It has come up several times that people get good results from cheat curls, but does anyone employ a little body english on bent rows? when I first started rowing, I was super strict with the movement-lowered the bar to full extension, slowly brought it to my abdomen, paused, and lowered again. And you know what? I got absolutley no benefit out of the exercise because I had to use such a pathetic weight to maintain perfect form.
Finally I said screw it, upped the weight big time, and focused on pulling the bar towards me as fast as possible. At the midpoint I would push my chest forward a little to meet the bar, giving the whole movement a slight rocking motion. After only a few weeks “cheat rows,” I noticed dramatic improvements in my back. Plus, it just feels more natural this way. I’m for good form and all, but sometimes I think an absolute strict adherence kinda takes the primal nature out of lifting heavy stuff.
Something Prof X said in a thread somewhere really hit home with me:
“Good form= great results without injury”
Often times we (myself included) overanalyze this weightlifting stuff. If it works, do it. Finally, back to my original question, who has had success with “cheat rows”.
That quote doesn’t really express what he was saying. Its more like “Any form that produces results without injury is good form.” Yea, I prefer to cheat on rows too.
When I was competing in Olympic Weightlifting I used to do them with a lot of body english.
I would use a clean grip and a snatch grip and use the hips and legs a lot and pull the bar into my hips with my body just a little higher than parrallel to the floor.
Moved 200kg this way with the clean grip for six reps and had a back as good as anyone.
I do. Like others have said, if it allows me to overload my upper back without getting hurt, my upper back will get stronger from the extra weight. Same thing with chins and pull-ups. Besides, I’m doing it to improve my PL lifts- not to improve my rowing technique.
You can see that this man’s upper arm is much further back than you would ever see an arm when someone is doing seated rows or 1 arm dumbell rows with their arm flush to their side.
My point is, when doing bent over rows the last 4 inches or so up to your abdomen is not primarily done by the lats, but by the rear delts and middle traps, muscles that are much weaker than the lats are. So I dont think, if you want to target the lats, and the middle lats, rhomboids etc, you dont have to bring the bar all the way to your abdomen.
Because while a weight that will allow you to bring the bar all the way to you abdomen will work all the muscles through a full ROM, you will prob benefit more from going heavier, and stopping a few inches from your abdomen than using a weight light enough that you are limited by the weaker muscles in the movement.
I tend to only feel the lats for about 6" during the concentric portion. I can feel them for most of the eccentric portion. So what I do usually do is lift strictly for 6", power it up the rest of the way and let it down very slowly. Works for me.
I have seen a lot written on glute amnesia, and it just occurred to me that there might be something similar in lat amnesia, wheras the lats don’t contribute as much as they can and should and other muscles bail them out. Thoughts?
I have heard of a lot of people messing up their backs going heavy on these. To me it does put you in a compromising position. Why not do chin or pull ups? They will do the same thing and no back trauma.
Myself, I use them as strictly a hi rep movement after I do chins or pull ups for some extra hypertrophy and to hit the rear delts some.
I dont think anyone should be able to cheat row enough to injure their backs unless they’re doing something retarded. You’re lower back should be able to handle that kind of weight.
[quote]Deathroe wrote:
I dont think anyone should be able to cheat row enough to injure their backs unless they’re doing something retarded. You’re lower back should be able to handle that kind of weight.[/quote]
You haven’t seen some of the shit that I have seen at my gym when it comes to rows. Most people try and show off and use too heavy of a weight, all the meanwhile rounding their backs.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
I have heard of a lot of people messing up their backs going heavy on these.
I’ve heard of people hurting their knees squatting.
[/quote]
If you use really shit form while squatting or do it without a spotter you can hurt more than your knees.
I don’t get your point though. Squatting is an integral part of either powerlfting or strongman stuff, rows…aren’t. If I can do the same thing while chinning without the risk of blowing out a disk, why would I row?
Care to elaborate? I think that if you do different chin/pull up combinations that it will work the same muscles as rowing, with the exception of using your spinal erectors as stabilizers.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
I don’t get your point though. Squatting is an integral part of either powerlfting or strongman stuff, rows…aren’t. If I can do the same thing while chinning without the risk of blowing out a disk, why would I row?[/quote]
So you’re telling me that all of the world’s strongest men and elite powerlifters don’t do horizontal pulling? On this day, I have truly been enlightened!
Until you came along, I wasn’t aware that horizontal pulling was the same thing as vertical pulling. You shattered my paradigm and released me from a lifetime of blown discs.
[quote]AgentOrange wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
I don’t get your point though. Squatting is an integral part of either powerlfting or strongman stuff, rows…aren’t. If I can do the same thing while chinning without the risk of blowing out a disk, why would I row?
So you’re telling me that all of the world’s strongest men and elite powerlifters don’t do horizontal pulling? On this day, I have truly been enlightened!
Until you came along, I wasn’t aware that horizontal pulling was the same thing as vertical pulling. You shattered my paradigm and released me from a lifetime of blown discs.[/quote]
Instead of stupid sarcasm, why doesn’t one of the rowing enthusiasts explain to me why doing them will be more beneficial to my powerlifts than chin ups? Is that too much to ask?
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
Instead of stupid sarcasm, why doesn’t one of the rowing enthusiasts explain to me why doing them will be more beneficial to my powerlifts than chin ups? Is that too much to ask? [/quote]
Alright, I’ll stop being a dick and try to add something useful to this thread.
It has nothing to do with rowing being more beneficial than pull-ups. The point you seem to be missing is that rowing and pull-ups are completely different movements, since they occur in completely different planes of motion.
This is akin to saying, “which is better – overhead pressing or bench pressing?” Neither is better, they are completely different. In fact, you should probably do both if possible.
Rowing is not better than pull-ups and pull-ups are not better than rowing. In fact, I think there’s a pretty strong case that you should do both if your goal is to become an elite strength athlete.
Excuse me if I hijack the thread a little bit, but I hurt my lower back 7 days ago doing bent-over rows. I was on my 2nd set of 5, which is still light (my heaviest is 200lbs for 5 reps), and I was bending over with the weight when I felt a pinch of pain in my spine. I put the weight down and had to go lie down on the floor to wait for the pain to subside enough to let me walk. I couldn’t finish my workout and hit the showers after this.
I spent the rest of Saturday and Sunday just lying on the sofa, and my lower back has been hurting all week. It’s better now, but it will still be sore on Monday, when I was planning to get back in the gym. Obviously, I skipped the gym this week. I’m guessing I pinched a nerve as my discs are all in place (as far as I can tell) and I only took some ibuprofen the first two days.
Anyone have similar experience? Any advice to help with the pain and recovery?
On the subject of cheating, I only cheat slightly on the last set, which is the heaviest and is the one that really challenges me; the first 4 sets I am strict. I’m sure it’s beneficial to cheat, so long as the weight is light enough that you can control it on the negative. Remember that the negative portion of the lift also builds muscle.