I feel like I should clarify…they reason I do rows the way that I call them “devil rows” (with a more upright stance, more of a hybrid shrug/row than anything) is mainly as an assistance exercise for deadlifts. The way meat is doing them, the more “traditional” way generally has more carryover to bench stability. I’ve been doing them both ways recently, and they both have valid uses and purposes. It would be silly to assume you have to choose one or the other for some strange reason. Get stronger at all variations, then you don’t have to worry about missing out on anything.
[quote]hungry4more wrote:
[quote]legacyfighter wrote:
[quote]fuseven wrote:
Been deadlifting “heavy” recently and just haven’t been able to keep my upper back tight and it’s making me round everywhere…this looks like a good reason why.
Really appreciate the input guys, looks like I have to focus on rows for probably a good year or so since I’m lagging so badly.[/quote]
Something i’ve found recently that will really help keep your upper back tight is to do this: start your BOR by standing all the way up. Then when you lower to get into position, go down super slow and over exaggerate the arch in your back, while sticking your butt out. It should look alot like an RDL. Once you get your torso close to parallel to the floor it should be much easier to stay tight. I do all mine super strict though and can still pull some decent weight this way.
It sounds too simple, but it made a huge difference in mine.[/quote]
The whole stand up before you start rowing thing works well in “standard” BB Rows done with a stance basically like a conventional deadlift, doesn’t seem to work so well with a “semi-sumo” rowing stance, just something you should be aware of. [/quote]
Wow, i’ve never even thought about doing them with a semi-sumo stance. that just sounds like it would feel really unnatural. i’ll have to try it out next time.
Currently using 250lb for 5 sets of 10 BOR @ 45deg (5/3/1 assistance) but bench is only ~200lb x 10 (coming back from injuries)
45-degrees to the waist with a little (and I mean little) english I can row my bench 1RM for reps. And that bench is big arch, no pause. So the good thing is I don’t have to worry about my upper back strength being an issue…the bad things is my bench press still sucks.
how about cable rows?
Less stress on the lower back but still work the upper back 
thoughts?
My bench and row strength are pretty much identical, rows maybe slightly stronger. I row 45 degrees bent over, use a little English and take an underhand grip. Overhand is just uncomfortable.
[quote]kaoticz wrote:
how about cable rows?
Less stress on the lower back but still work the upper back
thoughts?[/quote]
Cable rows are a good exercise, however, not a sufficient supstitute for free weight rows.
[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
[quote]kaoticz wrote:
how about cable rows?
Less stress on the lower back but still work the upper back
thoughts?[/quote]
Cable rows are a good exercise, however, not a sufficient supstitute for free weight rows.[/quote]
I do both.
I’m with H4M concerning covering all the variations. Actually, I regard each variation as an exercise in its own right. Just compare 30-45° BORs with 75-90° ones. Not to mention grip type, grip width and end point variations.
Concerning lower back problems: the more you lean back with your ass and compensate by bending your knees, the less stress will be on your lower back (and don’t go in an excessive arch).
I’ve got a herniated disc and have no problems rowing semi-heavy to heavy loads (low to mid 300s, ~ 70° angle) for reps that way. Doing leg curls and light to medium load back squats in advance helps in activating the posterior chain, btw. Just a tweak I apply after a rather long day in the office.
[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
My bench and row strength are pretty much identical, rows maybe slightly stronger. I row 45 degrees bent over, use a little English and take an underhand grip. Overhand is just uncomfortable.[/quote]
No biceps problems that way?
The underhand grip might allow for better lat stretch and activation, but it’s too risky for lucky old me, seeing how my pulling volume exceeds my pressing by at least 100 % (and thus my elbow flexors are already under a lot of duty).
I’ve noticed that my grip strength is the strongest using an EZ bar for BORs. Opposed to using a straight bar, my wrists feel a lot more comfortable that way, too.
[quote]Akuma01 wrote:
[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
[quote]kaoticz wrote:
how about cable rows?
Less stress on the lower back but still work the upper back
thoughts?[/quote]
Cable rows are a good exercise, however, not a sufficient supstitute for free weight rows.[/quote]
I do both.[/quote]
His post implies doing cable rows instead of regular barbell.
