[quote]nkklllll wrote:
Also, it doesn’t seem like a strength question (at least not purely a calf strength question), because I don’t seem many gymnasts able to do this either. Male or female. And I would venture to say that at the elite level (and college) that gymnasts must be AT LEAST as strong as ballet dances. Possibly even stronger in terms of how much force they could exert at any given moment.
However, gymnasts also have notoriously tight ankles, at least in dorsiflexion. I don’t know if that has any bearing on their extension or not. And the also don’t spend as much time standing with their calves raised (eleve?) so the muscle in their foot might not be as developed.[/quote]
This is an excellent post.
I’m glad you brought up gymnasts… I completely forgot about this group. This will be my next group to study.
Apparently the female gymnasts train intensively on their calves… and after a quick google search some are shown to reach extremely impressive heights on the balls of their metatarsals.
[quote]nkklllll wrote:
If you’re dead set on doing weighted calf raises: I’d say start with 80% of what you can do for 12 while getting into that really fully extension. Do 4 sets. Then, a crap ton of bodyweight ones. Add weight gradually, but only so long as you can get to that maximum extension.[/quote]
Thank you for this.
If I skip on the bodyweight calf raises, and opt to do the weighted sets 5-6 days a week, should I do more weighted sets, since I won’t be doing the bodyweighted ones?
I already do 96 bodyweighted ones a day and it doesn’t do anything for me. I will be posting pictures of myself in keeping track of my progress.
[quote]nkklllll wrote:
If you’re dead set on doing weighted calf raises: I’d say start with 80% of what you can do for 12 while getting into that really fully extension. Do 4 sets. Then, a crap ton of bodyweight ones. Add weight gradually, but only so long as you can get to that maximum extension.[/quote]
Thank you for this.
If I skip on the bodyweight calf raises, and opt to do the weighted sets 5-6 days a week, should I do more weighted sets, since I won’t be doing the bodyweighted ones?
I already do 96 bodyweighted ones a day and it doesn’t do anything for me. I will be posting pictures of myself in keeping track of my progress.
I’ll be sure to update this thread with photos.
[/quote]
I wouldn’t skimp on the bodyweight ones. I’d do them afterwards. I’m guessing you’re doing like 8 sets of 12 or something? You could make them harder by holding them for longer at the top or something. I’ve just had hip surgery and part of my rehab is static holds in my glutes, quads and abs, as well as holding glute bridges for 3 seconds. I’ll tell you, even my good leg feels a burn when squeezing my hammies and glutes as hard as I can for about 10minutes a day.
[quote]achilles007 wrote:
1.) Nowhere in my post did I imply that I was looking for “big bodybuilder calves”. Bodybuilding aesthetics have nothing to do with the “strength” I said that I am looking for. Read carefully next time.
2.) Deadlifts, Power cleans, Squats, Plyometrics, and Good Mornings are all activities recommended to sport athletes such as track runners, football, baseball, and soccer players in gaining strength to aid their movement. This is an agreed upon, established and respected performance aspect in the sports world with hardly anyone yelping about “arrogant newbz”. So why with Ballet? How is strength resistance training not be applicable here?
3.) I have already talked to my teachers about what to do at home in between classes. Do you know what they recommended? They recommended the popular ballet theraband exercises and the ballet footstretcher. Want an example of how bad the misinformation of the dance world is? These exercises, contrary to what is recommended, do not help in giving strength to ballet dancers, instead what they DO help in, is in giving them nice batches of onset achilles tendinitis. I know this because it almost became onset in BOTH of my ankles.
Thanks![/quote]
Sigh
No. But you’re asking about calf raises, which are a bodybuilding exercise meant to increase hypertrophy. Honestly, I’Ve never seen anyone prescribe calf raises for performance purposes.
You did not ask about weight training in general. As others have pointed out, I think lifting will be beneficial for you - in fact, I’ve heard of European ballet schools who make lifting mandatory for their (male) students. However, I don’t think weighted calf raises will help you very much.
