I don’t think cost should be a factor in the decision. If executing someone is cheaper than life in prison then aborting an unwanted child is cheaper than supporting them for 18 years (or most likely more).
Pen and Teller give a good argument against the Death penalty.
I myself find the Death penalty too be barbaric and out of Place in a society that claims to be a modern, democratic and good society.
If there is evil Things, the Death penalty belongs on the list of such Things.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
I have read that it is on average more expensive by a considerable margin to execute someone than to put them in prison for life without parole. Does anyone know this to be true or false? I haven’t looked into it, and you know how “facts” can be.[/quote]
With that, they are factoring in the legal costs of the mandatory appeals that the death penalty cases generate. It’s not the costs of the actual procedure of killing the dude, it’s the legal costs…[/quote]
Yeah I’m aware of that–the cocktail would be made of gold and diamonds otherwise–but those costs are still a part of the process.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I agree about the putting a rabid dog down…it’s just we are talking about humans. And right now we can’t prove with 100% certainty that these humans are rabid dogs therefore why risk it? [/quote]
H, what do you think about the death penalty for people who have incontrovertibly committed multiple murders?
Like convicted of one or two, then committing a couple more while locked up? Essentially people who have demonstrated a 100% chance of recidivism, or through some pathology have done multiples like John Wayne Gacey, having like 29 of 33 of his victims buried in his basement.
[/quote]
In those cases with undeniable proof fuck em. Do whatever you want.
Make no mistake I am not about ignoring the death penalty because I think murderers deserve some type of second chance. I am purely against it from the logical standpoint that not everyone we convict is guilty and the worst thing a state can do is take the life of an innocent person for a crime they did not commit.
I think it is about the worst thing a government can do. [/quote]
So let me give you all a scenario.
Scenario: 14 year old white girl is beaten and strangled not too far from where you live. This is important, because the marketability of the victim to the press is often the motivating factor (there was a serial rapist at large for a couple of years down South who didn’t make the news once because he targeted young Black girls. Yes the press really does treat stories as marketing opportunities.)
So the cops talk to all the neighbors, including you. You were watching a football game with one of your best buddies all evening. A few days later, the SWAT team, about 30 of them kick your door in and drag you off. They cuff you and your family face down in the living room and ransack the house. You are charged with the murder, rape and about a dozen other felonies related to the crime. They are actively seeking the death penalty.
Why did they do this? Because a little old lady who lives down the block affably chatted with the officers. They asked her if she saw anyone about that time. “Why I think I saw X”. Now she doesn’t really know you and all she knows for sure is that someone about your height was there. Maybe. The issue though is that she is what is called an “unimpeachable witness” meaning that since she is unrelated to the case, her testimony is nearly unassailable. When she talked to the DA, she started to protest that she wasn’t 100% sure. The response? “Perjury is punishable by up to 5 years in prison.” Retracting a statement wouldn’t normally be considered perjury, but he omitted this fact. Oops. So the little old lady is now rightly terrified she is going to prison if she says she was wrong. The DA now has a witness that points to you and she’s not changing her story.
As for your friend, the cops listen for a bit then threaten to charge him as an accessory if he persists in claiming you two were together. After all, they have a witness so he must be lying. Being an accessory, they will tell him, means he is going to get whatever you get. He shuts up in a big hurry because he has a wife and a couple of kids. Besides they’ll tell him, if you are really innocent you are sure to get off, so what does his statement matter? (This is called “climbing the ladder” in law enforcement circles.)
This is your legal system at work. The War on Drugs was actually a War on Civil Liberties. Maybe such treatment of some Columbian drug lord would warrant this, but it is now applied to everyone. In a nutshell, the worst possible case anyone has met is now assumed to be the case for everyone. That even with our ridiculous incarceration rate, 99% of the people in this country are not even remotely criminals is lost.
Since the victim pulls on all sorts of heart strings the press is having a field day. DNA testing isn’t going to tell them much. Inconclusive means damnation at this point. The DA, who is up for re-election can now go to the press with the lurid details and explain how they really caught the bad guy – look at all those charges. To the general public, charges = conviction. Innocent until proven guilty is no longer a part of the American judicial system. He also produces and impressively thick folder that is the evidence. Lots and lots of free publicity for his re-election.
Your lawyer tells you to plea bargain cause he has nothing in the case. Your word against theirs does nothing even if their case is circumstantial. After he wins the election, the DA offers that if you confess to a few lesser felonies (got to keep that conviction rate up so his stats keep looking good) and sit in prison for 5 years, he’d be ok with that. Don’t worry, the press will have a field day with this too and tell how a real criminal (you) gamed the system and got off light. There will be calls across the board for stricter laws and more draconian punishments. It’s an outrage!
