Ballet - Achieving Monstrous Ankle Strength

Training
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[quote]achilles007 wrote:
Hi!

Beginner male ballet dancer here.
To make a long story short I need monstrous ankle strength to go from here:

to here:

with hopes of finally ending at here:

The teacher told me it would take on average 3-4 years of “releves” and “eleves” using just my bodyweight to build up the appropriate amount of ankle strength in order to do the above. The “eleve”, is nothing more than a simple standing calf raise, and the “releve”, is a bending of the knees before springing up into the standing calf raise.

Bodyweight is a waste of time. I need weights. And heavy ones. Strength training was because it IS more efficient in building strength compared to calisthenics. If my conclusion is correct then those who have been training their calves via weights should have the strength to stand pretty high up on their toes, similar to a ballet dancer as they are both utilizing the same movement and muscles.

My question(s) are: Does anyone think the conclusion I am coming to is a flawed one? Also anyone with any experience with calf raises want to weigh in on ankle strength gains they made and how high up they can stand on their toes?

Thanks all![/quote]

I see what you did there :

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nighthawkz - Thank you! Made my day. I’m turning 45 next week.

ActivitiesGuy - I think it’s good for recovery too, and just for being awesome. :slight_smile: And maintaining balance and coordination, something that decreases with age. Watch anyone over 40 try to balance on one leg and you can see it. I did a lot of pilates this winter and decided it isn’t for me, but yoga is perfect, and probably more user friendly for most people. And you can develop an at home practice. I spent a lot of years as a runner, with very little attention to any mobility. Rarely stretched, and really tightened up my hamstrings, especially. I like the idea of a balance of resistance training/ some cardio conditioning / and mobility stuff just for general fitness and well being.

achilles007 - Sorry, I can’t be of more help. Above my level of expertise. You’d really want to talk to someone with a more advanced ballet background.

Roybot - Interesting article. I don’t really want to hear that BW calf raises equal a lot of hypertrophy, but I think mine are as big as they’ll ever be.

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^Is fat. Does not have jacked shredded calves that were built through undulating repeated dynamic effort hybrid periodization layer conjugate schemes. Can stand en pointe.

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[quote]marrot wrote:

^Is fat. Does not have jacked shredded calves that were built through undulating repeated dynamic effort hybrid periodization layer conjugate schemes. Can stand en pointe.[/quote]

You also forgot to mention the fact that she didn’t take a single ballet lesson either. Or maybe that’s what you meant?

Either this is a freaky case of genetics here… or it has to do with her training in an Irish dance troupe when she was younger. And Irish dance troupes do not have their students spending years “preparing for pointe work”. They simply throw the kids in those shoes with a hard box in the front and make them stand on their toes while having them hold on to a chair for balance.

If she is indeed the example by which to go by-- then not only is everyone on this thread clueless, but the ballet world would have doubt casted on its current training principles even further.

This girl has better pointe range than most seasoned ballerinas! Just look at 00:41! By the end of her releve in the 2nd position she is WELL over her toe box! Something even advanced pointe dancers struggle with.

I’ve seen this video a hundred times… and could swear that I must have tried contacting her a hundred times more! :frowning:

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[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
nighthawkz - Thank you! Made my day. I’m turning 45 next week.

ActivitiesGuy - I think it’s good for recovery too, and just for being awesome. :slight_smile: And maintaining balance and coordination, something that decreases with age. Watch anyone over 40 try to balance on one leg and you can see it. I did a lot of pilates this winter and decided it isn’t for me, but yoga is perfect, and probably more user friendly for most people. And you can develop an at home practice. I spent a lot of years as a runner, with very little attention to any mobility. Rarely stretched, and really tightened up my hamstrings, especially. I like the idea of a balance of resistance training/ some cardio conditioning / and mobility stuff just for general fitness and well being.

achilles007 - Sorry, I can’t be of more help. Above my level of expertise. You’d really want to talk to someone with a more advanced ballet background.