Look at the picture you posted earlier and which I’m reposting here. The first foot position basically represents the end range of motion for weighted calf raises. Now, It’s not very hard to get there with your bodyweight (at least for a few reps, endurance may be a different story). Weighted calf raises will help you get better at getting to this position - however, and correct me if I’m wrong, this probably won’t be the issue.
What you are trying to get better at are positions 2 and 3, and the strength of the calf muscles is NOT the limiting factor for these. The calves will get you to position 1 and stabilise the ankle but the rest is ALL in your feet. extending your feet and keeping them rigid is what you need to get better at. This is the function of a number of small muscles, tendons, ligaments and joints directly in your foot which won’t get a lot of stimulus from typical weighted calf raises and training them heavy for low reps will most likely injure them; you wouldn’t train your rotator cuff directly with heavy weights either. (I’m not saying don’t train the rotator cuff, just don’t train it with low reps).
You talked to your teachers but, in spite of them having been doing this for much longer, you have discarded their advice without trying it first. ‘Listening’ doesn’t just mean to acknowledge that something has been said, it implies following the words.
So generally speaking, I think weight lifting could be a good addition for you; but I don’t think you’ll get very much out of weighted calf raises.
For the record, I’m not a ballet dancer but I’ve attended circus school courses where they make you walk on your toes; the feel and stimulus is very different than what you get from BB calf raises.
No. But you’re asking about calf raises, which are a bodybuilding exercise meant to increase hypertrophy. Honestly, I’Ve never seen anyone prescribe calf raises for performance purposes.
You did not ask about weight training in general. As others have pointed out, I think lifting will be beneficial for you - in fact, I’ve heard of European ballet schools who make lifting mandatory for their (male) students. However, I don’t think weighted calf raises will help you very much.[/quote]
Right. I agree, it sounds absolutely wrong. But if weighted calf raises could be ruled out as being of no use to the would-be en pointe dancer then why would the ballet pre-pointe classes consist of the ballet-equivalent of calf raises (releves/eleves) throughout the whole class? There is a tiny bit of mobility work in the beginning, but the whole hour and 30 minutes is dedicated to staying en releve positon?
I could understand if I was making this up myself. But this is strictly looking at the ballet syllabus itself.
I, myself, am doubtful of the conclusion, but tremendous strength garnered from repeated releves and eleves appears to at least be ONE part of the answer here. We can all agree on that, yes?
And if we can agree on that then the benefits of weighted vs. unweighted becomes the next sub-topic to hash-out.
Dude…unless I am just weird… there is no way the first foot position ISN’T ridiculously hard to get to.
When I first started, I thought I – as a guy-- I would be strong enough to obtain the first photo position thanks to years of football. Not at all! There isn’t a single dancer I know of outside of seasoned (8 years+) ballet professionals who can get that high on the balls of their metatarsals.
When I post a picture of my feet-- I will show you mine… it is nowhere near like the left-most picture.
I’m pretty sure almost no one in this thread get as high as in that illustration.
Well, at least We actually agree 100% here.
[quote]- however, and correct me if I’m wrong, this probably won’t be the issue.
What you are trying to get better at are positions 2 and 3, and the strength of the calf muscles is NOT the limiting factor for these. The calves will get you to position 1 and stabilise the ankle but the rest is ALL in your feet. extending your feet and keeping them rigid is what you need to get better at. This is the function of a number of small muscles, tendons, ligaments and joints directly in your foot which won’t get a lot of stimulus from typical weighted calf raises and training them heavy for low reps will most likely injure them; you wouldn’t train your rotator cuff directly with heavy weights either. (I’m not saying don’t train the rotator cuff, just don’t train it with low reps).
[/quote]
And this is the part that I, too, am still trying to hash out. Looking at the vid I attached of the ballet dancer, who rises to the tips of her toes @01:36 on bare feet-- it seems to me that she is able to do this because her ankles are so strong that the arches of her feet make the leverage of rising to her toes that much easier than it would for the average person’s whose calf raise height is as in the pic I’ve attached here.
