H,
What I’m also not following is, how can you be okay with allowing abortions in certain circumstances (ie health/rape) when it’s entirely possible just 1 single one of those babies created through a rape was actually created consensual? Or what about a mothers who has an abortion for health reasons, but it turns out the Dr was wrong or she would have lived through birth? Isn’t that counter to you stance here, if just 1 innocent is put to death than no one should be put to death.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
People are wrongfully convicted of other crimes should we not imprison anyone?
[/quote]
Wrongful imprisonment is correctable, wrongful execution, not so much.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
H,
What I’m also not following is, how can you be okay with allowing abortions in certain circumstances (ie health/rape) when it’s entirely possible just 1 single one of those babies created through a rape was actually created consensual? Or what about a mothers who has an abortion for health reasons, but it turns out the Dr was wrong or she would have lived through birth? Isn’t that counter to you stance here, if just 1 innocent is put to death than no one should be put to death.[/quote]
Because I don’t view them as similar issues at all. Again this is KNOWING a flawed justice system is wrong plenty of times. What you are talking about are hypothetical scenarios like “well what if the woman wasn’t actually raped” or what if the dr. was wrong this one time? I dunno…what if?
Those scenarios while plausible perhaps are completely made up. I’m not making the following up:
Our justice system has a HISTORY of getting it wrong throughout it’s inception. It’s a good system, but nowhere near a system that we can say gets it right all the time. In fact we can PROVE it doesn’t get it right many times.
Now, knowing that how could we possibly think the government should use this system to kill people?
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I would have no problem if we had someone who we undeniably saw on video do something and it was clear enough that no one could possibly think it was not this person. I would rather just scrap the death penalty and have everyone sit in jail because it’s quite the risk currently in some states.
For all these people who are innocent who got off we need to keep in mind they WERE convicted by our justice system and they had to gain their freedom by proving themselves innocent. That sentence right there is easily enough for me to believe I’m on the correct side of this one. [/quote]
Here is my take on a more philosophical level. A murderer has ended their victims ability to feel. They will never again feel happy, loved, etc… To me, letting that murderer breathe one more second is a slap in the face of the victim and the victims family. Even in prison they can feel happiness, love, etc… How is that “fair” in the vast majority of cases where the person convicted committed the crime. That to me is why it’s a gray area.
[/quote]
I don’t disagree with your assessment of the murderer ending that persons ability to feel. However the answer is not let’s have the government kill people and hope they are right because we want to make sure the families feel good about it.
Life in prison or dead is irrelevant. Nothing brings back a murdered family member. Nothing lets them “feel” again. No punishment erases that fact. Knowing that let’s not have the government gamble on getting it right through our justice system and if they get it wrong and we kill an innocent person well hey it’s pretty rare.
I see both sides on abortion. I do not see both sides on this. I think it’s obviously not worth the risk when we know we have made numerous mistakes throughout our history in convictions.
Just my opinion of course. [/quote]
I’m broadening the topic here, but couldn’t this apply to a lot of things. War comes to mind. Innocent people die in war, it’s an ugly truth and it’s true of every conflict. We didn’t defeat the Japanese or Hitler without innocents dying and we didn’t take Fellujah without innocents dying either.
So do we not go to war, ever, because the risk is too high that innocents might die?
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
People are wrongfully convicted of other crimes should we not imprison anyone?
[/quote]
Wrongful imprisonment is correctable, wrongful execution, not so much.[/quote]
If it’s caught.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
It’s not like it just doesn’t happen often though, it is extremely rare for a person convicted of murder t o be found innocent. I can’t find any stats to the contrary, maybe you can?
[/quote]
http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/
[/quote]
312 in 21 years in pretty rare isn’t it?[/quote]
Only if it is not you or your loved ones. How many did they miss?
[/quote]
114 people were added to death row in 2010, how many of the victim’s families do you think miss their loved one?
[/quote]
All of them. How will killing any of those people make them miss them any less? Particularly if they later find out an innocent person was killed to avenge their loved ones murder.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I would have no problem if we had someone who we undeniably saw on video do something and it was clear enough that no one could possibly think it was not this person. I would rather just scrap the death penalty and have everyone sit in jail because it’s quite the risk currently in some states.
