In regards to what Patricia had mentioned, I think you misunderstand what she means. If I understood her right, I also agree with her method as there are more ways to skin a cat. The total volume of a workout is very important, without reaching failure, or getting near it, during any one set. You’ve mentioned Pavel Tsatsouline in your post and this method is one of his mainstays. Reaching failure is good for hypertrophy, but if the goal here is to improve total reps in one set, then we are focusing on muscular endurance and hypertrophy is not important for this. Doing lower reps, but for many sets, will give us the volume while keeping our neural system fresh. So instead of doing 3x10-15reps, one can do 10x3-5reps. This will give you the same work output in both examples, ie: 3x 10 reps @ 200lbs bodyweight= 6000 lbs lifted/ 10x 3 reps @ 200lbs bodyweight= 6000 lbs lifted. Same total volume, however in the low rep example you are staving away from muscular failure. The trick to this method is to keep rest intervals short. This is where I think you misunderstood the correlation with this method and the powerlifting method. Many of today’s powerlifters don’t rest 10 minutes between sets, on the contrary they use very short intervals since the low reps tax the neural system which requires less rest than the muscular system. The neural system doesn’t need as much time to recover between sets. This is the basis of the Westside System which is so successful. Therefore, the rest periods for the low rep/high set chins should be kept very short. A good method was introduced to me by Ethan Reeve, Strength Coach for Wake Forest University. Work with 2x your goal reps, say 30 total reps for one set. Use this number(60 reps) from the get go, but use low reps and high sets to reach it, ie: 5rx12 sets with 1 minute between sets. When this becomes easy, you can decrease the rest intervals by 5 seconds until you get the rest intervals fairly low. It shouldn’t take long before 30 continuous reps is achievable.
Ironlung,
I have seen a couple of these machines in action, one that I recall is the Graviton.
It’s easy to sit here and respond that no machine is as good as you and the bar. And I would be right in stating that. However, for those who are serious about back developement, and really want to Chin/Pull, but are just not strong enough these machines can serve a purpose, at least in the short term.
The good part is that the counter weight will enable even the heaviest person to perform at least one Chin-up, (Pull-up). If the person is conscientious they can continue to add reps and lower the counter balancing weight. I do think that they are better than the Lat pull down device, as you are moving your body, albeit assisted, through space. I would only suggest that you move to a real bar as soon as possible.
The bad part is the actual motion of a Chin-up (Pull-up), is different when there is no place to put your feet/knees. In other words when you are ready to try a real Chin-up, or Pull-up your center of gravity will swing forward and the motion will have a much different feel to it.
A person who may have worked for several weeks on an assisted Pull/Chin machine, and has the counter weight even down to 5lbs. may still not be able to do an unassisted Chin-up on a real bar. They will however be a lot closer to completing the rep had they never used the assisted Pull-up machine.
the best way to work up to one unassisted Chin is to work with a training partner. If one is unable to find a training partner for assisted chins, I suggest, as stated in my post, that they use the Smith machine bar with a bench to rest their feet on. You simply raise the bar higher, and further away from the bench as you get stronger.
Another way to attempt an assisted Chin/Pull is to use the colored bands that Dave Tate and the Westside crew recommend for increasing the three powerlifts. Loop the band around the Chin-up bar and then place one foot in the end loop. As you pull yourself up you will feel slight assistance from the band. If you need even more help either get a stronger band, or use two weaker bands one for each foot/knee. Again, this is not the exact feel of a pure Chin-up or Pull-up, but everyone has to start somewhere, and this is as good a place to begin as any, if you train alone.
Good Luck,
Zeb,
I saw the props people gave you for this post on the off topic thread, but this is the first I’m seeing your “article.” Nice job man…sounds like a fun way to switch up training–I’ve been stuck at like 13 reps max for years now because I do a lot of weighted pull ups or just rowing movements for back…
good work my man, and nice stats.
loopfitt,
I think that is very interesting. I have tried this in the past but have not had the success with it that I have had with the program that I first posted.
I would like to point out a few errors in your analysis. First of all, I am not advocating training to failure. When you set up your percentage rep scheme it must allow you to complete each rep of each set without failure. Also, I do not feel that Three days per week of Chin-ups, or Pull-ups four weeks away from a contest adds any undue stress to the neural system. While everyone is different, I have not read any scientific data that claims three times per week training is bad for your neural system. In fact, Chad Waterbury, in his most recent article, states that four times per week training can be done!
