ZEB On Chin-Ups

wise11 · October 14, 2004, 10:47am

There’s a DVD that came out about 2 years ago called the “Thug Workout” showcasing urban blacks demonstrating improvised bodyweight exercises in city parks. They show some impressive variations of chins and pullups–check it out.

poper · May 5, 2005, 3:05pm

Yo ZEB,

Whats the highest number of pullups you’ve ever seen anyone do, either at an actual competition or just messing around?

poper

LA1 · May 5, 2005, 4:07pm

Since the thread already got a bump…

malonetd, I didn’t see the results of your chin contest. How did you do?

LA

Doh · May 5, 2005, 4:15pm

what if, i can’t do 33% of my chin-up reps in pull ups? Should i just do as many of it as i can then?

jcbainno7 · May 5, 2005, 5:20pm

ZEB,
Great post! any advice on the one arm chinup though?

Jamie

chillain · March 12, 2006, 6:43am

bumped

Lift4Life · March 12, 2006, 5:41pm

[quote]ZEB wrote:
(Discalaimer-all advice given by me in this thread works very well for me! These techniques have also been tested on many others and shown to work well. You may not think that my theorys are valid, so you do not have to follow my advice. There are many ways to train the body-and finding out which ones work for you is the key).

This is a long post, but hopefully it will be worth it to you by adding another 5, 10, or more, chins to your one set max.

Many of you have expressed an interest in learning my Chin/Pull routine. I have gotten many PM’s and a few messages on a previous thread. So, sit back and allow me to give you "Zebs 12 rules for Chin-up greatness (Hey, I needed a name and that one is as good as any).

First I will begin by giving you my stats. “Big D” stated that I might have “monster pipes with an itty-little body attatched to them.” Not true! I am 5’ 10" and 188lbs. with a current body fat of 8.5%. My arms are 17 1/2". My neck is just barely 17". My chest is 48". Legs 26 1/2", calves 16 1/2".

I can dumbbell bench press two 105 pounders for 6 clean reps. I can also squat 365lbs. Nothing extraordinary, but certainly not all Pulling power and no push or legs. Oh, and for those of you who have not read this before on the “Age Please” thread, I am 48 years old, and been training for just about 35 years. (I know I am older than your Dad).

I like to think that I am pretty balanced relative to strength and symmetry. There is nothing that really stands out about my physique, other than the fact that I have obviously low body fat, compared to the average.

Now onto the Chin routines:

There are different ways to train Chins/Pulls all based upon your own particular goals. If you are after large lats I suggest that you focus on doing lower reps, but not as low as other body parts. I have have found that the Lat muscle grows best when it is stretched. This muscle needs to be sort of gently “pulled” away from the rib cage. I have done Chins with a 100lb plate before and never really saw the growth take place that happens when I am training in the 8 to 12 rep range.

Training For Size:

If you want to focus on making your Lats larger I suggest training Pull-ups first when you hit the gym. Train four sets. Keep the reps in the 8 to 12 area as already suggested, and rest no more than :60 between sets. This may be a bit difficult at first. But try to work your way to that :60 rest period. Begin with :90 and shave off a few seconds each time.

When training for size train between 32 and 50 reps two to three times per week. I have had the most success expanding my lat size shifting back and forth between two and three times per week. With a week off after three or four weeks, depending on how you feel.

When training for size make sure that you do the reps fairly slowly with a slight pause at the top of the bar and also a slight pause at the bottom. A set of 10 reps should take you at least :30. Longer is fine, shorter is no good! After each set stretch the Lats by putting your arm over your head from the side and leaning in the opposite direction of the arm that is over your head. If you are putting your right arm over your head to stretch your right lat, lean to the left. Hold the stretch for :15 to :20 seconds. Then do the other side.

For Those Who Are Unable To Do Even One Chin:

The biggest fallacy that I have seen regarding Chinning is that you can get better at it by doing Lat pulldowns. That is like saying that you will get better at public speaking by chewing your food! They both move the jaw bone but thats about as much as they have in common. The Lat machine will not help you become better at Chin-ups.

If you are unable to do one Chin I suggest the following: Find a Smith Machine and place the bar about eye level. Then get a bench and place it in front of the bar a few feet. Grab the bar in Chin-up or Pull-up position while placing your feet on the bench. This position should be easy enough for you to knock off 6 reps or so. If you are unable to do this, then lower the bar in the Smith Machine a few more inches and try again. You will eventually find just the right height.