But then again… that’s just my theory. i believe the majority of the battle is in getting TO position 1 of the foot with the position 2 pretty downhill with a bit of pointework in ballet class, whereas you believe position 1 to be pretty easy, with position 2 and 3 the most difficult.
I’ve emailed the Physiotherapist for more guidance on this subject and will post her reply.
Concerning the first bit: I believe that you mainly need isometric calf strength (and a lot of strength endurance at that) for ballet. So doing high reps with holding the peak contraction may actually work better = what ballet dancers do traditionally.
I attached a picture of my foot (now we’re getting really weird, I know). I’m not quite able to reach position 1, you’re right - I don’t do ballet so I have no issues with that. However, this is my peak contraction during a calf raise. I could also get to that pose with lot of extra pounds on my hips. But I can’t go higher - not even with both feet on the ground. So my weakness and I assume the universal weakness - lies in the end range of motion, where all the feet stabilising comes into play.
Lastly, feel free to experiment - curiosity is a good thing. But please don’t injure yourself.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
True. Also, heavy calf raises =/= unweighted calf raises with extreme toe extension. Though I do occasionally do what I call an “exaggerated farmer’s walk” for a little more calf work, basically deliberately over-emphasizing each step similar to the foot/toe position you’re talking about.[/quote]
CC, t h x for this. Genius modification [/quote]
Glad to help. I might toss up a video of it sometime, just to officialize it or whatever. I’ve been meaning to bring up the idea for a while.
[quote]achilles007 wrote:
[quote]RampantBadger wrote:
Walks, even gentle hikes in Five fingers/minimalist shoes might help[/quote]
Excellent advice!!
Is it because rigid tennis shoes would tend to hinder movement of the ankle?
Excellent![/quote]
Not for nothing, but this type of info was brought up in the article I linked to earlier. Not sure if you saw it, because you seem kinda distracted with rants about revolutionizing modern day ballet training.
If you do that, you’ll pretty much fuck yourself over. Seriously, that’s just a bad idea.
If you want to treat ballet like a sport, then, fine, treat your weight training as you would with a sport. Practice your sport a few days a week, or whenever you do, and complement that with a well-designed program a few days a week.
But your overemphasis of calf raises would be like a baseball player deciding that the most important thing he had to do in the weight room was weighted cable twists, because it mimics the swinging of a bat. Now that is some uninformed, old school thinking that needs updating.
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
Probably everyone here could benefit from some yoga, ballet, martial arts, or at least Mobility WOD stuff.
[/quote]
Not just everyone here; I’d argue everyone, period.
I started doing hot yoga just over 4 years ago, and currently practice 2-4 times a week. I sure wish I’d known about it when I was playing football; it would have been the perfect day-after-game “recovery workout” that I was seeking, and in the offseason it would have been hugely beneficial for mobility & core strength. As it is, I’m still glad that I found it at 24 and not at 44. I suspect it’ll help significantly with my “athletic longevity” overall.
An Excerpt from “The Perfect Pointe” (I think Powerpuff may have heard of this book):
"Test 1
Demi-pointe Range:
Start in a sitting position on a chair or ball. Slowly, push the foot up into a
demi-pointe position making sure to relax the toes. All the time keeping note
that the rest of your body is relaxed but controlled.
If possible, push slightly over the demi-pointe to test your full range, but
make sure to keep the ankle in line. Remember, you are only trying to test the
range of the joints here and not the strength.
90 degree angle is needed at the big toe joint.
-Toes long and relaxed on the floor."
"Test 5
Leg Rises in Parallel
Stand on one leg in the
parallel resting your
finger tips gently on a
wall or barre. Hold the
lifted leg in just off the
floor with the foot
pointed. Make sure that
the arches of the
supporting foot are
lifted.
Slowly rise up onto a full
demi-pointe and then
lower slowly. Repeat this
exercise and many times
as you can
It is very important that you can work your feet into a good height of demi-pointe.