Roybot - Interesting article. I don’t really want to hear that BW calf raises equal a lot of hypertrophy, but I think mine are as big as they’ll ever be. [/quote]

Actually, you were plenty of help and added a lot to the discussion. I, myself, am just theorizing based off of what I’ve read.

I asked my teachers today about this same subject and they stared at me cluelessly.

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[quote]dt79 wrote:
I don’t know anyone aside from actual ballet artistes that can hold that 3rd position without weeping like a little girl.[/quote]
Third position (of the feet) involves the heel of one turned out foot (leg is rotated outward from the hip) being adjacent to the arch of the other foot (i.e. approx midway between the heel and toe). From the front, the one ankle ahead obscures the other directly behind, so it appears as though there is but a single ankle aesthetically. (Fifth position has the first heel adjacent to the toe of the other foot. From the front, both ankles are visible with a gap between them. Position subtle details vary slightly depending on Russian / Italian / French etc. style, e.g. gap between ankles or not)

The second image shows the one foot on 3/4 pointe with the lifted foot behind in coups de pied position (neck of the foot) also with turn out.

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I don’t know if the guy will ever come back, but if it’s of interest to anyone else, I ran the question by my GF who is a former professional ballet dancer as well as a DPT.

She said calf strength is only important to initiate demi pointe. If you can get to this point, you have all the calf strength you need. From there, it’s the extensors and flexors of the toes that matter; there is very little calf strength involved.

Once en pointe, the stabilizers of the foot and ankle act in concert through co-contractions to keep you en pointe.

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[quote]achilles007 wrote:
Do you see the first girl in the photo/ the two girls behind her?

The other two are on “full pointe”, she is on “3/4 pointe”. The key to going on “full pointe” is developing the strength to hold “3/4 pointe” wherein one can thoughtlessly rise over the toes and go into full pointe.
[/quote]

I am not sure how it is that you assume/ conclude that ankle strength is key. Advanced ballet technique is far from thoughtless and involves the whole of the body, in terms of torso, head/neck, arms, in addition to legs, hips, ankles, feet and toes. Men who dance on highest 3/4 pointe aren’t necessarily able to ascend to full pointe, let alone thoughtlessly.

Your original post isn’t explicit ablut what you are actually trying to achieve long term. Is it to actually be able to dance on point on both feet or on one foot alone, wearing reinforced toe shoes? If so, then there is lots more involved than mere ankle and/ or calf strength and flexibility/mobility/ passive range of motion.

Ballet technique and training approaches have evolved for 300 years. Scientific research are now part of the modern regime. Weight (resistance) training is only done selectively because if it leads to excessive muscle bulk, this is considered highly undesirable from an aesthetic, artistic perspective. Comparing this classical movement form to sport in general has limitations, but this might not be immediately obvious to the novice ballet trainee I suspect.

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[quote]achilles007 wrote:

Youtube video [here]

Again… the key is to develop sufficient strength to achieve height in the 2nd photo I attached. From there… it is all relatively downhill.

Ballet training is still needed, but you’ve overcome a hell of a lot.[/quote]

I think most serious dancers would agree that having attained basic competency to statically rise to 3/4 pointe it is far from ‘all relatively downhill’ from that stage onwards. Rather it would be quite the opposite with their challenges only just beginning, to be able to execute increasingly more demanding, dynamic technical moves en pointe (not simply rising and elevating holding on to a barre for support as appears on the video.). The correct use of the rest of the body, including engaging muscle groups ‘in opposition’ which is counter intuitive, is continually and regularly having to be trained and maintained. It is not a mechanical sport-like movement being sought but rather a delicate, effortless-appearing fluid artistic phrasing of movement co-ordinated to music and frequently to other dancers or partner(s). There is always the risk of slipping of point and career-destroying injury resulting which is not so common in sport.