I do both too.
[quote]FattyFat wrote:
I’m with H4M concerning covering all the variations. Actually, I regard each variation as an exercise in its own right. Just compare 30-45Ã?° BORs with 75-90Ã?° ones. Not to mention grip type, grip width and end point variations.
Concerning lower back problems: the more you lean back with your ass and compensate by bending your knees, the less stress will be on your lower back (and don’t go in an excessive arch).
I’ve got a herniated disc and have no problems rowing semi-heavy to heavy loads (low to mid 300s, ~ 70Ã?° angle) for reps that way. Doing leg curls and light to medium load back squats in advance helps in activating the posterior chain, btw. Just a tweak I apply after a rather long day in the office.
[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
My bench and row strength are pretty much identical, rows maybe slightly stronger. I row 45 degrees bent over, use a little English and take an underhand grip. Overhand is just uncomfortable.[/quote]
No biceps problems that way?
The underhand grip might allow for better lat stretch and activation, but it’s too risky for lucky old me, seeing how my pulling volume exceeds my pressing by at least 100 % (and thus my elbow flexors are already under a lot of duty).
I’ve noticed that my grip strength is the strongest using an EZ bar for BORs. Opposed to using a straight bar, my wrists feel a lot more comfortable that way, too.
[/quote]
No bicep problems whatsever and I’m doing rows with 365 for reps on a pretty regular basis. I can lift more this way and also do feel a better stretch.
Fattyfat, variations in grip width/foot width etc should DEFINITELY be considered different exercises. I feel “devil rows” Devil rows 525x7 - YouTube and “Traditional BB Rows” BB Rows 405x10 - YouTube totally differently in my back, and the only real difference I make is switching around where my feet and hands are.
Working all the angles is always best.
[quote]hungry4more wrote:
You need to focus on working your back more, it’s a good thing you realized this on your own to some degree. Bent over row strength should be significantly higher than benching strength, so keep working at them, and there’s nothing wrong with some body english as long as you aren’t rounding your spine like a hunchback. [/quote]
By significantly higher, what percentage should it be higher, somewhere around 20%?
In the off-season I got my bench up to 2755 – I got 2753 on BOR with straps and a substantial amount of body english.
[quote]Chi-Towns-Finest wrote:
[quote]hungry4more wrote:
You need to focus on working your back more, it’s a good thing you realized this on your own to some degree. Bent over row strength should be significantly higher than benching strength, so keep working at them, and there’s nothing wrong with some body english as long as you aren’t rounding your spine like a hunchback. [/quote]
By significantly higher, what percentage should it be higher, somewhere around 20%?
In the off-season I got my bench up to 2755 – I got 2753 on BOR with straps and a substantial amount of body english. [/quote]
Well as you can see in the above videos, I just recently did 405x10 “normal” bb rows, and my best bench is 345 lbs. Granted, I had a minor injury that held back my bench for a while, but that’s still a big difference. Having said that, my back is proportionately stronger than my chest, and I realize this. From a powerlifting point of view, it makes sense. I believe it’s safe to say that when it comes to repping out a bench weight (say, 6-12RM), your BOR strength should be QUITE a bit stronger. Hell, even with almost perfect form, I can rep out 315 on rows pretty easy.
This thread has definitely been enlightening. Made me realize that I really need to work on my rowing strength.
[quote]hungry4more wrote:
[quote]Chi-Towns-Finest wrote:
[quote]hungry4more wrote:
You need to focus on working your back more, it’s a good thing you realized this on your own to some degree. Bent over row strength should be significantly higher than benching strength, so keep working at them, and there’s nothing wrong with some body english as long as you aren’t rounding your spine like a hunchback. [/quote]
By significantly higher, what percentage should it be higher, somewhere around 20%?
In the off-season I got my bench up to 2755 – I got 2753 on BOR with straps and a substantial amount of body english. [/quote]
Well as you can see in the above videos, I just recently did 405x10 “normal” bb rows, and my best bench is 345 lbs. Granted, I had a minor injury that held back my bench for a while, but that’s still a big difference. Having said that, my back is proportionately stronger than my chest, and I realize this. From a powerlifting point of view, it makes sense. I believe it’s safe to say that when it comes to repping out a bench weight (say, 6-12RM), your BOR strength should be QUITE a bit stronger. Hell, even with almost perfect form, I can rep out 315 on rows pretty easy. [/quote]
Okay, I’m not so sure they should be equal, I know I’m not. My BB bench is way higher than my BB row 405 bench vs. 350(ish) row 1RM.