It helps in strengthening the ankles properly with rises, and allows you to work all the correct muscles in the feet in preparation for pointe work.
If you find it hard to get onto demi-pointe, you will find it very hard to get onto full pointe and your ankles will be very wobbly!"
…
“Cause of Reduced Height in Demi-Pointe”
"If you can demonstrate a good demi-pointe position when you
are sitting, and not with rises, it means that you need more
strengthening. If this is the problem, practice “Double Leg
Risesâ?? in bigger sets (up to 30) and then try the single leg
version. If it is not possible to achieve demi-pointe fully even
when you are sitting, the big toe joint and the front of the
ankle are probably too stiff. Go back to the Stage 1 exercises
to loosen up the feet and improve your range. Also try using
a warm foot bath for at least ten minutes before doing these
exercises to help soften and warm up the muscles and
ligaments.”
Well-- this certainly does rule mobility out at least at THIS stage of development. Apparently mobility of the ligaments only becomes an issue if one is not able to obtain full demi-pointe range even with no weight on the feet. Strength is the issue if one is able to do so but cannot standing.
[quote]achilles007 wrote:
An Excerpt from “The Perfect Pointe” (I think Powerpuff may have heard of this book):
"Test 1
Demi-pointe Range:
Start in a sitting position on a chair or ball. Slowly, push the foot up into a
demi-pointe position making sure to relax the toes. All the time keeping note
that the rest of your body is relaxed but controlled.
If possible, push slightly over the demi-pointe to test your full range, but
make sure to keep the ankle in line. Remember, you are only trying to test the
range of the joints here and not the strength.
90Ã?? angle is needed at the big toe joint.
-Toes long and relaxed on the floor."
"Test 5
Leg Rises in Parallel
Stand on one leg in the
parallel resting your
finger tips gently on a
wall or barre. Hold the
lifted leg in just off the
floor with the foot
pointed. Make sure that
the arches of the
supporting foot are
lifted.
Slowly rise up onto a full
demi-pointe and then
lower slowly. Repeat this
exercise and many times
as you can
It is very important that you can work your feet into a good height of demi-pointe. It
helps in strengthening the ankles properly with rises, and allows you to work all the
correct muscles in the feet in preparation for pointe work. If you find it hard to get
onto demi-pointe, you will find it very hard to get onto full pointe and your ankles will
be very wobbly!
“Reduced Height of Demi-Pointe”
"If you can demonstrate a good demi-pointe position when you
are sitting, and not with rises, it means that you need more
strengthening. If this is the problem, practice “Double Leg
Risesâ?? in bigger sets (up to 30) and then try the single leg
version. If it is not possible to achieve demi-pointe fully even
when you are sitting, the big toe joint and the front of the
ankle are probably too stiff. Go back to the Stage 1 exercises
to loosen up the feet and improve your range. Also try using
a warm foot bath for at least ten minutes before doing these
exercises to help soften and warm up the muscles and
ligaments.”
Well-- this certainly does rule mobility out at least at THIS stage of development. Apparently mobility of the ligaments only becomes an issue if one is not able to obtain full demi-pointe range even with no weight on the feet. Strength is the issue if one is able to do so but cannot standing.
[quote]achilles007 wrote:
An Excerpt from “The Perfect Pointe” (I think Powerpuff may have heard of this book):
"Test 1
Demi-pointe Range:
Start in a sitting position on a chair or ball. Slowly, push the foot up into a
demi-pointe position making sure to relax the toes. All the time keeping note
that the rest of your body is relaxed but controlled.
If possible, push slightly over the demi-pointe to test your full range, but
make sure to keep the ankle in line. Remember, you are only trying to test the
range of the joints here and not the strength.
90Ã??? angle is needed at the big toe joint.
-Toes long and relaxed on the floor."