Dancers’ feet have to be able to assume un-natural shapes, positions and configurations, almost deformed. Their feet are hyper flexible and not just passively mobile. Gradual training and conditioning prepares dancers as their body’s physical components adapt to the constantly evolving stresses and forces being introduced and layered on top of existing functionalities. I suppose one could try to accelerate development of some components (e.g. muscle endurance) in isolation and out of phase with other, complementary aspects and elements, but what would be the point if this?

Rule of thumb, it takes upwards of 8 years of near daily consistent conditioning to reach ballet’s starting point. Even after many years in an elite academy training 6 days a week some aspirants don’t progress or advance to the next stages.

Weight training has some selective, specialized applications however. Pilates is a lot more prevalent as is cardio cross training.

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[quote]achilles007 wrote:

This is a “releve”:

Please show me where in the world at ALL does that exercise (either turned in or turned out) CEASE being a calf raise?

Power cleans are not a movement that is identical to the movement of every single sport professional that adopts such an exercise-- yet it certainly is FUNCTIONAL enough to aid in the explosive movement(s) of many sports players…
You mean to tell me, that heavy calf raises can’t do the same here, when they are virtually identical?

[/quote]

At a superficial level there certainly are similarities between ‘the releve’ focus on the feet/ankles and with calve raises. But keep in mind that this is a very elementary video to help illustrate some basic external mechanics and do’s and donts for unsophisticated beginners just starting to be introduced into the forms of technical ballet. It is merely meant to emphasize one aspect, the suppination and pronation (don’t) of the foot at the ankle joint. But that is but the tip of the iceberg of the ‘correct form’ compared to a calf raise. This video is simply one foundation element in isolation. The rest of the body (legs, hips, torso, arms, neck etc.) is also very actively involved in synchronized combination however this is not evident or obvious to rhe untrained novice eye. If one simply concentrates on calf muscle hypertrophy or development without paying close strict attention to other elements, then subtle bad habits can frequently become habituated that have to be addressed at some later stage since the malfunctions hibder or prevent proper technical development. That is why the conditioning seems ‘slow’ because different objectives are being pursued following different ideals from sport. Explosive jumps, yes, but with control over a myriad of minute other considerations, for if it was simply a case or question of seeking to develop muscular power alone and quickly, then yes head to the weight room. But there is so much more to it than ‘calf raising’. So a wider deeper analysis will reveal that while at one basic level the two balletic and sport movements appear to look identical, that is only a superficialistic impression devoid of depth of understanding.

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[quote]achilles007 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
it seems to be far more a mobility and balance issue than a strength one. I can get up further on my left foot than my right.[/quote]

For “balance” you should be able to hold on to a wall. I agree with you on mobility.[/quote]

Use of an external support (free standing or wall-attached barre) helps the trainee to concentrate on gradually building up the muscle memory and other instinctive physiological reflexes and mental patterns and images and flexibilities that are needed to execute movements and postures unaided. Some maneuvers rely on the support of a (pas de deux) partner. Again, it is not a collection of isolated attributes (balance, strength, mobility) but rather a whole package of integrated mind-body attributes, including musicality, emotion, etc. Actual sports that involve expressive movement to music like rhythmic gymnastics share some similarities but are judged more according to sport criteria than to artistic.

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[quote]achilles007 wrote:
Very true! Heavy calf raises do not equal unweighted calf raises with extreme toe extension.

But the key to getting the toe extension lies in the calf raise itself, which is where the strength from the heavy calf raise could come in. This is the reason why ballet dancers practice releves and eleves over and over again. And intensify it right before they go en pointe as they will spend the whole class period in a calf raise position.

In the picture. Foot to the left-most part of the screen must be obtained. Sufficient strength from that transfers over into the toes such as in the video I attached above, achieving the foot in the center. With training in the actual pointe class, however, is when foot at the right side, with optimum ankle mobility is achievable.
The problem is… the magic rub lies in the fact that the foot even at the left-most part of the picture is difficult to obtain for the majority of us. It takes a helluva a lot of strength just to get to THAT point. And THAT is the point that I am emphasizing that heavy calf raises should be able to get someone to much quicker, than bodyweight exercises.