I have instructed others to use a Smith Machine as one was available in their gym. However, the same thing can be accomplished with any bar that is at a lower level. This can even be done under a regulation Chin-up bar if you have something to place your feet on. You may have to get creative, but the idea is the same. You want to mimic that motion as best you can.

In addition to this I also suggest climbing up to a regulation Chin-up bar and holding yourself in the “up” position for a few seconds, and then doing a negative. Begin the first week by doing one set of three negatives, no more! Try to take at least :5 to :10 seconds to do the negative, if possible.

A third alternative, depending upon how far along that you are, is to have someone assist you from behind. As you grab the Chin-up bar and begin to pull, have your partner grab you from behind (Get your mind out of the gutter wideguy), by placing his/her hands on your lower waist. Then have him/her help lift depending on how much assistance that you need. Whatever you do, do not use the Lat Pulldown machine thinking that this will help you with Chins/Pulls. It may build the Lat (not as good as Pullups) but it will not actually help you do Chins-ups or Pull-ups!

Training Children:

old dogg, nice of you to remember that I have a son who is now 11 years old. He knows that I am writing this to you guys and told me to let you all know that he is able to perform 15 perfect dead hang chin-ups. He weighs 105lbs. His goal is 20 for this summer.

I think the worst thing that any father can do is push to hard when it comes to having your child train with you. Most of us know that. What I did was expose my child to training at an early age. But, I never “made” him train. I just had him around while I was training (home gym). I always felt that Chins, Push-ups and free Squats where great for kids at any age. So, my son was doing these things as early as 4 years of age. (at 4 he just hung from the bar). No real program, just whenever he wanted to.

Kids like to do what is fun, so I tried to make it fun for him. I would first ask him how long he thought he could hang on a bar. “Just like that guy that was hanging from a tree over a cliff in the movie last night.”

When your child is comfortable hanging on the bar for :30 to :60 it’s time to do some assisted chins with you as his helper. Always being ready to stop when you see that it is not fun for him anymore. After he gets a little older, say 9 and up, he is ready to do a couple of sets. And I rarely push my son to failure. I might say something like “hey can you do four sets of five reps of chins?” And if I get the response that I like then we go for it. If he is involved (mentally) in something else I don’t push it. But, I think low reps and more sets is the way to go with kids.

I also surround the activity that I want repeated with something that I know he loves. When he finishes the chins I might make him a special shake in the blender. Anything that he likes and that is good for him always helps.

(Okay get up and go to the bathroom, take a drink and then come back as you are only half way through at this point. There is more to cover!)

ZEBS Championship Chinning Routine: (I know…I know… I am pushing it

When you are trying to add reps to the total you want to make sure that you are training Chins three times per week! I agree with Pavel who stated that greater “synaptic facilitation” (greasing the groove)occurs when you are doing them more frequently. I do not agree that you should train them everyday, as Pavel suggests. I think this leads to burnout, and I have been there as well.

I begin what I call “intensive training” about four weeks away from a Chin contest. This means that I cut back on most of my other exercises and focus primarily on Chins and Pulls. Keep in mind that I always add 3 or 4 sets of overhead presses as I feel that you need to balance a “verticle pull” with a “verticle Push.” Most of the other exercises that I normally do such as squats, deads etc are dropped from my schedule four weeks out.

This also has a strange effect on the body. Since your body wants to stay at a certain weight it tends to sort of shift the weight from say your legs to your lats and biceps. This does not occur to a large extent, but it does happen and it helps a great deal.

We are doing 12 training sessions. That is 3 workouts per week for four weeks. We are really going to go for the reps now!

I am going to perform 5 sets. 3 sets of Pull-ups and 2 sets of Chin-ups. All reps should be performed in perfect form, with maximum speed! You may wonder why I am recommending Pull-ups, since it is easier to perform more reps with Chin-ups. I do this for two reasons: First, The Lat muscle is worked harder with a Pull-up than a Chin-up. When we turn the hand around (palms facing you) you are doing a Chin-up and you are also allowing the bicep muscle to do more work. This is great, you want strong biceps, but the lions share of the work needs to be done by the Lats!

The Lats are a larger muscle and therefore need to be trained to do more of the work. The lats will get more work with Pull-ups (palms facing away from you) than with Chin-ups. So, I like to train mostly with Pull-ups in order to get more Chin-ups in the contest.

