Bodybuilding with 5/3/1 for the Big Lifts

Training Bodybuilding
61

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Here’s a hypothetical 5/3/1 session for those who don’t know what it looks like…

Bench, wave 3, assuming 525lb max during wave one, rounded to 5 lbs:

135xwarmup
225xwarmup
315xwarmup
355x5
405x3
455 x 7 or 8 or whatever you get

That’s the 5/3/1 part.

Now one might do, all ramped, maybe a drop set here or there, or whatever you want:

-Hammer Strength Bench
-HS Dip Machine
-Scott Extensions
-EZ Bar Skullcrushers

Or whatever. But that is entirely up to the trainee…

Looks suspiciously like a fairly typical bodybuilding chest+triceps day, doesn’t it?

I’d actually say that regular 5/3/1 has less to do with training specifically for powerlifting than Ronnie’s old 2003 split… He goes heavier/lower rep on the big 3 than people who follow the original 5/3/1 to the T for one…

[/quote]

did you steal that from my training log??:slight_smile:
[/quote]

If I had it would read:
-main lift 5/3/1
then, all 10 sets of 10 reps:
-Hammerzzztrength isolateral flat press
-Hammerzzztrength isolateral incline press
-Hammerzzztrength Pec Deck (isolateral of course)
-Hammerzzztrength Dip Machine (new isolateral model)
-Hammerzzztrength Supra Extension Machine (supra= better than isolateral, new model)
-Kickbacks with 185 lbs, but only because there’s no Hammerzzztrength equivalent.

So really, I could not possibly have stolen that from your log. Too many HS machines to carry one of your posts all the way here.

62

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Here’s a hypothetical 5/3/1 session for those who don’t know what it looks like…

Bench, wave 3, assuming 525lb max during wave one, rounded to 5 lbs:

135xwarmup
225xwarmup
315xwarmup
355x5
405x3
455 x 7 or 8 or whatever you get

That’s the 5/3/1 part.

Now one might do, all ramped, maybe a drop set here or there, or whatever you want:

-Hammer Strength Bench
-HS Dip Machine
-Scott Extensions
-EZ Bar Skullcrushers

Or whatever. But that is entirely up to the trainee…

Looks suspiciously like a fairly typical bodybuilding chest+triceps day, doesn’t it?

I’d actually say that regular 5/3/1 has less to do with training specifically for powerlifting than Ronnie’s old 2003 split… He goes heavier/lower rep on the big 3 than people who follow the original 5/3/1 to the T for one…

[/quote]

did you steal that from my training log??:slight_smile:
[/quote]

If I had it would read:
-main lift 5/3/1
then, all 10 sets of 10 reps:
-Hammerzzztrength isolateral flat press
-Hammerzzztrength isolateral incline press
-Hammerzzztrength Pec Deck (isolateral of course)
-Hammerzzztrength Dip Machine (new isolateral model)
-Hammerzzztrength Supra Extension Machine (supra= better than isolateral, new model)
-Kickbacks with 185 lbs, but only because there’s no Hammerzzztrength equivalent.

So really, I could not possibly have stolen that from your log. Too many HS machines to carry one of your posts all the way here.

[/quote]

you must be training on the old models. my gym actually has new models that grunt for you, has a “limited ROM” feature that allows the truely hardcore lifters to only bring the weight down half way to maintain “constant tension” and my favorite feature- it has “spotter” handles to allow your training partner to “keep the weight move’n bro” and to give you “just enough” to totally get huuuuuuggggee!!!

63

[quote]Professor X wrote:
WHO SAID ANYTHING AT ALL NEGATIVE ABOUT THIS TEMPLATE?

Answer that question first before we move on.

Trying to get people to know WHY they are doing what they are is causing some of you to take offense?

Really?

Why so weak minded?

Who insulted your program?

If the answer is “no one” then what is your problem?
[/quote]

Well, you basically said that if he’s following this program he “may be in the wrong forum”.

Thing is, why can’t people discuss what they like here without you charging in, loaded for bear and ready to give the guy a raft of shit? Who fucking cares what he does?

I think maybe T-Nation should consider another forum called “IFBB/NPC Level Bodybuilding” - no one under 230 pounds may enter!

I mean, I think it’s unfair to hold everyone here to YOUR personal standards. If the discussion/program/lifting style or whatever doesn’t appeal to you, why is it not possible for you to simply ignore the thread?

64

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Brick, nothing here shows intolerance to this program. NOTHING. I asked why and got called a nigger for it and am now dealing with posters acting like I attacked their religion by asking the simple question WHY.

