming 525lb max during wave one, rounded to 5 lbs:
135xwarmup
225xwarmup
315xwarmup
355x5
405x3
455 x 7 or 8 or whatever you get
That’s the 5/3/1 part.
Now one might do, all ramped, maybe a drop set here or there, or whatever you want:
-Hammer Strength Bench
-HS Dip Machine
-Scott Extensions
-EZ Bar Skullcrushers
Or whatever. But that is entirely up to the trainee…
Looks suspiciously like a fairly typical bodybuilding chest+triceps day, doesn’t it?
I’d actually say that regular 5/3/1 has less to do with training specifically for powerlifting than Ronnie’s old 2003 split… He goes heavier/lower rep on the big 3 than people who follow the original 5/3/1 to the T for one…
Now here’s someone who unfortunately didn’t take a stab at bodybuilding - Kirk Karwoski.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
It is true that most on here don’t care to design their own programs because of laziness, not having confidence, not having enough experience, ineptitude in following directions and advice, and not knowing anyone PERSONALLY (not on the friggin’ internet), and (I’m sorry to say this last one) lack of intellecual ability (there’s not other way to put it).
It is true that NO top ranking bodybuilder follows 5/3/1. It is true that VERY FEW top ranking bodybuilders follow a “branded” program (eg, Max OT, Doggcrap, some other thing that I think Jason Cutler was experimenting with, and another thing Robbie Robinson was doing with Trevor Smith for some masters competition).
It is true that although there have been a few (!) people who’ve done GOOD in powerlifting and bodybuilding, if they wanted to make it to the very top in either one, they had to make a decision. This says something! Most “powerbuilders” (whatever the heck you wanna call them) didn’t make it to the top and there hasn’t been one Mr. Olympia who has REGULARLY competed in powerlifting. Most powerlifters don’t look like bodybuilders. People like Andy Fiedler, Ken Lain (old timer), Vince Anello, David Waterman, Doug Young, and Sam Byrd are/were a minority.
It is true that the word “accessory” applies to lifts that build the competitive lifts (squat, bench press, deadlift). I’m not sure how this applies to bodybuilding because there are no competitive lifts. But if people liek these terms, fine. But I do think it’s a reflection of not being informed of exactly how top BBers train. As I wrote in my BB Bible thread and about a hundred times, nearly all train pretty much the same way with minor variations.
But then again, it is true, that hardly anyone around here competes or makes a living in some form or another from bodybuilding; so it actually doesn’t matter what the heck they do to build a physique (whatever kind of physique they want) as long as they make progress and are happy. At this point, I don’t like cookie cutter pgorams at all, unless I’m taking on some form of activity that I have little to no experience in (had to do this when setting up a running routine in the past year).
I got the ebook. It’s good. It’s just not for a bodybuilder’s bodybuilder (lack of a better way to put it).
X: As I’ve written before, I have no beef with you, but I’m unsure as to why you’re so intolerant of how others train, especialyl considering you’re not coachign them and they’re never gonna compete or earn a living from this.
And you also know that we agree in that many in lifting have total incompetence and inteptitude in figuring shit out for themselves. [/quote]
Great post…well stated.[/quote]
Thanks.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Here’s a hypothetical 5/3/1 session for those who don’t know what it looks like…
Bench, wave 3, assuming 525lb max during wave one, rounded to 5 lbs:
135xwarmup
225xwarmup
315xwarmup
355x5
405x3
455 x 7 or 8 or whatever you get
That’s the 5/3/1 part.
Now one might do, all ramped, maybe a drop set here or there, or whatever you want:
-Hammer Strength Bench
-HS Dip Machine
-Scott Extensions
-EZ Bar Skullcrushers
Or whatever. But that is entirely up to the trainee…
Looks suspiciously like a fairly typical bodybuilding chest+triceps day, doesn’t it?
I’d actually say that regular 5/3/1 has less to do with training specifically for powerlifting than Ronnie’s old 2003 split… He goes heavier/lower rep on the big 3 than people who follow the original 5/3/1 to the T for one…
[/quote]
did you steal that from my training log??