This is what I’m talking about…
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Damn it H, you’re coming dangerously close to changing a stance on PWI…
It might break the internet. [/quote]
Forget the internet, I think it might break the whole universe![/quote]
Quick, we need usmc to compare me to Hitler or for me to compare him to Hitler.
Uhmm, Hitler killed people therefore usmc is basically Hitler so I’m right and you’re wrong you Holocaust promoter!
Shit we may have just saved it. That was too close. [/quote]
God you are such a racist…
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I would have no problem if we had someone who we undeniably saw on video do something and it was clear enough that no one could possibly think it was not this person. I would rather just scrap the death penalty and have everyone sit in jail because it’s quite the risk currently in some states.
For all these people who are innocent who got off we need to keep in mind they WERE convicted by our justice system and they had to gain their freedom by proving themselves innocent. That sentence right there is easily enough for me to believe I’m on the correct side of this one. [/quote]
Here is my take on a more philosophical level. A murderer has ended their victims ability to feel. They will never again feel happy, loved, etc… To me, letting that murderer breathe one more second is a slap in the face of the victim and the victims family. Even in prison they can feel happiness, love, etc… How is that “fair” in the vast majority of cases where the person convicted committed the crime. That to me is why it’s a gray area.
[/quote]
I don’t disagree with your assessment of the murderer ending that persons ability to feel. However the answer is not let’s have the government kill people and hope they are right because we want to make sure the families feel good about it.
Life in prison or dead is irrelevant. Nothing brings back a murdered family member. Nothing lets them “feel” again. No punishment erases that fact. Knowing that let’s not have the government gamble on getting it right through our justice system and if they get it wrong and we kill an innocent person well hey it’s pretty rare.
I see both sides on abortion. I do not see both sides on this. I think it’s obviously not worth the risk when we know we have made numerous mistakes throughout our history in convictions.
Just my opinion of course. [/quote]
I’m broadening the topic here, but couldn’t this apply to a lot of things. War comes to mind. Innocent people die in war, it’s an ugly truth and it’s true of every conflict. We didn’t defeat the Japanese or Hitler without innocents dying and we didn’t take Fellujah without innocents dying either.
So do we not go to war, ever, because the risk is too high that innocents might die?[/quote]
Of course it could apply to a lot of things. In war we KNOW innocent people will die and that is the unfortunate and uncontrollable instance of wars throughout history. We CAN control this. We can make sure we don’t kill innocent people via a flawed system by not having the death penalty. [/quote]
We could control innocent death in war too, by not going. I mean that’s essentially what you’re saying. Innocents might die if convicted of murder so we shouldn’t use the death penalty. Innocents might die in war so we shouldn’t do it, right? [/quote]
I think the difference is what are we trying to accomplish with a war vs death penalty.
What are you really accomplishing with death penalty?
-
Preventing that person from harming again? Being in jail for the rest of their life handles this in most cases.
-
Save money? Whats the $ amount your putting on them to justify this?
-
Make victims families feel better? Aren’t liberals the ones who make political decisions based on feelings?
-
Prevent others from doing the same crime? History has shown this to be useless.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Damn it H, you’re coming dangerously close to changing a stance on PWI…
It might break the internet. [/quote]
Forget the internet, I think it might break the whole universe![/quote]
Quick, we need usmc to compare me to Hitler or for me to compare him to Hitler.
Uhmm, Hitler killed people therefore usmc is basically Hitler so I’m right and you’re wrong you Holocaust promoter!
Shit we may have just saved it. That was too close. [/quote]
God you are such a racist…[/quote]
Lol. Well played…
Sharia law loving Muslim.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Damn it H, you’re coming dangerously close to changing a stance on PWI…
It might break the internet. [/quote]
Forget the internet, I think it might break the whole universe![/quote]
Quick, we need usmc to compare me to Hitler or for me to compare him to Hitler.
Uhmm, Hitler killed people therefore usmc is basically Hitler so I’m right and you’re wrong you Holocaust promoter!
Shit we may have just saved it. That was too close. [/quote]
God you are such a racist…[/quote]
Lol. Well played…
Sharia law loving Muslim. [/quote]
At least I didn’t vote for Obama, twice
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Damn it H, you’re coming dangerously close to changing a stance on PWI…
It might break the internet. [/quote]
Forget the internet, I think it might break the whole universe![/quote]
Quick, we need usmc to compare me to Hitler or for me to compare him to Hitler.
Uhmm, Hitler killed people therefore usmc is basically Hitler so I’m right and you’re wrong you Holocaust promoter!
Shit we may have just saved it. That was too close. [/quote]
God you are such a racist…[/quote]
Lol. Well played…
Sharia law loving Muslim. [/quote]
At least I didn’t vote for Obama, twice
[/quote]
Actually, H voted for him six times.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
I think the difference is what are we trying to accomplish with a war vs death penalty.
What are you really accomplishing with death penalty?
-
Preventing that person from harming again? Being in jail for the rest of their life handles this in most cases.
-
Save money? Whats the $ amount your putting on them to justify this?