By this point your life is ruined. You lost your job almost immediately, whatever family you have has had their names published in the papers and have been publicly damned (you did the chivalrous thing of telling them to distance themselves from you). Your kids had to switch schools because they are getting threatened or beaten up on a regular basis. Any attempt to say you couldn’t have done it will be portrayed as a bereaved family that is in denial and out of touch. Of course they didn’t see it coming – they never do, do they? Portraying them as pathetic and betrayed sure sells well. Part of your plea bargain will be to list you as a registered sex offender, given the age of the victim. If that is part of the plea bargain, you accept that. As an ex-con you can kiss goodbye having a job doing more than scrubbing toilets, if that. Bottom line: Because you got into the CJS you will probably never get out of it. Ever. Your wife and kids will be long gone and strangers when you get out.
Question for you: Do you take the deal, or have a jury trial that might put you away for the rest of your life? Your lawyer will tell you that a jury trial will have the DA drag out heart warming pictures of the victim telling them what a wonderful person she was. (Doesn’t matter if she was or if it was a drug deal gone wrong, btw.) Then pull out gory, horrifying pictures that will haunt them of her death. These will be in their minds as they are trying to make their decision. The fact that there have been a couple more very similar murders while you’ve been sitting in county lockup ($500,000 bail keeps you there) is attributed to copycat crimes. You want to claim the police botched it? Fine this means you tell this same DA to file charges against the state. Since only the state can file criminal charges, you in essence have to ask it to sue itself. You can see how far that is going to go.
At this point, do you have any faith at all the CJS is even remotely trying to get it right? This is taken from a few cases but not that far off the mark from any of them. If the police “know” you did it, count on this treatment.
Probably full of shit as always,
– jj
Someone has been reading too many John Grisham novels…
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
Someone has been reading too many John Grisham novels…[/quote]
Not really. A friend went though about half of this recently. The rest was taken from cases his lawyer had handled that were related to me. The friend took the plea bargain and is on probation for a couple of years.
Full of shit as always…
– jj
PS. I almost never read fiction either.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
Someone has been reading too many John Grisham novels…[/quote]
Situations like that are more common than most believe.
Actually not far fetched at all JJ. Our justice system has never been amazing and will always have many flaws. We put people who did not do something behind bars at times. We have people who aren’t criminals take plea deals in case they can’t PROVE their innocence. The more talented the prosecuting lawyer the more likely these things happen.
Which again, is the sole reason I’m against the death penalty. It’s not some morality thing, it’s purely from understanding our human based criminal justice system will have human based errors. Therefore don’t have state and federal governments kill people who they are pretty sure did it.
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
My experiences with the criminal justice system convince me that there is too much careerism among prosecutors as well as law enforcement. LEOs and prosecutors are evaluated by their arrest/charge and conviction rates. The leading cause of wrongful conviction in the US is prosecutorial malfeasance, i.e., they lie, suppress evidence and what not to get a conviction. Prosecutors are not subject to the law for this and are left to police themselves which usually means virtually nothing happens.
Do not make the naive mistake of assuming that the CJ system is trying to get it right. Right and Wrong are not operative concepts,…
This discussion, as ever, is not what we would do if we get it right in a perfect world, but what happens when it is wrongfully and wilfully applied to you.
There are few if any checks and balances in play anymore.
[/quote]
These are the consequences of a ‘System’ becoming an ‘Industry’. This is ground zero when discussing the moral decline in our country.
When leadership and authority abandon the moral high ground for convenience and profit; everbody suffers.
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
I have seen LEOs in action and know that they brag about manufacturing evidence to get some scumbag locked up forever.
– jj [/quote]
What were you actions upon learning this?
[quote]WN76 wrote:
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
I have seen LEOs in action and know that they brag about manufacturing evidence to get some scumbag locked up forever.
– jj [/quote]
What were you actions upon learning this? [/quote]
Obviously not say we need to bring back firing squads 
And the irony is, most people that complain about our justice system, favor the same government for the solutions for every other societal problem.
Lack of health insurance? More government using our taxes
Lack of jobs? More government solutions using our taxes
Poor performing schools? See above
Etc.
etc.
etc.
Sure, our justice system is not perfect. If there is a country with a better model, please point it out.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
And the irony is, most people that complain about our justice system, favor the same government for the solutions for every other societal problem. Sure, our justice system is not perfect. If there is a country with a better model, please point it out.
[/quote]
This is not necessary to argue against the death penalty in the manner some of us have argued. What other countries do and what we do is irrelevant to the discussion on whether or not our state governments should execute people.
Sure. Just going off the other tangent.