Well… at least we agree on the need to “update” such an archaic way of gaining strength!

Calisthenics was nice… a long time ago. As a previous athlete-- I have seen some huge strength gains during the football off-season, to not consider doing the same here.

Why not?

Agreed on the aspect of over-training. Unfortunately adults do not get the same quality training as children. Children get 5-6 classes a week for 1.5 hours a day. This is the gold standard! Adults, however, are lucky to find a studio that accepts them. And when they do, we only get–such as in my case-- TWICE a week for only 1 hour.

TWICE a WEEK!! That is way too much time in between classes to be sitting around and not doing anything… There isn’t a single human activity on this planet that I know of wherein twice a week for one hour per session would make anyone competent in anything…

No wonder they gave me a time range of 4 years. There is no excuse for ballet in denying weight resistance training here. I’m thinking… 5 days a week… heavy standing calf raises… 4 sets by 12 reps??? Yes or No??

I’m 180 lbs. I guess I’ll start off at 135 and increase from there?

================================================

Your analysis keeps getting stuck on ‘the key’. There’s a lot more going on in the ankles/foot/toe that aren’t a function of the calves. The foot has to be able to arch adequately for example, arch in an extreme range that most people have trouble achieving, especially after adolescence. Why keep insisting that things are ‘archaic’ all the time? You can have the strongest calves going, but if the rest of your anatomical function doesn’t work in a complementary way (from complete or completion) then you win the battle but lose the war.

Twice a week is for recreational dancers who cant afford the time to be dancing more often. Progress is by definition slower. Whereas serious young students who have the time dance anywhere from twice to six times per week, starting from a lower and working to a higher regimen. They are also specially selected for their physical characteristics such as flexibility, bone structure, body mass etc for an ideal body type and trainability.

Even if a person adopts a pre-professional ballet training regime (6 days a week) that is no guarantee that he will progress in a more accelerated way compared to the rest of his class nor attain leading (above average) results, there are so many factors to take into consideration.

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[quote]achilles007 wrote:

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
The kind of issues you mentioned, like tendonitis, would be more common with dramatically/inappropriately increased volume or intensity. Like going from zero calf work to 100 reps every day of the week.[/quote]

It actually has more to do with the way ballet dancers point their feet, in which the theraband wraps around the front end of their toes compressing it the back of the ankle and impinging the achilles tendon.

^^This is why the ballet world needs to be “updated”. Seriously. Achilles Tendonitis is no joke.
This isn’t something that kids made up as an on the fly exercise. This is something that their teachers TOLD them to purchase and DO every week

Notice what the PhysioTherapist recommends as a replacement? Seated eleves with the legs extended!!

[quote]Maybe that’s the timeframe he’s seen necessary to build strength, conditioning, and mobility in all the tiny-tiny support structures of the toes, feet, and ankles.
[/quote]

C’mon. Since when at all-- ever in any athletic event-- does bodyweight exercises beat out weight resistance in terms of strength gained much more efficiently?

Why has the WHOLE SPORTS WORLD turned to weights, when calisthenics is arguably much older and cheaper and can be done anywhere?

I think we all know the answer to this. Strength gains made via weights will be better than all the bodyweight pushups in the world. Even DOUBLE so for the lower extremities of the lower human body which were made for constant punishment of carrying the whole human body.

I understand wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt. But the dance world being scared of weights is just dumb.

How much weight do you think I should start with? I only weigh 180 lbs.[/quote]

You don’t seem to get that the feet have to be conditioned, separately but in conjunction with, the other muscluar development. The latter is in no way ‘the key’ to the former, not sure why you believe this so strongly. Your logic is seriously flawed (‘because I can only get into an adult class 2 hours per week where I live, then ballet should involve weights.’ !) The ballet world is indeed certainly well aware of and makes certain use of weight training - but just not in the way that you think they ‘ought to’. Now why would that be and is it the ballet world who is really being dumb here?