Why the fuck would someone do “TWO ACCESSORY MOVEMENTS” unless they fucking needed TWO ACCESSORY MOVEMENTS?

Yeah, most bodybuilding programs already utilize these exercises so again, if you don’t know WHY you are doing this and that, don’t expect to stand out.

And yes it does matter whether someone competes or whether they simply want to be one of the biggest and strongest in the gym.

The stand out posters here are Holy Mac, H4M and a few others…and NONE of these guys are simply in the gym doing shit with no concept of WHY.

They are attacking me because they know they can’t answer the fucking question.[/quote]

I agree with all you’ve written.

And you’ve listed the FEW here who REALLY know how to train like a bodybuilding purist! Most on here don’t care to be a purist, nor are they capable of figuring out how to become one. [/quote]

H4M isnt a bodybuilder and doesnt train for bodybuilding. He trains for powerlifting. [/quote]

I talk to him (and HolyMac) virtually every day.

H4Ms goal is definitely to get a huge powerlifting total. But youre wrong if you think he doesnt train his arms and delts just as seriously. He’s trying to be as strong AND big as possible and you cant look at him and say he has the proportions of a stereotypical powerlifter.

The labels are irrelevant to this discussion.

And my take on this thread.

My roomate from college has always been overweight. Pretty athletic but borderline obese. He’s not the type of person thats capable of creating his own split (inexperience). He doesnt have the desire to look like a bodybuilder. He doesnt want to be a power lifter either. He just wants to be in shape and asked me to recommend a program that will help.

531 is simple and effective. He bought the book and is doing it. Hes not going to look like a bodybuilder just by doing 531. Trust me.

Its a good program to use to learn how your body reacts. It teaches someone how to push themself and make progress. At some point it will NOT be the best plan for a bodybuilder.

And if you keep making changes to the template and add more and more extra stuff to it, it’s no longer 531. At that point any further discussion is moot.

Its not something Id ever do unless I wanted to add lbs to my bench squat and deadlift. I already know how to design many splits to make myself look the way I want to look. Doing a certain routine isn’t ‘fun’. Making noticeable progress after putting in hard work is ‘fun’
[/quote]

So, why would this program get recommended on a forum like this unless the goals of the individual are to avoid the goals of a bodybuilder?

It sounds like a great routine to follow if you are the type who have trouble with consistency and motivation in the first place.

65

[quote]SkyNett wrote:

Well, you basically said that if he’s following this program he “may be in the wrong forum”.
[/quote]

Is “reading comprehension” turned off this week? THIS was my post:

[quote]
Then they aren’t bodybuilding. This is about the results made, not what template you subscribe to like a brand of jeans.

If you are doing shit just because you enjoy doing it regardless of the outcome, you just may be in the wrong forum.

Likewise, if you are doing shit and don’t know why, don’t expect to learn your own body and what it needs to grow optimally. [/quote]

It looks to me like I wrote about someone not making progress yet doing a program anyway.

Gee, look at that, I DID write just that.

That means your rant is unwarranted and your reading comprehension sucks.

66

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SkyNett wrote:

Well, you basically said that if he’s following this program he “may be in the wrong forum”.
[/quote]

Is “reading comprehension” turned off this week? THIS was my post:

Lol - no, it doesn’t. Just your typical side-stepping the real issue. Which is your need to come into every thread and talk down to people.

It’s amazing - some days you can be really cool and enjoyable to talk to, and then the next day it’s like someone killed your cat or something.

67

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

There is no 5-3-1 “program”.

It’s just a specific way of ramping where every weight you use is calculated beforehand.
I.e. spoonfeeding for people who find the idea of adding weight every set up to a top set somehow daunting and complicated (?).

[/quote]

So this is for people who can’t be bothered to learn why they are doing what they are?

If you can’t even learn how to ramp by yourself, how far can you expect to go?

68

[quote]SkyNett wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SkyNett wrote:

Well, you basically said that if he’s following this program he “may be in the wrong forum”.
[/quote]

Is “reading comprehension” turned off this week? THIS was my post:

Lol - no, it doesn’t. Just your typical side-stepping the real issue. Which is your need to come into every thread and talk down to people.

It’s amazing - some days you can be really cool and enjoyable to talk to, and then the next day it’s like someone killed your cat or something. [/quote]

Doofus, my first post in this thread is not talking down to anyone…AT ALL. For that one post, several talked down to me…so why is your view of reality so fucked up?

Mind you, some of those posts have been deleted and edited by this point.