The second reason that I train more Pull-ups than Chin-ups is that I have noticed through the years that people tend to injure their forearm tendon doing to many Chin-ups. You may have experienced this. It can become so sore that you can’t even make a closed fist. When performing a Pull-up this does not occur.

I begin workout one by doing reps in the 33% range of what I want my one set total to be in the contest. For example, last summer I was shooting for 30 reps (I got 31). So, I trained with 10 reps in that first workout (four weeks away). I did 3 sets of 10 Pull-ups with a 2:00 rest in between each set. I then waited 3:00 and did an additional two sets of 10 in Chin-up style. Rest periods can climb as the reps do. I like to add about :10 to :30 of rest each week (starting with a base of 2:00) between each set. If you are unable to get your required reps don’t force it out. Drop from the bar count to :10 (or more if need be) grab the bar and complete the set.

When training for reps forget about short rest periods between big sets. You need to rest and recoup in order to put up the big numbers. sort of like how a powerlifter trains. You do not see a powerlifter resting two or three minutes between sets. They rest a long enough to recoup. We won’t rest as long as a typical powerlifter, but we will rest longer as the reps go up.

I then gradually take the numbers up. the 2nd and 3rd workouts, of the first week, I do 40% and 43% of the one set goal! Again three sets of Pull-ups and two sets of Chin-ups.

The second week I am doing 50%-53% and 60%. Third week:60%-63%-67%. On the fourth and final week I switch to all Chin-ups in order to nail that specific groove. I also lower the sets and try to raise the number of reps. When I do this I also raise the amount of rest time between each set from 2:00-3:00 to 4:00 to 5:00 and sometimes a bit longer.

For the final week I am at 75%-80% and 85%. I am now only doing no more than three total sets each workout. On the final two weeks I also do two sets of negatives, no more than 10 reps per set, with a 10lb wt. belt on. I perform negatives in the top half position as this is my weakest point. If you have a hard time getting out of the hole then do negatives in the bottom half only.

Summary Of ZEBS Chin-up Methods:

Focus on Pull-ups during training to build the Lat muscle and prevent injury to the forearm.
Never Chin/Pull with a wide grip as it will cause injury to the shoulder. Close grip actually builds the Lat muscle better anyway. When in the four week “intensive training” use the same grip that you will use in competition. Prior to this phase you can vary your grip to make it more fun and cut the boredom.
During the final 4 weeks before a contest drop most other exercises from your regime, except a good vertical push movement for balance. I also do a little cardio to keep the body fat at bay! Make sure that you do not gain body fat during this period!
Do all Reps with maximum speed as this will develope a cadence, and you will also be on the bar for less time. The 31 Chins that I did in a contest last summer took me exactly :60 to complete. That is just less than two seconds per rep!
For beginners, never try to work with the Lat pull down machine in order to be able to do a Chin-up. Use the three methods that I have outlined.
Make sure a childs training is fun and never work them to failure, unless they want to on occasion.
Work negatives with a little extra added weight, in your weak area. Don’t over do the negatives two sets are plenty.
Never wear gloves-feel the bar! (I have never seen thick bar chin training help your “pull”. It does however help your grip.
The less body fat that you have the more chins you will do! If you are 12% body fat at two-hundred pounds, that means that you are carrying 24lbs of fat up and down that bar. If you are only 10% body fat (and kept the 200lb weight) you have shed 4lbs of fat! If you don’t think that makes a difference try adding a couple of small plates next time you Chin. You will do at least one to three less reps!

When I am competing I do so without my shoes. Who wants to pull them up and down that bar?. I attribute the extra rep that I got in the finals to the fact that I kicked my shoes off before I began!

Just as you are grabbing the Chin-up bar, “over grab it” squeeze and roll your clenched fists back toward you. This will lock your grip in tightly and you will feel like you are part of the bar. That sounds a little nutty, but it works so well.
Keep your knees bent and feet back a bit. Try to arch your back, almost the way you do when you are benching, but not as tight. This will give you the best leverage.
Pick a spot to gaze at as you are cranking out the reps. Focus on that spot and block out everything else.
Do your reps in groups to mentally break them down. If you are trying to do 20, just think about nailing the first 10 as you are doing them. When you get 10 think I can do 5 more. Then when you get to 15 get excited as there are only 5 more to do to get to your goal!
When training for size keep the reps in the 8 to 12 area. Make sure you stretch the lat between sets. And remember to keep the reps a little slower, about :3 per rep, with a slight pause at the top and bottom.