For all these people who are innocent who got off we need to keep in mind they WERE convicted by our justice system and they had to gain their freedom by proving themselves innocent. That sentence right there is easily enough for me to believe I’m on the correct side of this one. [/quote]
Here is my take on a more philosophical level. A murderer has ended their victims ability to feel. They will never again feel happy, loved, etc… To me, letting that murderer breathe one more second is a slap in the face of the victim and the victims family. Even in prison they can feel happiness, love, etc… How is that “fair” in the vast majority of cases where the person convicted committed the crime. That to me is why it’s a gray area.
[/quote]
I don’t disagree with your assessment of the murderer ending that persons ability to feel. However the answer is not let’s have the government kill people and hope they are right because we want to make sure the families feel good about it.
Life in prison or dead is irrelevant. Nothing brings back a murdered family member. Nothing lets them “feel” again. No punishment erases that fact. Knowing that let’s not have the government gamble on getting it right through our justice system and if they get it wrong and we kill an innocent person well hey it’s pretty rare.
I see both sides on abortion. I do not see both sides on this. I think it’s obviously not worth the risk when we know we have made numerous mistakes throughout our history in convictions.
Just my opinion of course. [/quote]
I’m broadening the topic here, but couldn’t this apply to a lot of things. War comes to mind. Innocent people die in war, it’s an ugly truth and it’s true of every conflict. We didn’t defeat the Japanese or Hitler without innocents dying and we didn’t take Fellujah without innocents dying either.
So do we not go to war, ever, because the risk is too high that innocents might die?[/quote]
Of course it could apply to a lot of things. In war we KNOW innocent people will die and that is the unfortunate and uncontrollable instance of wars throughout history. We CAN control this. We can make sure we don’t kill innocent people via a flawed system by not having the death penalty.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
H,
What I’m also not following is, how can you be okay with allowing abortions in certain circumstances (ie health/rape) when it’s entirely possible just 1 single one of those babies created through a rape was actually created consensual? Or what about a mothers who has an abortion for health reasons, but it turns out the Dr was wrong or she would have lived through birth? Isn’t that counter to you stance here, if just 1 innocent is put to death than no one should be put to death.[/quote]
Because I don’t view them as similar issues at all. Again this is KNOWING a flawed justice system is wrong plenty of times. What you are talking about are hypothetical scenarios like “well what if the woman wasn’t actually raped” or what if the dr. was wrong this one time? I dunno…what if?
Those scenarios while plausible perhaps are completely made up. I’m not making the following up:
Our justice system has a HISTORY of getting it wrong throughout it’s inception. It’s a good system, but nowhere near a system that we can say gets it right all the time. In fact we can PROVE it doesn’t get it right many times.
Now, knowing that how could we possibly think the government should use this system to kill people? [/quote]
They aren’t really hypothetical. We know woman have lied about rape (Duke Lacrosse team) and we know doctors are wrong quite often.
Look, I see your point. I’m being nit picky at this point. I still think with enough evidence we should put what amounts to a rabid dog down.
No innocent should be put to death, in any circumstance, but it happens. Two innocents were just gunned down at a mall I frequent quite a bit near here just a week or so ago. It’s an ugly part of life.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
It’s not like it just doesn’t happen often though, it is extremely rare for a person convicted of murder t o be found innocent. I can’t find any stats to the contrary, maybe you can?
[/quote]
http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/
[/quote]
312 in 21 years in pretty rare isn’t it?[/quote]
Only if it is not you or your loved ones. How many did they miss?
[/quote]
114 people were added to death row in 2010, how many of the victim’s families do you think miss their loved one?
[/quote]
All of them. How will killing any of those people make them miss them any less? Particularly if they later find out an innocent person was killed to avenge their loved ones murder.
[/quote]
Spot on. If someone kills my loved one I’m wanting punishment. Life in prison is punishment. The death penalty is punishment. In only one of those scenarios is mistakes made by our flawed justice system correctable.
Hell it’s bad enough we rob some people of years of their life as they struggle to prove we messed up. It’s infinitely worse to not give them that chance.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
It’s not like it just doesn’t happen often though, it is extremely rare for a person convicted of murder t o be found innocent. I can’t find any stats to the contrary, maybe you can?
[/quote]
http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/
[/quote]
312 in 21 years in pretty rare isn’t it?[/quote]
Only if it is not you or your loved ones. How many did they miss?