69

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Doofus, my first post in this thread is not talking down to anyone…AT ALL. For that one post, several talked down to me…so why is your view of reality so fucked up?[/quote]

Lol - dude - you are such a giant baby sometimes. I swear I want to sew together like a THOUSAND of those maternity blankets, swaddle you in them and then feed you a giant bottle of whey protein!

Would you like that big guy? ; )

70

[quote]SkyNett wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Doofus, my first post in this thread is not talking down to anyone…AT ALL. For that one post, several talked down to me…so why is your view of reality so fucked up?[/quote]

Lol - dude - you are such a giant baby sometimes. I swear I want to sew together like a THOUSAND of those maternity blankets, swaddle you in them and then feed you a giant bottle of whey protein!

Would you like that big guy? ; ) [/quote]

?

Aren’t you now “side stepping” the issue? What was written in this thread that talked down to anyone until I was insulted?

Answer the question or quit wasting my time.

71

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]BruceLeeFan wrote:
Most programs are retarded. I will never use 5/3/1 I’ll have a look into it but I can’t ever see myself using it.

Expecting a program to bring the intensity for you is a cop out. As long as you are making progress in relation to your own goals you don’t need a program at all really.

I never followed a program until the start of December when I started doing starting strength and that’s only because it fits with my goals at the moment, otherwise I’d be doing my own thing.
I injured myself fairly badly at the end of 09 and was out for most of a year. What I’m doing now is trying to fix some postural issues while trying to gain some strength back.

SS is low volume and my workouts where I’m addressing postural issues add to that volume.

But my personal opinion…
I hate SS.

The lack of accessory work is shit.
In the past most of my big strength and general gains have come from adding more volume in from accessory work.

Example: Tricep pushdowns… Resulted in a better bench. Who would of guessed huh? lol.

Whoever said the N word to X is a low pathetic idiot. [/quote]

There is no 5-3-1 “program”.

It’s just a specific way of ramping where every weight you use is calculated beforehand.
I.e. spoonfeeding for people who find the idea of adding weight every set up to a top set somehow daunting and complicated (?).

[/quote]

my old roommate to a ‘T’[/quote]

Question…did he stick with it?

72

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Aren’t you now “side stepping” the issue? What was written in this thread that talked down to anyone until I was insulted?

Answer the question or quit wasting my time.[/quote]

Dude - you’re no fun. You disappoint me… : (

73

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Here’s a hypothetical 5/3/1 session for those who don’t know what it looks like…

Bench, wave 3, assuming 525lb max during wave one, rounded to 5 lbs:

135xwarmup
225xwarmup
315xwarmup
355x5
405x3
455 x 7 or 8 or whatever you get

That’s the 5/3/1 part.

Now one might do, all ramped, maybe a drop set here or there, or whatever you want:

-Hammer Strength Bench
-HS Dip Machine
-Scott Extensions
-EZ Bar Skullcrushers

Or whatever. But that is entirely up to the trainee…

Looks suspiciously like a fairly typical bodybuilding chest+triceps day, doesn’t it?

I’d actually say that regular 5/3/1 has less to do with training specifically for powerlifting than Ronnie’s old 2003 split… He goes heavier/lower rep on the big 3 than people who follow the original 5/3/1 to the T for one…
[/quote]

This is how I always viewed 5/3/1. To me, is just a change in rep scheme. How or why does it work? Probably just like any other change in rep scheme works. It’s helped me break out of a strength plateau and if I needed more volume I would hit the accessory exercises a little harder. I don’t know the entire 5/3/1 program, just the rep scheme if I were using it on a big lift.

74

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]BruceLeeFan wrote:
Most programs are retarded. I will never use 5/3/1 I’ll have a look into it but I can’t ever see myself using it.

Expecting a program to bring the intensity for you is a cop out. As long as you are making progress in relation to your own goals you don’t need a program at all really.

I never followed a program until the start of December when I started doing starting strength and that’s only because it fits with my goals at the moment, otherwise I’d be doing my own thing.
I injured myself fairly badly at the end of 09 and was out for most of a year. What I’m doing now is trying to fix some postural issues while trying to gain some strength back.

SS is low volume and my workouts where I’m addressing postural issues add to that volume.

But my personal opinion…
I hate SS.

The lack of accessory work is shit.
In the past most of my big strength and general gains have come from adding more volume in from accessory work.

Example: Tricep pushdowns… Resulted in a better bench. Who would of guessed huh? lol.

Whoever said the N word to X is a low pathetic idiot. [/quote]

There is no 5-3-1 “program”.