-
Make victims families feel better? Aren’t liberals the ones who make political decisions based on feelings?
-
Prevent others from doing the same crime? History has shown this to be useless.[/quote]
Well Done!
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Damn it H, you’re coming dangerously close to changing a stance on PWI…
It might break the internet. [/quote]
Forget the internet, I think it might break the whole universe![/quote]
Quick, we need usmc to compare me to Hitler or for me to compare him to Hitler.
Uhmm, Hitler killed people therefore usmc is basically Hitler so I’m right and you’re wrong you Holocaust promoter!
Shit we may have just saved it. That was too close. [/quote]
God you are such a racist…[/quote]
Lol. Well played…
Sharia law loving Muslim. [/quote]
At least I didn’t vote for Obama, twice
[/quote]
Actually, H voted for him six times.[/quote]
I bet he did, damn liberal.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
I think the difference is what are we trying to accomplish with a war vs death penalty.
What are you really accomplishing with death penalty?
-
Preventing that person from harming again? Being in jail for the rest of their life handles this in most cases.
-
Save money? Whats the $ amount your putting on them to justify this?
-
Make victims families feel better? Aren’t liberals the ones who make political decisions based on feelings?
-
Prevent others from doing the same crime? History has shown this to be useless.[/quote]
Well Done! [/quote]
I wouldn’t go that far
1.) He/she can harm again. He can harm other inmates and guards. He can also escape and in many cases get parole.
2.) I thought everything was about money on this forum…
3.) And conservatives only make choices based on money, so I guess we’re back to #2. (I can generalize too)
4.) You really think punishment doesn’t deter crime at all?
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Damn it H, you’re coming dangerously close to changing a stance on PWI…
It might break the internet. [/quote]
Forget the internet, I think it might break the whole universe![/quote]
Quick, we need usmc to compare me to Hitler or for me to compare him to Hitler.
Uhmm, Hitler killed people therefore usmc is basically Hitler so I’m right and you’re wrong you Holocaust promoter!
Shit we may have just saved it. That was too close. [/quote]
God you are such a racist…[/quote]
Lol. Well played…
Sharia law loving Muslim. [/quote]
At least I didn’t vote for Obama, twice
[/quote]
Actually, H voted for him six times.[/quote]
I’m not even from Ohio and I can tell you I’m the reason he won there. You guys know how easy it is for a guy in Kansas to vote for Obama multiple times in Cincy? 
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Damn it H, you’re coming dangerously close to changing a stance on PWI…
It might break the internet. [/quote]
Forget the internet, I think it might break the whole universe![/quote]
Quick, we need usmc to compare me to Hitler or for me to compare him to Hitler.
Uhmm, Hitler killed people therefore usmc is basically Hitler so I’m right and you’re wrong you Holocaust promoter!
Shit we may have just saved it. That was too close. [/quote]
God you are such a racist…[/quote]
Lol. Well played…
Sharia law loving Muslim. [/quote]
At least I didn’t vote for Obama, twice
[/quote]
Actually, H voted for him six times.[/quote]
I’m not even from Ohio and I can tell you I’m the reason he won there. You guys know how easy it is for a guy in Kansas to vote for Obama multiple times in Cincy? :)[/quote]
I believe it was Eric Cartman that rigged the last election…
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
I think the difference is what are we trying to accomplish with a war vs death penalty.
What are you really accomplishing with death penalty?
-
Preventing that person from harming again? Being in jail for the rest of their life handles this in most cases.
-
Save money? Whats the $ amount your putting on them to justify this?
-
Make victims families feel better? Aren’t liberals the ones who make political decisions based on feelings?
-
Prevent others from doing the same crime? History has shown this to be useless.[/quote]
Well Done! [/quote]
I wouldn’t go that far
1.) He/she can harm again. He can harm other inmates and guards. He can also escape and in many cases get parole.
2.) I thought everything was about money on this forum…
3.) And conservatives only make choices based on money, so I guess we’re back to #2. (I can generalize too)
4.) You really think punishment doesn’t deter crime at all?[/quote]
-
No solution for this until we close all prisons. How often do escapes really happen? Is it even more than the number of wrongly convicted people? I’m sure you will have better luck making parole harder for these types of people than death penalty so maybe focus efforts on that if its a concern.
-
So whats the $ amount?
A. Life in prison
B. First 10 years or so, legal fees to fight death penalty, costs related directly to carrying out death penalty.
So you have the price of A minus B. That difference needs to be large enough to justify.
- Certain types of crime yes, not so much the ones we are talking about here.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
I think the difference is what are we trying to accomplish with a war vs death penalty.
What are you really accomplishing with death penalty?
-
Preventing that person from harming again? Being in jail for the rest of their life handles this in most cases.
-
Save money? Whats the $ amount your putting on them to justify this?
-
Make victims families feel better? Aren’t liberals the ones who make political decisions based on feelings?
-
Prevent others from doing the same crime? History has shown this to be useless.[/quote]
Well Done! [/quote]
I wouldn’t go that far
1.) He/she can harm again. He can harm other inmates and guards. He can also escape and in many cases get parole.