I feel that the amount of intensity needed to raise your Chin-up total calls for a training effect that can come close to duplicating the event. The nervous system must be able to adapt specificaly to specific forms of stress. In this case I am referring to strength endurance.
Achieving maximum fber recruitment is an adaptive process of the nervous system to training stimli. In other words, if you want your body to respond on rep number 30 you must train higher reps!
I found your example while interesting to not be as applicable as you may think. While 10 sets of 3 reps with 200lbs. equals the same total poundage as 3 sets of 10 reps with 200lbs. I am afraid that the main point is lost. Which is, I am trying to prepare my body to respond on rep 30 just as it did on rep number 10, you can only really do this if you have been at least close to rep number 30.
If I were to Deadlift 200lbs. for 10 reps would that prepare me as well for a powerlifting competiton as Deadlifting 500lbs for 4 reps? They both equal 2000 pounds, but the appropriate training effect that one is after is found best by lifting the 500lbs for 4 reps, in this case.
I’m also glad you mentioned Paval. Russian kettleball guru Pavel Tsatsouline’s main point was to train every day. He advocated training Chins three times per day 5 or 6 days per week! One would think that this would overtrain the neural system. The reason that it did not seem to do this is that while he had his students training three times per day, they were performing only one set each time. And that set was not to failure. However, not unlike my program, but considerably different than what you suggest, the rep progression was steadily upward!
At the conclusion of a typical week Tsatsouline’s students were performing in the neighborhood of 15 to 18 sets. One particluar user of this system was well known body builder and fitness writer, Clarence Bass. Mr. Bass accomplished approximately 180 reps per week. His goal was to eventually achieve one set of 20 reps.
If you are attempting to get to a 20 rep set of Chins with my system in the final four weeks you are performing an average of 177 Chins per week for 15 total sets. Very close to paval, yet you only train three times per week which I feel gives the nervous system plenty of rest. Not to mention the one or two days sometimes needed to rest the tendons and muscles, and think about other things other than Chins!
In order to break up my yearly training routine I have trained with higher sets and lower reps and have not found them to be as effective as the program that I have eventually arrived at for adding reps to the bar.
However, I did find your method to be a bit easier. And while I did not gain any total reps while on it, I was not far off of my usual totals at the end of that particular program. Problem being I did not progress.
I have put forth this methodology because (as my disclaimer states in my first post), it works for me and many others that I have tested it on). I suggest that you give my routine a try and see how it compares to what you have been doing. You may find that your system is better for you, as we are all diffenet. Then again you may be pleasantly surprised and disvover a new way to add Chin-up reps!
Right Side Up,
You said it best: “fun.” After training with heavy weights it is a real switch to go with high rep chins. And unlike heavy weights which kind of push your joints toegether, Chin-ups and Pull-ups actually pull your joints apart. That makes it a nice change of pace. Make sense?
You are hanging from a bar, what could be better for the joints? There is no compression. that is yet one more reason to add Pull-ups and Chin-ups to your training regime!
Thanks for the kind words.
Zeb
Zeb,
I am not refuting your method at all. It has worked for you and others, but I was merely stating that there are other ways of reaching those goals, as Patricia had mentioned. I was trying to clarify her statement as to how a low rep/high set protocol will also work for this goal. I also never mentioned anything stating that you shouldn’t train as often. I totally am all for “greasing the groove”, which is why I prefer lower reps. This will lead to less build up of lactic acid and intra-muscular fluid. Higher reps will create greater soreness in the muscle because of the increase of LA and fluid, and the subsequent higher accretion of protein for recovery. Great for hypertrophy, but might make training frequency more problematic. The lower reps will keep the muscular system more prepared for frequent training.
That being said, I agree with you on all points including that training 3-4x per week using your method is not overdoing it.
Zeb, you mention the benefits of chinning and pull-ups. These are great lat developers but we musn’t forget the other back muscles to balance this out. I’m sure you understand this and I know you specialize for short periods to prepare for competition, and I’m sure you are balancing it out the rest of the year, but I would like to make a point for others who might be following this thread. Remember that, the lats are an internal rotator. Most people already have serious imbalance issues here, being predominantly anterior delt dominant which leads to the ape -like neanderthal look. No need to get into the short and long term health problems this creates. However, most people fail to understand that overworking the lats will make this problem worsen. So to all those reading who want to specialize in training their lats, also keep in mind that you’ll want to balance out that training with a good stretching program of the anterior delt and pec minor muscles. Along with this, add a good amount of work for the scapular retractors and plenty of external rotational exercises(those damn rotator cuff exercises we all love to do). To your health! Cheers.