It’s just a specific way of ramping where every weight you use is calculated beforehand.
I.e. spoonfeeding for people who find the idea of adding weight every set up to a top set somehow daunting and complicated (?).

[/quote]

my old roommate to a ‘T’[/quote]

Question…did he stick with it? [/quote]

He started around 4 weeks ago. Still doing it, unless he hasnt told me he quit.

75

[quote]Professor X wrote:
What was written in this thread that talked down to anyone until I was insulted?

Answer the question or quit wasting my time.[/quote]

wait, wait… by “insulted” do you mean that stupid throll (with less post than I have) that called you (we all know how)??? really? Because I don’t see anything else that can be called as a “insulting you”

Troll was the reason why you wrote for example this:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

This is what I was getting at…yet thinking outside of the box is clearly a skill lacking here and they see anything not praising it as an attack.

That is how fan boys think…and they will always make the least progress as a result.[/quote]

it’s childish.

76

Actually 5/3/1 is NOT so unique. What IS unique about it is that a UNIQUE INIDIVIDUAL (Jim Wendler) who has experience with Division I football and elite powerlifter and work as a personal trainer and strength coach with the correct literary, marketing, and oratory skills brought it to the forefront - made it mainstream so to speak (which is good).

It’s not unique in that although it does use 5’s, 3’s, and 1’s for the main lifts over the course of a month, it is still a scheme that many have used for decades for a portion of their powerlifting training cycles. After all, if you were to look at the sample hypertrophy program Jim provides for back, it looks nearly identical to the deadlift days used by Kirk Karwoski and Ed Coan (albeit with less exercises).

They worked their way from 10s to 3s and 1s over the course of 16 weeks. So the last 8 weeks is pretty similar to 5/3/1. However, neither one chose to make an ebook and how to apply their systems for a variety of strength training endeavors. Check out Marty Gallagher’s book Primal Primitive to see their routines. Actually, MOST old school guys (pre-Westside fascination) followed that sort of template.

I don’t consider 5/3/1 a “brand” and Jim Wendler is one of the last people on earth who would tell his readers to not think for and learn from themselves!!! He simply writes articles and ebooks to get people on the right track! If you need and can tolerate more than 4 assistance exercises, then fucking do it! Do you think Jim Wendler would tell Brian Siders to stop doing his 3 to 4 hour workouts with god knows how many assistance exercises. (Siders’ workouts would pust most on here out of work for a week!)

Cookie cutter programs ARE good for rank beginners! Most people start out with a cookie cutter program, and most beginners have the same need - learn exercises on a full body routine done twice or three times per week. That’s why Starting Strength, HST, and Bill Starr’s 5 x 5 work great for beginners. Even Yates started out on a generic month long full body program.

However, I’ve coem to the sad conclusion that if some people are incapable of hiring a coach, they will have to remain on cookie cutter programs for the remainder of their lives secondary to reasons discussed before. If these gets them off the couch and computer and in a gym but produces subpar results, so be it! Some results are better than no results for most people. At least they’re exercising and reaping some health and recreational benefits.

77

Brick,

Is this forum for the “get them off the couch and computer” crowd? I do believe they made the effort to name this forum for bodybuilding and added “conditioning” so that we would NOT get bogged down with the “get them off the couch and computer” crowd.

Those people won’t make much progress anyway so why would we care which program they use?

One poster actually wrote that he doesn’t want to know why what he is doing works or not. This is now the “Mediocre Lifter” forum?

What should the topics be in a forum like that?

78

Well Brick, most guys follow a program for a while, follow another, and continue this cycle for a period of time. After a year of training you should pretty much know what style works for you and follow your own methodologies. Sadly, all these programs with fancy names and bright lights keep these uneducated novices jumping back and forth never LEARNING what works best FOR THEM.

79

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
Well Brick, most guys follow a program for a while, follow another, and continue this cycle for a period of time. After a year of training you should pretty much know what style works for you and follow your own methodologies. Sadly, all these programs with fancy names and bright lights keep these uneducated novices jumping back and forth never LEARNING what works best FOR THEM. [/quote]

Most people on here who haven’t experienced progress with nutrition, training, and even HRT ar self destructive and simply like striking up conversation, all the while, in their hearts, not giving a flying fuck what more experienced and educated people tell them to do. This is why I actually consider some of them rude and insulting despite coming across as good-intentioned, innocent, willing-to-learn newbies.

80

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Brick,

One poster actually wrote that he doesn’t want to know why what he is doing works or not. This is now the “Mediocre Lifter” forum?

[/quote]

Who in gods name wrote that?