2.) I thought everything was about money on this forum…
3.) And conservatives only make choices based on money, so I guess we’re back to #2. (I can generalize too)
4.) You really think punishment doesn’t deter crime at all?[/quote]
-
No solution for this until we close all prisons. How often do escapes really happen? Is it even more than the number of wrongly convicted people? I’m sure you will have better luck making parole harder for these types of people than death penalty so maybe focus efforts on that if its a concern.
-
So whats the $ amount?
A. Life in prison
B. First 10 years or so, legal fees to fight death penalty, costs related directly to carrying out death penalty.
So you have the price of A minus B. That difference needs to be large enough to justify.
- Certain types of crime yes, not so much the ones we are talking about here.[/quote]
1.). Okay, so they can still harm while in prison then…
2.) It will be individual for both total cost and what is justifiable. Logic says 3 hots and a cot for 40+ years will cost more than the alternative, although, I do not know how much the actual execution costs.
4.) I disagree. I think life in prison/death deters some would be murderers.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t see why the death penalty can’t be used when either DNA or video evidence exists of the act being committed. I also don’t see how life in prison is anything other than a very long death sentence and you could argue lethal injection is much more humane than life in prison. I also think, especially today, the likelihood of someone being wrongfully put to death is pretty small. [/quote]
My experiences with the criminal justice system convince me that there is too much careerism among prosecutors as well as law enforcement. LEOs and prosecutors are evaluated by their arrest/charge and conviction rates. The leading cause of wrongful conviction in the US is prosecutorial malfeasance, i.e., they lie, suppress evidence and what not to get a conviction. Prosecutors are not subject to the law for this and are left to police themselves which usually means virtually nothing happens. Seriously. Look, the US has 10 times the number of people in prison per capita compared to every other developed country. This means that elsewhere, 90% of US convictions would be considered wrongful. Let that sink in. The CJ system was almost completely gutted by the War on Drugs and I am sorry but while I have no trouble killing you in your tracks if you give me cause to, the state has shown itself to be almost completely incapable of getting it right. OK?
Do not make the naive mistake of assuming that the CJ system is trying to get it right. Right and Wrong are not operative concepts, the question is whether there is some law that they can argue, however obliquely that lets them win.
This discussion, as ever, is not what we would do if we get it right in a perfect world, but what happens when it is wrongfully and wilfully applied to you. I have seen LEOs in action and know that they brag about manufacturing evidence to get some scumbag locked up forever. If one decides s/he doesn’t like you, what then? Look at the Duke Lacrosse Team case (Duke lacrosse case - Wikipedia) to see what you are up against. All the DNA testing in the world won’t ensure accuracy if the prosecutor is fudging the results since he wants to win the next election. Got it? There are few if any checks and balances in play anymore.
As always, I’m probably just full of shit…
– jj
Casting my vote on the nay side.
[quote]H factor wrote:
I agree about the putting a rabid dog down…it’s just we are talking about humans. And right now we can’t prove with 100% certainty that these humans are rabid dogs therefore why risk it? [/quote]
H, what do you think about the death penalty for people who have incontrovertibly committed multiple murders?
Like convicted of one or two, then committing a couple more while locked up? Essentially people who have demonstrated a 100% chance of recidivism, or through some pathology have done multiples like John Wayne Gacey, having like 29 of 33 of his victims buried in his basement.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I agree about the putting a rabid dog down…it’s just we are talking about humans. And right now we can’t prove with 100% certainty that these humans are rabid dogs therefore why risk it? [/quote]
H, what do you think about the death penalty for people who have incontrovertibly committed multiple murders?
Like convicted of one or two, then committing a couple more while locked up? Essentially people who have demonstrated a 100% chance of recidivism, or through some pathology have done multiples like John Wayne Gacey, having like 29 of 33 of his victims buried in his basement.
[/quote]
In those cases with undeniable proof fuck em. Do whatever you want.
Make no mistake I am not about ignoring the death penalty because I think murderers deserve some type of second chance. I am purely against it from the logical standpoint that not everyone we convict is guilty and the worst thing a state can do is take the life of an innocent person for a crime they did not commit.
I think it is about the worst thing a government can do.
I have read that it is on average more expensive by a considerable margin to execute someone than to put them in prison for life without parole. Does anyone know this to be true or false? I haven’t looked into it, and you know how “facts” can be.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
I have read that it is on average more expensive by a considerable margin to execute someone than to put them in prison for life without parole. Does anyone know this to be true or false? I haven’t looked into it, and you know how “facts” can be.[/quote]
With that, they are factoring in the legal costs of the mandatory appeals that the death penalty cases generate. It’s not the costs of the actual procedure of killing the dude, it’s the legal costs…
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
I have read that it is on average more expensive by a considerable margin to execute someone than to put them in prison for life without parole. Does anyone know this to be true or false? I haven’t looked into it, and you know how “facts” can be.[/quote]
Looks like you might be right…but I don’t have first hand knowledge of the costs. Of course, we could just start killing people quicker.