"Test 5
Leg Rises in Parallel
Stand on one leg in the
parallel resting your
finger tips gently on a
wall or barre. Hold the
lifted leg in just off the
floor with the foot
pointed. Make sure that
the arches of the
supporting foot are
lifted.
Slowly rise up onto a full
demi-pointe and then
lower slowly. Repeat this
exercise and many times
as you can
It is very important that you can work your feet into a good height of demi-pointe. It
helps in strengthening the ankles properly with rises, and allows you to work all the
correct muscles in the feet in preparation for pointe work. If you find it hard to get
onto demi-pointe, you will find it very hard to get onto full pointe and your ankles will
be very wobbly!
“Reduced Height of Demi-Pointe”
"If you can demonstrate a good demi-pointe position when you
are sitting, and not with rises, it means that you need more
strengthening. If this is the problem, practice “Double Leg
Rises�?�¢?? in bigger sets (up to 30) and then try the single leg
version. If it is not possible to achieve demi-pointe fully even
when you are sitting, the big toe joint and the front of the
ankle are probably too stiff. Go back to the Stage 1 exercises
to loosen up the feet and improve your range. Also try using
a warm foot bath for at least ten minutes before doing these
exercises to help soften and warm up the muscles and
ligaments.”
Well-- this certainly does rule mobility out at least at THIS stage of development. Apparently mobility of the ligaments only becomes an issue if one is not able to obtain full demi-pointe range even with no weight on the feet. Strength is the issue if one is able to do so but cannot standing.
[/quote]
Test 1- Part 2-- Trying desperately to push over the Seated Demi Pointe.
Not much changed. Meaning the first picture is basically my upper limit. Mobility isn’t the best in the world, but it’s certainly enough to rule out ligament or muscle tightness issues.
[quote]achilles007 wrote:
An Excerpt from “The Perfect Pointe” (I think Powerpuff may have heard of this book):
"Test 1
Demi-pointe Range:
Start in a sitting position on a chair or ball. Slowly, push the foot up into a
demi-pointe position making sure to relax the toes. All the time keeping note
that the rest of your body is relaxed but controlled.
If possible, push slightly over the demi-pointe to test your full range, but
make sure to keep the ankle in line. Remember, you are only trying to test the
range of the joints here and not the strength.
90 degree angle is needed at the big toe joint.
-Toes long and relaxed on the floor."
"Test 5
Leg Rises in Parallel
Stand on one leg in the
parallel resting your
finger tips gently on a
wall or barre. Hold the
lifted leg in just off the
floor with the foot
pointed. Make sure that
the arches of the
supporting foot are
lifted.
Slowly rise up onto a full
demi-pointe and then
lower slowly. Repeat this
exercise and many times
as you can
It is very important that you can work your feet into a good height of demi-pointe.
It helps in strengthening the ankles properly with rises, and allows you to work all the correct muscles in the feet in preparation for pointe work.
If you find it hard to get onto demi-pointe, you will find it very hard to get onto full pointe and your ankles will be very wobbly!"
…
“Cause of Reduced Height in Demi-Pointe”
"If you can demonstrate a good demi-pointe position when you
are sitting, and not with rises, it means that you need more
strengthening. If this is the problem, practice “Double Leg
Rises�?�¢?? in bigger sets (up to 30) and then try the single leg
version. If it is not possible to achieve demi-pointe fully even
when you are sitting, the big toe joint and the front of the
ankle are probably too stiff. Go back to the Stage 1 exercises
to loosen up the feet and improve your range. Also try using
a warm foot bath for at least ten minutes before doing these
exercises to help soften and warm up the muscles and
ligaments.”
Well-- this certainly does rule mobility out at least at THIS stage of development. Apparently mobility of the ligaments only becomes an issue if one is not able to obtain full demi-pointe range even with no weight on the feet. Strength is the issue if one is able to do so but cannot standing.
[/quote]
Test 5-- Standing Demi-Pointe
I’m not bending my legs, I was pulling my shorts up with one hand around my legs as they were falling off of my behind because of the tights.