[/quote]
114 people were added to death row in 2010, how many of the victim’s families do you think miss their loved one?
[/quote]
All of them. How will killing any of those people make them miss them any less? Particularly if they later find out an innocent person was killed to avenge their loved ones murder.
[/quote]
I have no idea how other people will feel in any given situation.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I would have no problem if we had someone who we undeniably saw on video do something and it was clear enough that no one could possibly think it was not this person. I would rather just scrap the death penalty and have everyone sit in jail because it’s quite the risk currently in some states.
For all these people who are innocent who got off we need to keep in mind they WERE convicted by our justice system and they had to gain their freedom by proving themselves innocent. That sentence right there is easily enough for me to believe I’m on the correct side of this one. [/quote]
Here is my take on a more philosophical level. A murderer has ended their victims ability to feel. They will never again feel happy, loved, etc… To me, letting that murderer breathe one more second is a slap in the face of the victim and the victims family. Even in prison they can feel happiness, love, etc… How is that “fair” in the vast majority of cases where the person convicted committed the crime. That to me is why it’s a gray area.
[/quote]
I don’t disagree with your assessment of the murderer ending that persons ability to feel. However the answer is not let’s have the government kill people and hope they are right because we want to make sure the families feel good about it.
Life in prison or dead is irrelevant. Nothing brings back a murdered family member. Nothing lets them “feel” again. No punishment erases that fact. Knowing that let’s not have the government gamble on getting it right through our justice system and if they get it wrong and we kill an innocent person well hey it’s pretty rare.
I see both sides on abortion. I do not see both sides on this. I think it’s obviously not worth the risk when we know we have made numerous mistakes throughout our history in convictions.
Just my opinion of course. [/quote]
I’m broadening the topic here, but couldn’t this apply to a lot of things. War comes to mind. Innocent people die in war, it’s an ugly truth and it’s true of every conflict. We didn’t defeat the Japanese or Hitler without innocents dying and we didn’t take Fellujah without innocents dying either.
So do we not go to war, ever, because the risk is too high that innocents might die?[/quote]
Of course it could apply to a lot of things. In war we KNOW innocent people will die and that is the unfortunate and uncontrollable instance of wars throughout history. We CAN control this. We can make sure we don’t kill innocent people via a flawed system by not having the death penalty. [/quote]
We could control innocent death in war too, by not going. I mean that’s essentially what you’re saying. Innocents might die if convicted of murder so we shouldn’t use the death penalty. Innocents might die in war so we shouldn’t do it, right?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
H,
What I’m also not following is, how can you be okay with allowing abortions in certain circumstances (ie health/rape) when it’s entirely possible just 1 single one of those babies created through a rape was actually created consensual? Or what about a mothers who has an abortion for health reasons, but it turns out the Dr was wrong or she would have lived through birth? Isn’t that counter to you stance here, if just 1 innocent is put to death than no one should be put to death.[/quote]
Because I don’t view them as similar issues at all. Again this is KNOWING a flawed justice system is wrong plenty of times. What you are talking about are hypothetical scenarios like “well what if the woman wasn’t actually raped” or what if the dr. was wrong this one time? I dunno…what if?
Those scenarios while plausible perhaps are completely made up. I’m not making the following up:
Our justice system has a HISTORY of getting it wrong throughout it’s inception. It’s a good system, but nowhere near a system that we can say gets it right all the time. In fact we can PROVE it doesn’t get it right many times.
Now, knowing that how could we possibly think the government should use this system to kill people? [/quote]
They aren’t really hypothetical. We know woman have lied about rape (Duke Lacrosse team) and we know doctors are wrong quite often.
Look, I see your point. I’m being nit picky at this point. I still think with enough evidence we should put what amounts to a rabid dog down.
No innocent should be put to death, in any circumstance, but it happens. Two innocents were just gunned down at a mall I frequent quite a bit near here just a week or so ago. It’s an ugly part of life. [/quote]
Here is the difference:
You are arguing that we should not give a woman the choice to abort if her health is in jeopardy because we may make mistakes. Both of these are making decisions FOR people based on the assumption that humans are flawed. In these instances especially those rare hypotheticals are not nearly worth putting women’s lives at risk because some doctor may have read something wrong. I know you agree with that.