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Dan Seur ^ I don’t know if the OP is still following, but thanks for the interesting and informative analysis. So much going on with the feet. And so true about the time required to progress, even if you have really advantageous genetics. For my purposes, a 2 hour class twice a week will really help with flexibility/ posture as a balance to my lifting, but 4 hours a week would never make me “really good”. :slight_smile: Ballet is humbling that way.

About adult classes, in my area the community college has a really wonderful program, for far less money than the private studios. The teacher is a former NY professional dancer, with an amazing understanding of body mechanics. She could take any of the lifters here and watch them walk/ move, and she’d spot areas of imbalance/ tightness/ weakness/ postural problems and be able to give you a program to correct.

A lot of people could probably reduce their risk of pain/ injury by having someone like her check them out. I’ve mentioned this before, but there are always a couple of men who take ballet from her as a supplement to their martial arts training. Lots of parallels there, so it was no surprise that they excelled.

For the next thread -----

Ballet will make you taller. All that spinning deloads the back. :wink:

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I don’t know if the guy will ever come back, but if it’s of interest to anyone else, I ran the question by my GF who is a former professional ballet dancer as well as a DPT.

She said calf strength is only important to initiate demi pointe. If you can get to this point, you have all the calf strength you need. From there, it’s the extensors and flexors of the toes that matter; there is very little calf strength involved.

Once en pointe, the stabilizers of the foot and ankle act in concert through co-contractions to keep you en pointe.[/quote]

Thanks for sharing, Doc. Wow your GF. You had mentioned that she had a dance background but I didn’t realize that she had been a professional dancer and is now a DPT. I’ll bet she’s really good at helping you correct any postural/ ROM issues. Nice. Does she lift with you?

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[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
Thanks for sharing, Doc. Wow your GF. You had mentioned that she had a dance background but I didn’t realize that she had been a professional dancer and is now a DPT. I’ll bet she’s really good at helping you correct any postural/ ROM issues. Nice. Does she lift with you?

[/quote]

She’s terrific at helping me correct my postural issues, of which I have many.

We do go to the gym together, though we only lift together on push days. She doesn’t do legs (I think I mentioned before that when she was dancing she had 15" or 16" calves with a 22" waist) and because she’s hyperflexible, she doesn’t do pulls either. She spends a ton of time on stabilizing her joints and then we come together to do do push workouts.

btw, I just finished Missy Copeland’s book. I think you’d enjoy it if you haven’t read it already.

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
Thanks for sharing, Doc. Wow your GF. You had mentioned that she had a dance background but I didn’t realize that she had been a professional dancer and is now a DPT. I’ll bet she’s really good at helping you correct any postural/ ROM issues. Nice. Does she lift with you?

[/quote]

She’s terrific at helping me correct my postural issues, of which I have many.

We do go to the gym together, though we only lift together on push days. She doesn’t do legs (I think I mentioned before that when she was dancing she had 15" or 16" calves with a 22" waist) and because she’s hyperflexible, she doesn’t do pulls either. She spends a ton of time on stabilizing her joints and then we come together to do do push workouts.

btw, I just finished Missy Copeland’s book. I think you’d enjoy it if you haven’t read it already.
[/quote]

I recall thinking that we had very similar builds, by your description. Large calf to small waist ratio, anyway! Good point about hyperflexibility. Not necessarily desirable, depending on what your goals are, right? And someone who was a professional ballerina has way more flexibility in the spine and hips than is required for just “being fit”, and certainly way more than you might want if your goal is to be super stable for something like lifting a lot of weight. Nice to talk to you. I wish you guys were local. Would love to double date.

And thanks for the reminder about Misty Copeland’s book. Haven’t read it yet, but I will. I’ve been scoring a lot of free ebooks from our awesome library for my Kindle. Now I don’t even have to drive over there. So perfect.

See ya, Doc.

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[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

Sigh. Isn’t she stunning? Thanks for posting. I hadn’t seen that.