I’m doing Stronglifts 5x5 in the “extended” version focused on arms. The program looks like this 3x a week (A and B are simply switching):
Training A:
Squats 5x5
Benchpress 5x5
Pendlay Rows 5x5
Triceps Dips 3x10
Skullcrushers 2x8
Training B:
Squats 5x5
Overhead press 5x5
Deadlift 1x5
Pull-ups 3x10
Biceps curls 2x8
I’m rather happy with the program, aside from 2 things: a) I’m not really seeing much visual change after few months, but the worst thing is my upper chest - literally no development to the point, where lower part seems to be outgrowing the upper and it starts to look kinda weird and b) I’m unable to do more than 2 chin-ups in a row, as my biceps seem to be really small and weak.
To deal with these problems I’m trying to employ a 4th day a week, where I’d address both of these problems. Unfortunately, I’m not sure, how to do it efficiently, i.e. how to really add something to upper chest hypertrophy and also to my arm strength, especially chin-ups.
My guess is this:
Incline benchpress on multipress 5x10
Low to high cable fly 3x10
Partial range chin-ups 5 sets of whatever number I can do
Chin-up isometric holds 3 sets of 10+ seconds
What do you think about it? Currently I’m trying to run it like this, but I’d definitely welcome any advice on how to improve it.
Also, what weight progression would you use on the incline (multipress) bench in this rep range? +2.5kg every training session?
More info about my training can be found in my log, if necessary: Journey to Size
Theres probably 1,000 forum posts (here and elsewhere) about how to add hypertrophy work to stronglifts. Common themes are to just add what you want, or switch to something like a 5/3/1 variant which is very similar but has a bit more of a structure for other work in it.
If you want to add these exercises to your program you basically have 2 options… Add those exercises to your other days (increasing training demand but maximizing recovery time) or add the extra day like you are proposing (which adds an extra stimulus, but reduces recovery time)
I havent given stronglifts a look in a while, but “spiritually” I think adding stuff to the work days feels like it keeps with the spirit of the program more.
Ultimately the only way to assess it is to try it and see how it goes. Give it 12 weeks and see what happens, then try it the other way and see how it happens. You’re gonna be training the next 6 months anyway, might as well do this and see what happens and then you will know from experience.
Stronglifts is a novice program meant to be run for 12-16 weeks so that you learn how to lift weights before you start really training. You have exhausted its capabilities in that regard. Adding onto it is not the solution: it is time to employ a non-novice program.
If the goal is size and simplicity, I like 5/3/1 BBB and it’s many variants. And you can’t beat the classic Super Squats or Dan John’s Mass Made Simple
Well, yes, I’ve added chin-ups, biceps curls, triceps dips and skullcrushers to the work days. With that, I was feeling, that I could do more and that my biceps and upper chest is completely lacking, so I decided to add one more “bonus” day, aside from the program.
But yeah, we’ll see, my guess is, that I’ll need more chin-up work…
I’d like to get stronger on “big 3” and not to specialize only on incline benchpress… That said, if I’m unable to compensate for this strange muscle development otherwise, I’ll go for that
Also, chin-ups at home seem nice - I’ll have a look at some bar to buy…
Here I do understand you completely and I must say you’ve really motivated me with SuperSquats both now and the last time you recommended them to me
As I was mentioning in some other thread here, I’d like to get really strong at the basic lifts first (like 140kg for 5x5 squats) and get into muscle building fully afterwards. Stronglifts so far seem to be working in making me stronger, but yeah, the lacking biceps and the unaesthetic chest are bothering me, as I wasn’t expecting it to be this bad…
So, what do you think about this? Or do you think, that Stronglifts will stop working completely in a while?
It seems like muscle building/physique improvement is the goal that is at the forefront of your mind, and in that case I suggest the same thing a few others have and that’s to change your training program. Look for something that includes work for your upper chest. A bodybuilding program is a good idea because it will help create balance in your physique and work some small muscle groups that have been neglected in the 5x5 scheme.
These would be my 2 favorite Bodybuilding programs on this site. Give them a go, but make sure you’re following the dietary guidelines and getting a ton of protein in. These programs aren’t for wimps, so make sure you hop into this with the right mindset!
It’s less I am a fan of that and more the fact you picked Stronglifts because it’s simple and you have expressed in previous replies you have limited knowledge of how to train. Super Squats, BBB and Mass Made Simple are simple programs that achieve the goal of gaining mass. A trainee who wants to employ a program like Stronglifts because of it’s simple nature can still follow these programs to success. More complex programming requires a willingness to be more complex.