In my humble opinion Chin-ups (Pull-ups), are the upper body squat! Matters not if you are going for high reps or lower reps, while pulling some weight, just do them! I rarely do any other upper back work. When I do barbell rows or T-bar rows I am able to keep up with those who are my weight, and even bigger, and do those movements all the time. I attribute this to Chins!

They work your Lats, Biceps, forearms (and grip), abs, traps and even the chest and triceps a little, as they are supporting muscles.

Well that about does it gang. Thanks for staying with me. I am sure that I left some things out, but I will be darned if I can think of them right now.

If there is ever anything that I can do to assist anyone in their training you may either post a question or PM me.

Best Of Luck,

ZEB

[/quote]

Oooo, it might have been bad advice to state:
“When you are trying to add reps to the total you want to make sure that you are training Chins three times per week! I agree with Pavel who stated that greater “synaptic facilitation” (greasing the groove)occurs when you are doing them more frequently. I do not agree that you should train them everyday, as Pavel suggests. I think this leads to burnout, and I have been there as well.”

I went from doing 8-10 to 25 wide-grip in a months time from doing them everyday (but I didn’t goto failure everytime).

Everyone’s different, I suggest trial and error sometimes.

Dorso · March 12, 2006, 6:28pm

Okay. Why did you quote all of that?

Joe_D · March 13, 2006, 3:38am

Perhaps he should have just quoted the first paragraph?

[quote]ZEB wrote:
(Disclaimer-all advice given by me in this thread works very well for me! These techniques have also been tested on many others and shown to work well. You may not think that my theorys are valid, so you do not have to follow my advice. There are many ways to train the body-and finding out which ones work for you is the key).[/quote]

Julius_Caesar · June 26, 2006, 9:43pm

Just out of curiousity, what sort of 1 rep max do you have on a chin up?

In my own system, I do a set to failure of bodyweight chins after 2 attempts at a 1 RM and one overload rep.

So far, I can hit 144 for a one rep max at a bodyweight of 185-188. After this I can hit a set of 16.

I usually exclusively train with palms facing towards me but now I think I will throw some palms away sets into the mix and test your theory.

mertdawg · June 26, 2006, 10:10pm

[quote]ZEB wrote:
First I will begin by giving you my stats. “Big D” stated that I might have “monster pipes with an itty-little body attatched to them.” Not true! I am 5’ 10" and 188lbs. with a current body fat of 8.5%. My arms are 17 1/2". My neck is just barely 17". My chest is 48". Legs 26 1/2", calves 16 1/2".

I can dumbbell bench press two 105 pounders for 6 clean reps. I can also squat 365lbs.
[/quote]

Zeb, with those measurements and an 8.5% bodyfat, you would have to have about the best physique on this site-maybe a tad small by Proff X’s standards, but at 48-49 years old? You’ve got to give us a picture some time.

Also, how did you get 26.5 inch thighs at 8.5% and with a squat of just 365?

Just curious. I had 26 inch thighs and couldn’t squat 365 at one point, but it was because I really didn’t know how to squat.

Phil_SC · February 25, 2007, 2:51pm

ZEB,

I just found this topic using the search function.

I know you posted it some time ago…but man, this is realy good info for me to put to use.

Thanks, and keep it up.

Tim_Henriques · February 25, 2007, 4:10pm

Zeb, thanks for putting this together, just stumbled across it. Very good advice that is well laid out. To throw my own .02 cents in I really like heavy weighted pull-ups/chin-ups once you can bang out like 12 or more bodyweight ones, but it is tough to do those 3 times a week.

Thanks again.

Maldoror · February 25, 2007, 7:35pm

I just did 14 perfect dead hang pullups, at a bodyweight of 200lbs. 15 was my goal a few months ago.

Deus_Ajuda · September 12, 2007, 2:32pm

[quote]ZEB wrote:
From my own personal experience I have found that most men have a difficult time performing 10 clean dead hang Chins! I think 10 is a great first goal for those who do not train Chins.

It has further been my experience that very few men can accomplish 20 consecutive dead hang chins. It takes the right sort of person and training to get to 20. 20 clean dead hang Chins is an outstanding accomplishment and quite rare!

