Hows that push up article coming along Zeb? I don`t want to seem pushy but the chin up article has had me chomping at the bit!!
I hope no one minds me topping this.
Zeb, if someone were training for pull-ups and not chin-ups would they just do 3 sets of chin-ups then 2 sets of chin-ups and only chin-ups on the 4th week?
Thanks,
-Zulu
Zulu,
If you are training to perform Pull-ups only, skip the Chin-ups completly!
The only reason that I work the Pull-ups along with the Chin-ups is to help prevent injury. The Pull-up (palms away from your body) is a more natural way to train, as that is the way one would climb.
However, because of the bicep muscle having more involvement, most people are able to perform more Chin-ups than Pull-ups.
So would I do 5 sets of pull-ups then (just replace those chin-up sets with pull-up sets)?
Zeb,
This is the first time I have seen this “article” and I just wanted to say nice job. We disagree on many things, but it seems we agree on the importance of chinning.
I just wanted to add that I am by no means skinny and chinning/pulling variations are always in my back workouts. I don’t like to see bigger guys avoid chinning because of their size or weight.
I’m 5’6", 215 lbs, and around 18% bodyfat and I can still hit around 20 consecutive chins(give or take, I haven’t worked reps in a while). One thing that has really helped me is weighted chins. Vary the weight! Don’t always use a 10, 25, or whatever. Go heavy one day; go lighter the next. Use bands and chains, too, if you have them. Keep your body guessing.
The result of me often using weights is when I do bodyweight chins, I feel lighter. I’m sure it’s just as much psychological as it is physiological, but it works.
Don’t let your size stop you from chinning. Bodyfat is not a priority for me, but I feel if I’m going to be “bigger” I better be able to pull my weight, literally.
Right now I have been working and reading up on one-armed chins. I’m sure it will take me a while to accomplish one, but I will do it. And I will let the Nation know when I do.
Keep Chinning,
Todd
PS Zeb, can you do any one-armed chins?
Zulu,
I would say that 4 to 5 sets is plenty. Keep the same percent and rest schedule as suggested in my original post.
Good Luck!
Maloneted,
You are 215lbs. at 18% body fat and you can still knock off 20 or so dead hang reps? Very, very impressive!
I have done 10 consecutive one arm chins. I think it is more a matter of balance in addition to strength.
Zeb- it is not quite clear to me what you suggest as a routine outside of the 4 week peaking program, if your general aim is to increase the overall number of pull ups/chins. Can you elaborate?
I agree entirely on the specificity point. While some people have apparently achieved good results by using “density training” i.e multiple sets of low reps as loopfit has indicated, in my case and others it merely improved the ability to crank out high volumes of low reps but not significantly a single set of high reps.
Pavel’s approach of GTG may work well but I think that Bass and others have reported that without structural changes to the muscles the numbers of reps improved by a “neural” approach can fall off pretty rapidly if high frequency is not maintained.
10 one-arms is really bad-ass.
Do you think that you need a certain level of max strength to do really high rep chins?
Just asking this out of curiosity (right now, I’m only at about 15, on my way to 20, so I’m using standard methods), but all of the people I know or have heard of who have done 30+ did it by virtue of really high max strength from gymnastics.
Thanks for taking the time,
Ross Hunt
ZEB, thanks.
Peter,
"without structural changes to the muscles the numbers of reps improved by a “neural” approach can fall off pretty rapidly if high frequency is not maintained. "
That’s a good point. Would GTG be a good idea when working on perfecting your form for the first few weeks?
peterm533,
You made a very good observation regarding Pavel’s GTG training. I could not agree more!
If you want to get good at swimming you must swim. If you want to get good at hitting a baseball you must hit a baseball. If you want to get good at doing high rep chins you must do high rep chins! It’s as simple as that. Anyone who tells you differently is trying to show you an “easy” way to gain. A way to cheat the system is always appealing to those who are hungry for success.
I am here to tell you that there is no easy way to succeed! Not in chins, or life for that matter. The only way that I have regularly gained reps to my sets (and the only way I have been successful at training others) is to train regularly (but not every day)and slowly and methodically add reps to my sets. With, I might add, suffcient rest between sets.
As far as simply training chins, when I am not peaking I usually train them only twice per week. I have found that to be enough.
I am currently working on a couple of new techniques that I have been experimenting with over the past two months. If and when I have the positive results that I am after I will post the workout. I can tell you this right now, it’s not easy, in fact it’s a killer!
Ross Hunt,
We all know that a high level of max strength is very helpful. If you can press 250lbs over your head for one rep then you should be able to put 100lbs over your head easier than someone who struggles with 250lbs. In most cases that is.
Some of us are blessed with fast twitch muscle fibers others with slow twitch fibers. I have found that those with the slow twitch fibers have a bit better shot at high rep chins. But only a bit. I have also found that when you are training high reps chins that cardio comes into play. It takes me over one minute to perform 30 chins. When I drop off the bar my heart is racing. Somewhat like a quarter mile sprint (not quite as exhaustive, but similar in many respects).
I think training is the key! As I have already posted train for high reps and you will become better at them. I think that someone who straps 25lbs on to do their chins is not training properly for high reps. Unless of course it is part of a total seasonal training routine. In the winter months I too train weighted chins/pulls. It breaks up the routine and I find it fun to see how much weight I can add with in my six week program (each year I have gotten stronger). I might do two six week periods like this (not back to back).
Overall, however your program must ultimately reflect your goals. Successful Powerlifters do not train high reps most of the time-you should not train low reps on the chin bar most of the time if you are after one high rep set. Furhtermore, you should not train several low rep sets thinking that performing 10 sets of 5 reps each is going to get you to one set of 20 reps faster than training up to those reps in a systematic fashion.