However, DB rows (what I’ve typically trained more for back) I’m much stronger than my DB bench.
Yeah, I’ve watched your rowing videos, and you kill me at those.
Maybe I’m just weird.
[quote]kaoticz wrote:
how about cable rows?
Less stress on the lower back but still work the upper back
thoughts?[/quote]
I bench a lil over 300 and can cable row about the same. I always liked cable rows the most.
[quote]legacyfighter wrote:
[quote]hungry4more wrote:
[quote]legacyfighter wrote:
[quote]fuseven wrote:
Been deadlifting “heavy” recently and just haven’t been able to keep my upper back tight and it’s making me round everywhere…this looks like a good reason why.
Really appreciate the input guys, looks like I have to focus on rows for probably a good year or so since I’m lagging so badly.[/quote]
Something i’ve found recently that will really help keep your upper back tight is to do this: start your BOR by standing all the way up. Then when you lower to get into position, go down super slow and over exaggerate the arch in your back, while sticking your butt out. It should look alot like an RDL. Once you get your torso close to parallel to the floor it should be much easier to stay tight. I do all mine super strict though and can still pull some decent weight this way.
It sounds too simple, but it made a huge difference in mine.[/quote]
The whole stand up before you start rowing thing works well in “standard” BB Rows done with a stance basically like a conventional deadlift, doesn’t seem to work so well with a “semi-sumo” rowing stance, just something you should be aware of. [/quote]
Wow, i’ve never even thought about doing them with a semi-sumo stance. that just sounds like it would feel really unnatural. i’ll have to try it out next time.
[/quote]
I took his advice and started doing them this way. Previously, I couldn’t BB row because of balance and low back issues. No longer a problem. They are awesome!
[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
[quote]Akuma01 wrote:
[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
[quote]kaoticz wrote:
how about cable rows?
Less stress on the lower back but still work the upper back
thoughts?[/quote]
Cable rows are a good exercise, however, not a sufficient supstitute for free weight rows.[/quote]
I do both.[/quote]
His post implies doing cable rows instead of regular barbell.
I do both too.[/quote]
I see that, i was simply reinforcing your “dont substitute” message, with my “I do both.” I may not always do both in the same workout, but barbell rows is ALWAYS in the workout.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]hungry4more wrote:
[quote]Chi-Towns-Finest wrote:
[quote]hungry4more wrote:
You need to focus on working your back more, it’s a good thing you realized this on your own to some degree. Bent over row strength should be significantly higher than benching strength, so keep working at them, and there’s nothing wrong with some body english as long as you aren’t rounding your spine like a hunchback. [/quote]
By significantly higher, what percentage should it be higher, somewhere around 20%?
In the off-season I got my bench up to 2755 – I got 2753 on BOR with straps and a substantial amount of body english. [/quote]
Well as you can see in the above videos, I just recently did 405x10 “normal” bb rows, and my best bench is 345 lbs. Granted, I had a minor injury that held back my bench for a while, but that’s still a big difference. Having said that, my back is proportionately stronger than my chest, and I realize this. From a powerlifting point of view, it makes sense. I believe it’s safe to say that when it comes to repping out a bench weight (say, 6-12RM), your BOR strength should be QUITE a bit stronger. Hell, even with almost perfect form, I can rep out 315 on rows pretty easy. [/quote]
Okay, I’m not so sure they should be equal, I know I’m not. My BB bench is way higher than my BB row 405 bench vs. 350(ish) row 1RM.
However, DB rows (what I’ve typically trained more for back) I’m much stronger than my DB bench.
Yeah, I’ve watched your rowing videos, and you kill me at those.
Maybe I’m just weird.
[/quote]
No offense bro, but either you’re just REALLY good at benching naturally, or you have a pretty bad imbalance I would guess. Having guessed that…what kind of reps would you get for bench/rows at say, 275 or 315 lbs?