[quote]WN76 wrote:
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
I have seen LEOs in action and know that they brag about manufacturing evidence to get some scumbag locked up forever.
– jj [/quote]
What were you actions upon learning this? [/quote]
“Blink blink Oh really?” The case was an officer who stopped someone they knew was a bad person. He was on parole (drug possession which gets a minimum sentence of 5 years). The officer in question took his license, destroyed it in front of him and arrested him on driving without a license. This revoked the guy’s parole and put him back in prison for quite a few months. No trial or hearing was needed. Of course the guy protested and that went no where. Since it had happened a few years before, what could I do but file it away under the heading of “this is what a cop can do if he feels like it”? And yes this was the officer who did it that told me the tale. He didn’t like the guy since he’d had some run-ins with him before his conviction (not as a LEO) so figured he was doing a public service.
– jj
Edit: I should point out that he related other stories that were much more severe that he had heard of.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
And the irony is, most people that complain about our justice system, favor the same government for the solutions for every other societal problem.
Lack of health insurance? More government using our taxes
Lack of jobs? More government solutions using our taxes
Poor performing schools? See above
Etc.
etc.
etc.
Sure, our justice system is not perfect. If there is a country with a better model, please point it out.
[/quote]
I’ve always seen it the other way around…people that always complain about how corrupt and incompetent the government is are fine with allowing it to decide when someone needs a killin’.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
And the irony is, most people that complain about our justice system, favor the same government for the solutions for every other societal problem.
Lack of health insurance? More government using our taxes
Lack of jobs? More government solutions using our taxes
Poor performing schools? See above
Etc.
etc.
etc.
Sure, our justice system is not perfect. If there is a country with a better model, please point it out.
[/quote]
I’ve always seen it the other way around…people that always complain about how corrupt and incompetent the government is are fine with allowing it to decide when someone needs a killin’.
[/quote]
It’s not really the government deciding that though. It’s a jury that convicts. Yes, ultimately the judge determines the punishment, but not until regular ol Americans convict.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
And the irony is, most people that complain about our justice system, favor the same government for the solutions for every other societal problem.
Lack of health insurance? More government using our taxes
Lack of jobs? More government solutions using our taxes
Poor performing schools? See above
Etc.
etc.
etc.
Sure, our justice system is not perfect. If there is a country with a better model, please point it out.
[/quote]
I’ve always seen it the other way around…people that always complain about how corrupt and incompetent the government is are fine with allowing it to decide when someone needs a killin’.
[/quote]
It’s not really the government deciding that though. It’s a jury that convicts. Yes, ultimately the judge determines the punishment, but not until regular ol Americans convict. [/quote]
I think this is a bit like defending government programs because it isn’t the government that does them but the people that elect the people to work in the government.
The government SYSTEM kills people. Yes jurors are made up of Americans, but it is part of our system that is flawed because of its human nature. Just as something like welfare is flawed to an extent simply because it is carried about by humans.
I guess that’s how I see it.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
It’s not really the government deciding that though. It’s a jury that convicts. Yes, ultimately the judge determines the punishment, but not until regular ol Americans convict. [/quote]
Not actually. My lawyer friend told me that probably less than 10% of cases make it to court. Most are settled as plea bargains because juries are so unpredictable that nobody including the prosecution wants to deal with them. This is one of the major reasons IMHO, that there are so many wrongful convictions in the American system. This also encourages prosecutors to vastly overcharge since they are thinking not in terms of winning those charges, but using them as part of later negotiations. They want to put you in a position that running the risk of a jury trial is sheer folly and by and large, they are very good at it.
– jj
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
And the irony is, most people that complain about our justice system, favor the same government for the solutions for every other societal problem.
Lack of health insurance? More government using our taxes
Lack of jobs? More government solutions using our taxes
Poor performing schools? See above
Etc.
etc.
etc.
Sure, our justice system is not perfect. If there is a country with a better model, please point it out.
[/quote]
I’ve always seen it the other way around…people that always complain about how corrupt and incompetent the government is are fine with allowing it to decide when someone needs a killin’.
[/quote]
It’s not really the government deciding that though. It’s a jury that convicts. Yes, ultimately the judge determines the punishment, but not until regular ol Americans convict. [/quote]
I think this is a bit like defending government programs because it isn’t the government that does them but the people that elect the people to work in the government.
The government SYSTEM kills people. Yes jurors are made up of Americans, but it is part of our system that is flawed because of its human nature. Just as something like welfare is flawed to an extent simply because it is carried about by humans.
I guess that’s how I see it. [/quote]
I’m not saying the system isn’t flawed (nor humans), but I am saying no matter how shitty a LEO may act a jury (outside the system) still has to unanimously convict for the death penalty in all the states that still have it (as far as I know).