Again, some may disagree. I can only post what has worked very very well for me and those I have trained. If you don’t agree with me please do your own experimentation. If you come up with a different set of successful conclusions please post them, and then I can learn from you!
Good Luck,
Zeb
10 one arm chins is amazing. Are these pure one armed? With the other arm free and not holding anything?
Tell me more about one arms. Do you or did you train for them? What level of strength did you have when you started doing them?
From my short time experimenting and training for one arms, I found it to be feat of great strength. You’re pulling your whole body with one arm!
There’s no room for high rep training when you’re trying to get your first one armer.
The last two weeks have been sort of an experimentation of my one arm pulling strength to see where I stand. I have tried some one armed variations of Zeb’s “smith machine chin.” I have also done one hand hangs. I tried two hand chin ups/one hand negatives but right now my negatives are so fast I have to slow myself down with either resistance or assistance.
I have also tried one armed lat pull downs. I am doing this to help build strength in each “one arm.” I think this is comprable to a 175 lb person wanting to chin, but can only lat pull 40 lbs. You have to build up some initial strength before you try to pull your own weight.
Like others have said, you will get better results if you can do partner assisted chins, as opposed to the lat pulldowns. I think this would be true for one arms, too, but right now I am without a partner.
“Hey buddy, can you spot me? Yeah, on the chin up bar. Can you hold my ass and push me up?”
Anyway, I’m still new to the one arm chin and don’t know anyone personally that can do any, so I’m looking here for help. I am open to advice from anyone out there that has/can do them.
Thanks,
Todd
I guess that GTG may well be helpful in the early learning stages as suggested but long term it is not my preferred method of training but as in all things if it works for you and you like the method then by all means be pragmatic and use it.
On one arm chins I think that the received wisdom is that it requires a
fair amount of learning to apply force in a very specific way which is not entirely related to general chinning ability. For a comprehensive article on one arm chins look at the lengthy article at dragondoor.
May I add my voice to those urging Zeb to let us have his press up program.
Peter
I have read the one arm chin articles on dragondoor. I am just looking for more people that have accomplished this feat. I am eager to learn more and how they did it. And by finding people on here that have done it, I have the ability to ask questions.
ZEB,
Thanks. I'm using a mixed-bag approach right now (CrossFit+a little max strength training via gymnastics on the side); if I make any stellar gains I'll post them.
Ross Hunt
ZEB! You rule!
A great ‘article’!
Keep it coming. I am going to use your tip concerning the Smith Machine to increase my Chin Ups. (at 265LBS I can olny do 2 sets of 11-9).
Thanks a bunch.
Does anyone here now of any norms on chin-up performance based on body weight? I’m very lean and do not do chin ups on a regular basis, yet I can do 21 chins @ a body weight of 150lbs. It be nice to know how I compare to others in my weight class. (I have long arms and a short torso, by the way.)
I really don’t think there are “norms” as far as chinning goes. It is a very individualized thing.
Great post ZEB, awesome info 
Thanks!
From my own personal experience I have found that most men have a difficult time performing 10 clean dead hang Chins! I think 10 is a great first goal for those who do not train Chins.
It has further been my experience that very few men can accomplish 20 consecutive dead hang chins. It takes the right sort of person and training to get to 20. 20 clean dead hang Chins is an outstanding accomplishment and quite rare!
I have found the following to be quite important relative to getting higher numbers in Chins:
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Low body fat- This is really essential if you are going to go for the numbers. I have never seen anyone with body fat over 14% or 15% who could do 20 consecutive dead hang chins. (And many times the person has a body fat considerably lower, perhaps 10% to 12%). I am not stating that such a man does not exist, but in all of my years I have not seen one!
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Lats and Biceps- Lets face it these are the two primary movers when it comes to Chin-ups. I have never seen anyone who could do high numbers of chins, who could not also do a pretty heavy weight in the Barbell (or dumbbell) row. Also, can you Barbell curl half your body weight for 20 reps? Like high reps Chins this takes strength as well as endurance.
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Hips- I have never seen a great or even good Chin-up man with big heavy hips and legs. In my case while my legs are not small, my hips are fairly narrow, compared to my shoulder width. This is simply something that you have to work around. Just as a long armed Bench Presser has a disadvantage.
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Endurance-As I have repeatedly stated performing a high set of chins takes wind! It feels very much like an all out sprint.
Here is my own scale (my opinion only, not science):
5-9 Chins-Doable by most with a little training.
10-14-This takes some training in most cases. It can be achieved by anyone with work.
15-19-Many men will stall in this grouping, as it takes time and intent to achieve this level.
20-24-It is rare that this is accomplished by many. This takes not only specialized training but also persistence over a long period of time. Most quit before ever getting to this level.
25-29-To get to this level you have to have the proper build as I mentioned earlier. In addition you need the proper training and a long period of time to dedicate yourself to the task.
30+ Practically unheard of! While I am sure that many men have accomplished this feat I do not personally know of any (other than myself) who have broken past 30 consecutive dead hang Chins.
Some of you may have an uncle or cousin who claims to be able to perform 30 consecutive dead hang Chins (or more). Well, maybe they can, or maybe they just think they can! I suggest you set up a time and place to test them and I will bet that most, if not all of them fail. When I state “dead hang” Chins that is exactly what I mean! All the way down, and all the way up!
I will go so far as to state that I think 20+ consecutive dead hang Chins is at least equivalent to a 400lb. Bench Press in it’s rarity.
Again these are simply my own opinions. If you disagree with them I don’t mind one bit.
Some of you had some interest in what was good relative to Chin-ups and I hope that this addressed those points.