I am arguing that we should not kill people via a flawed justice system because other punishments exist that are not final and we KNOW we have messed up many times in our justice system. I don’t think it is a good comparison in the least bit. Why do we HAVE to kill murderers? I mean fuck them seriously, but why does that HAVE to be the punishment? It simply doesn’t. Life in prison is plenty good. And Life in prison gives us a chance if we screw up. The death penalty does not.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I would have no problem if we had someone who we undeniably saw on video do something and it was clear enough that no one could possibly think it was not this person. I would rather just scrap the death penalty and have everyone sit in jail because it’s quite the risk currently in some states.
For all these people who are innocent who got off we need to keep in mind they WERE convicted by our justice system and they had to gain their freedom by proving themselves innocent. That sentence right there is easily enough for me to believe I’m on the correct side of this one. [/quote]
Here is my take on a more philosophical level. A murderer has ended their victims ability to feel. They will never again feel happy, loved, etc… To me, letting that murderer breathe one more second is a slap in the face of the victim and the victims family. Even in prison they can feel happiness, love, etc… How is that “fair” in the vast majority of cases where the person convicted committed the crime. That to me is why it’s a gray area.
[/quote]
I don’t disagree with your assessment of the murderer ending that persons ability to feel. However the answer is not let’s have the government kill people and hope they are right because we want to make sure the families feel good about it.
Life in prison or dead is irrelevant. Nothing brings back a murdered family member. Nothing lets them “feel” again. No punishment erases that fact. Knowing that let’s not have the government gamble on getting it right through our justice system and if they get it wrong and we kill an innocent person well hey it’s pretty rare.
I see both sides on abortion. I do not see both sides on this. I think it’s obviously not worth the risk when we know we have made numerous mistakes throughout our history in convictions.
Just my opinion of course. [/quote]
I’m broadening the topic here, but couldn’t this apply to a lot of things. War comes to mind. Innocent people die in war, it’s an ugly truth and it’s true of every conflict. We didn’t defeat the Japanese or Hitler without innocents dying and we didn’t take Fellujah without innocents dying either.
So do we not go to war, ever, because the risk is too high that innocents might die?[/quote]
Of course it could apply to a lot of things. In war we KNOW innocent people will die and that is the unfortunate and uncontrollable instance of wars throughout history. We CAN control this. We can make sure we don’t kill innocent people via a flawed system by not having the death penalty. [/quote]
We could control innocent death in war too, by not going. I mean that’s essentially what you’re saying. Innocents might die if convicted of murder so we shouldn’t use the death penalty. Innocents might die in war so we shouldn’t do it, right? [/quote]
Actually it’s not what I’m saying at all. Civilian casualties are going to happen in a war throughout history. We MAY have instances where we need to go to war or war is justifiable. We never have an instance where we NEED to kill someone who may be innocent with our justice system. We aren’t running out of prison space. We have no reason. None at all.
It’s really not even close to the same thing.
I agree about the putting a rabid dog down…it’s just we are talking about humans. And right now we can’t prove with 100% certainty that these humans are rabid dogs therefore why risk it?
[quote]H factor wrote:
Here is the difference:
You are arguing that we should not give a woman the choice to abort if her health is in jeopardy because we may make mistakes. Both of these are making decisions FOR people based on the assumption that humans are flawed. In these instances especially those rare hypotheticals are not nearly worth putting women’s lives at risk because some doctor may have read something wrong. I know you agree with that.
[/quote]
Except that in those rare instances a life is being taken when it could have been safely born.
I don’t understand how on one hand you can say we should not use the death penalty because on rare instances someone may be innocent while on the other hand you say it is okay to abort a fetus (who are certainly innocent every single time) even though rare instances exist where a baby could be born safely (for both mother and child).
Yes, both rely on mistakes (jury or doctor).
I’m also not arguing that position, more Devils Advocate.
I understand that.
[quote]
I don’t think it is a good comparison in the least bit. Why do we HAVE to kill murderers? I mean fuck them seriously, but why does that HAVE to be the punishment? It simply doesn’t. Life in prison is plenty good. And Life in prison gives us a chance if we screw up. The death penalty does not. [/quote]
True, but why do we allow people to kill a fetus, just because the mother was raped or has health issues? How is that fair to the innocent party?