I have found the following to be quite important relative to getting higher numbers in Chins:

Low body fat- This is really essential if you are going to go for the numbers. I have never seen anyone with body fat over 14% or 15% who could do 20 consecutive dead hang chins. (And many times the person has a body fat considerably lower, perhaps 10% to 12%). I am not stating that such a man does not exist, but in all of my years I have not seen one!
Lats and Biceps- Lets face it these are the two primary movers when it comes to Chin-ups. I have never seen anyone who could do high numbers of chins, who could not also do a pretty heavy weight in the Barbell (or dumbbell) row. Also, can you Barbell curl half your body weight for 20 reps? Like high reps Chins this takes strength as well as endurance.
Hips- I have never seen a great or even good Chin-up man with big heavy hips and legs. In my case while my legs are not small, my hips are fairly narrow, compared to my shoulder width. This is simply something that you have to work around. Just as a long armed Bench Presser has a disadvantage.
Endurance-As I have repeatedly stated performing a high set of chins takes wind! It feels very much like an all out sprint.

Here is my own scale (my opinion only, not science):

5-9 Chins-Doable by most with a little training.

10-14-This takes some training in most cases. It can be achieved by anyone with work.

15-19-Many men will stall in this grouping, as it takes time and intent to achieve this level.

20-24-It is rare that this is accomplished by many. This takes not only specialized training but also persistence over a long period of time. Most quit before ever getting to this level.

25-29-To get to this level you have to have the proper build as I mentioned earlier. In addition you need the proper training and a long period of time to dedicate yourself to the task.

30+ Practically unheard of! While I am sure that many men have accomplished this feat I do not personally know of any (other than myself) who have broken past 30 consecutive dead hang Chins.

Some of you may have an uncle or cousin who claims to be able to perform 30 consecutive dead hang Chins (or more). Well, maybe they can, or maybe they just think they can! I suggest you set up a time and place to test them and I will bet that most, if not all of them fail. When I state “dead hang” Chins that is exactly what I mean! All the way down, and all the way up!

I will go so far as to state that I think 20+ consecutive dead hang Chins is at least equivalent to a 400lb. Bench Press in it’s rarity.

Again these are simply my own opinions. If you disagree with them I don’t mind one bit.

Some of you had some interest in what was good relative to Chin-ups and I hope that this addressed those points.[/quote]

I’m 15, and I’d like to get your advice on both pushups AND chinups/pullups. I don’t have the equipment to train chinups at home (all trees are very close to the ground, no adequate doorways, etc). I’m 71kgs, 5ft 6, and I’m unsure of my body fat percentage, but I believe it must be quite low, as I have visible abs and compete in Judo at a national level.

I used to be capable of a reasonable number of pressups (about 75 when I was 13), but this number has DECLINED rather than increased with training. My pullup record is 20, my chinup record is 16. I can also perform a one handed 3 finger pushup, although understandably this has no positive effect on the number of consecutive two handed pushups I can perform.

My goal is 100 pushups and 20 chinups, consistently (i.e. I can consistently attain these numbers). Do you have any specific advice for reaching this goal?

I have a video of my 3 finger pushups, but the only recent photo of my physique is 2 years old. I can obtain a more recent one quite easily with my camera if it would be helpful.

Deus_Ajuda · September 12, 2007, 2:41pm

[quote]ZEB wrote:
From my own personal experience I have found that most men have a difficult time performing 10 clean dead hang Chins! I think 10 is a great first goal for those who do not train Chins.

It has further been my experience that very few men can accomplish 20 consecutive dead hang chins. It takes the right sort of person and training to get to 20. 20 clean dead hang Chins is an outstanding accomplishment and quite rare!

I have found the following to be quite important relative to getting higher numbers in Chins:

Low body fat- This is really essential if you are going to go for the numbers. I have never seen anyone with body fat over 14% or 15% who could do 20 consecutive dead hang chins. (And many times the person has a body fat considerably lower, perhaps 10% to 12%). I am not stating that such a man does not exist, but in all of my years I have not seen one!
Lats and Biceps- Lets face it these are the two primary movers when it comes to Chin-ups. I have never seen anyone who could do high numbers of chins, who could not also do a pretty heavy weight in the Barbell (or dumbbell) row. Also, can you Barbell curl half your body weight for 20 reps? Like high reps Chins this takes strength as well as endurance.
Hips- I have never seen a great or even good Chin-up man with big heavy hips and legs. In my case while my legs are not small, my hips are fairly narrow, compared to my shoulder width. This is simply something that you have to work around. Just as a long armed Bench Presser has a disadvantage.
Endurance-As I have repeatedly stated performing a high set of chins takes wind! It feels very much like an all out sprint.