Loopfit
I’ve got to go with ZEB on this one. Why I like his approach is that he’s been there and done it but also tried the other method of high volume spread over sets with lower reps. I too have tried this and while I made some progress it was very hard and I only got so far. I went from doing 12 reps to 15 reps but it took months and there I have been stuck for years! Intuitively it struck me there must be a better way. Sort of like the same realisation when you try lifting for strength with 5x5. You make progress but then you get stuck. So I going to give ZEB’s method a go to get to 20.
creed,
What is your body fat these days? I hope you don’t mind the question.
ZEB
Not good actually. Just come off a diet got to 9-10% but trying to bulk now so it will creep back up.
Great advice, Zeb! I prefer functional bodyweight exercises over machines personally, why stick yourself in a machine that simulates human movement when you can do the real thing and get better results. I plan on purchasing a doorway chinning bar to get back in it and go for 50 reps! When you say you do 30 reps, is that with a hanging pause at the bottom and top or do you just have to get your chin over the bar? Take care,
Pete
Creed,
At a body fat of 9% or 10% you will have no problem cranking out 20 reps, it’s just a matter of focus now. In fact, I think that for a person who trains Chins/Pulls consistently, over a period of time, body fat could even be in the 12% range and they could still nail 20 dead hang reps in a row!
Peteman,
50 reps huh? Well that would be a heck of an accomplishment! How many dead hang Chins can you do in a row right now?
In most of the competitions I have been in your chin has to either touch the bar or go over it. When you get to the bottom you come back up, there is no pause in competition as you are trying to get as many as possible.
Zeb, i’ll let u know as soon as i try the dead hangs… I got up to 28 max chins before, but i’ve always done them after bent rows or deads. I figure if i aim high with my goals i’m bound to improve more than if i aimed for, say, 5 more. I’ve never focussed on chins before so i think its possible- you are an inspiration! Take care,
Pete
other than competitive purposes, what benefits do high rep chins/pullups have in regards to looking good nekkid?
P-DOG,
Great question! According to my wife, there is nothing more pleasing to a women than that “V look.” What exercise, more than any other can give you that look? You guessed it-Pull-ups and Chin-ups, as they directly work the Lats.
As far as other benefits of high rep Pull-ups/Chin-ups are concerned, there is a mild cardio effect. There is no way to crank out large numbers of reps on that bar without involving your heart and lungs. Those attempting to cut fat and add muscle would be wise to move into a high rep Chin/Pull program.
Most people seem to think that bulging biceps, and forearms are attractive. There is no finer exercise than Chin-ups to produce a set of great looking Biceps! I never do any sort of Barbell or Dumbbell curling movements and my arms measure over 17" at a body weight of 188lbs. If you don’t think that high rep Chin-ups will also help build good sized forearms try hanging from that bar for long periods of time! (as a side note I have also closed the #2 gripper 6 times in a row).
Finally, when you are hanging from the Pull-up bar cranking out rep after rep you are also building your ab muscles as there is a bend in your knees (as stated in my first post). The next day after a session of high rep Chins you will feel a surprising soreness in your mid-section. As we all know attractive abs are largely a function of diet. However, I train abs directly only once per week, and have done so for years, yet my abs are ripped because of my practice with high rep Chins!
Not meaning to brag about my own development, but I can personally testify to the absolute superiority of Chin-ups and Pull-ups as a way to “look good naked.” High rep chin-ups and Pull-ups will definitely help you “look good naked.” 1. The “V” look. 2. An aid to cutting body fat. 3. Secondary exercise for your abs. 4. Bicep and forearm development.
How many more reasons do you need to begin your program today?
DUDE!!!Im dying for that push up program!!! I wanna be the Prince of Push ups!!
How many reps of pushups did the winner of the contest do?
“1. The “V” look. 2. An aid to cutting body fat. 3. Secondary exercise for your abs. 4. Bicep and forearm development.”
i guess what im getting at is why is this type of training more beneficial than my typical routine which will involve less reps but more resistance?
P-DOG,
I think that you will develope great biceps and Lats working either high or low reps. The abs get more of a workout training higher reps. Also, your cardio is teaked more with higher reps.
Honestly, whether you do higher or lower reps (with weight), matters not in the long run. You ultimately have to train with a program that fits you!
pete,
I was in a contest once where the Push-up winner did 107 in :60! I finished second that day with 89 in :60.
I have found that Push-up contests are usually timed events. One to three minutes usually.