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
I would have no problem if we had someone who we undeniably saw on video do something and it was clear enough that no one could possibly think it was not this person. I would rather just scrap the death penalty and have everyone sit in jail because it’s quite the risk currently in some states.
For all these people who are innocent who got off we need to keep in mind they WERE convicted by our justice system and they had to gain their freedom by proving themselves innocent. That sentence right there is easily enough for me to believe I’m on the correct side of this one. [/quote]
Here is my take on a more philosophical level. A murderer has ended their victims ability to feel. They will never again feel happy, loved, etc… To me, letting that murderer breathe one more second is a slap in the face of the victim and the victims family. Even in prison they can feel happiness, love, etc… How is that “fair” in the vast majority of cases where the person convicted committed the crime. That to me is why it’s a gray area.
[/quote]
I don’t disagree with your assessment of the murderer ending that persons ability to feel. However the answer is not let’s have the government kill people and hope they are right because we want to make sure the families feel good about it.
Life in prison or dead is irrelevant. Nothing brings back a murdered family member. Nothing lets them “feel” again. No punishment erases that fact. Knowing that let’s not have the government gamble on getting it right through our justice system and if they get it wrong and we kill an innocent person well hey it’s pretty rare.
I see both sides on abortion. I do not see both sides on this. I think it’s obviously not worth the risk when we know we have made numerous mistakes throughout our history in convictions.
Just my opinion of course. [/quote]
I’m broadening the topic here, but couldn’t this apply to a lot of things. War comes to mind. Innocent people die in war, it’s an ugly truth and it’s true of every conflict. We didn’t defeat the Japanese or Hitler without innocents dying and we didn’t take Fellujah without innocents dying either.
So do we not go to war, ever, because the risk is too high that innocents might die?[/quote]
Of course it could apply to a lot of things. In war we KNOW innocent people will die and that is the unfortunate and uncontrollable instance of wars throughout history. We CAN control this. We can make sure we don’t kill innocent people via a flawed system by not having the death penalty. [/quote]
We could control innocent death in war too, by not going. I mean that’s essentially what you’re saying. Innocents might die if convicted of murder so we shouldn’t use the death penalty. Innocents might die in war so we shouldn’t do it, right? [/quote]
Actually it’s not what I’m saying at all. Civilian casualties are going to happen in a war throughout history. We MAY have instances where we need to go to war or war is justifiable. We never have an instance where we NEED to kill someone who may be innocent with our justice system. We aren’t running out of prison space. We have no reason. None at all.
It’s really not even close to the same thing.
I agree about the putting a rabid dog down…it’s just we are talking about humans. And right now we can’t prove with 100% certainty that these humans are rabid dogs therefore why risk it? [/quote]
Okay, I understand.
Damn it H, you’re coming dangerously close to changing a stance on PWI…
It might break the internet.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Damn it H, you’re coming dangerously close to changing a stance on PWI…
It might break the internet. [/quote]
Lol don’t quit now. The important thing is never to change your mind!
Hell I’m as inconsistent as ever. I think too damn much. And I never have concrete 100% beliefs. Hell what I believe this year and last year are quite different in some cases.
I just don’t want anyone to think I have empathy for criminals. I fucking hate criminals as much as anyone else. I just feel like I’ve posted on some of the logical points for being against a firing squad.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
True, but why do we allow people to kill a fetus, just because the mother was raped or has health issues? How is that fair to the innocent party?
[/quote]
I’m not sure it IS fair. I don’t really know what is fair in those circumstances. I just don’t think it is MY job to tell a woman who has been raped what she must do with her body. Nor do I think it is my job to tell a mother who we think may die if she carries to term that she must do it. I view both of those as individual choices that H Factor cannot make for other people and should not make for other people.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Damn it H, you’re coming dangerously close to changing a stance on PWI…
It might break the internet. [/quote]
Forget the internet, I think it might break the whole universe!
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Damn it H, you’re coming dangerously close to changing a stance on PWI…
It might break the internet. [/quote]
Forget the internet, I think it might break the whole universe![/quote]
Quick, we need usmc to compare me to Hitler or for me to compare him to Hitler.
Uhmm, Hitler killed people therefore usmc is basically Hitler so I’m right and you’re wrong you Holocaust promoter!
Shit we may have just saved it. That was too close.