The way you get really strong IS by muscle building. The way you make muscles stronger is by making them bigger. Otherwise, you’re simply becoming BETTER at lifting: not stronger. That’s what novice programs do: they get you better at lifting REALLY quick. And then you hit a wall, because you can only get so good so fast, and once you maximize that, you now have to start building SIZE to get strong again. That’s why you run stronglifts for 12-16 weeks.
You are spot on here, I should’ve read more of his replies, but you’re right, he’s not ready for anything too complex like the more advanced programs I suggested. You’re also right that he needs to focus on muscle building to achieve that strength, and that’s the error in psychology that a lot of beginners have.
Also when he mentions how bothered he is by not having any upper chest development, it seems he’s aware he needs more muscle mass and it’s bothering him. That tells me it’s time for a change. Super Squats and BBB feature a lot more work for bringing up smaller muscle groups. That would be infinitely better than tweaking a program that he’s outgrown to try to make it something that it isn’t.
It should also be noted (not for you, but for our friend here) that complex doesnt mean better, or more effective. Sometimes complexity is needed to address a complex issue, but “gaining mass” need not be complex, and those simple programs will do just that.
Actually if its one thing that marks the advancement into a more “wise” state of a trainee (of any endeavor really) its the ability to see that simplicity can be just fine. The beginner in many endeavors can often fall prey to the idea that “more is better” or that “complex is better”, but often times many of us circle right back around to “back to basics” and “a punch is just a punch” so to speak.
It seems clear to me that this trainee has gotten what StrongLifts has to offer and, as you say, is ready to move onto a more appropriate program.
Push/Pull/Legs is definitely a cool setup. And it can be as basic or as complicate as you want to make it.
If you’re interested in going that way you could try the Jeff Nippard stuff. Or you could check out a couple article from TNation for inspiration.
Here’s a neat one where you do 1 full body workout similar to StrongLifts to build “basic strength.”
Then you do push/pull/legs so you can focus a day on figuring out upper chest and tricep, without having to get tired out squatting first. And another day to build more pulling strength in your back and arms, without being tired out from deadlifting and pressing first.
Here’s another more general one about the benefits of Push/Pull/Legs, and how it lets you focus, emphasize and prioritize by limiting overlap in your workouts. It explains the reasons why you may want to Evolve or Progress beyond a simple A/B full body plan.
@davemccright and @Lonnie123 Appreciate the add ons dude. You really nailed it there Lonnie. Complexity is a necessity only AFTER simplicity fails. And Hell, if you’re a mutant like Ronnie Coleman, you can employ simplicity to 8 olympia wins.
@FlatsFarmer I LOVED Paul’s old stuff like that. It was this exact simplicity we speak of. And these days, Paul is FAR more nuanced, most likely for the above: he used simplicity until it stopped working.
My plan after your comments to keep Stronglifts to get to PR, which was very close (5x5 115kg on squats) and after that switch to some bodybuilding routine, preferably Super Squats.
Unfortunately, for the last two weeks I’m lying with some fucking flu or covid or whatever this is - basically fevers every few days, strong cough and a significant exhaustion, so that I’m unable to lift at all… Well, hopefully during the next week I’ll get better.
Once more, thank you all!
@T3hPwnisher For SuperSquats, how fast “newbie gains” would you expect? I’m not asking with some “Olympia in 4 weeks” mindset, but with the intention of checking the progress, i.e. if I’m doing it well or not, as I have very little experience with muscle building at all.
All newbie gains refer to is the phenomenon that, the further away you are from your maximum potential, the faster you progress toward it. It’s not unique to lifting: it applies to all activities.
If you’ve never played guitar before, I could hand you a guitar and teach you 3 power chords in the span of an afternoon, and you could most likely play a simple song on it. In one afternoon, you went from 0 guitar skills to playing a song: RAPID progress. Each day you continue to practice, you’d rapidly develop your skillset on it…until you no longer do. After a few years, you’d pretty much sound the same day to day, and would just be slowly building up, but after 20 years, you’d be a guitar master.
It’s the same with lifting. The first few months of training, you explode because you’re so far away from your max that you’ll rapidly improve. As you get closer, you put in SO much more effort for so little growth, but you keep at it long enough and you’ll move far. 1lb a year, over 20 years, is 20lbs gained, and when that 20lbs is muscle, it’s VERY impressive.
For Super Squats itself, just follow the progression and you’ll be good. 5-10lbs added to the squat EVERY workout.
I don’t make dietary recommendations in general. Nutrition is individual. I HAVE done a gallon of milk a day, and did so when I ran Super Squats the first time, and I prefer high fat vs low fat diets, but these days its the sugar content of milk that makes me find it less than ideal.
