Why Lift?

[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
No doubt. I don’t think I’m bad. I’m just saying lifting weights doesn’t make you a tough guy by any means.[/quote]

What about 2 identical people in every way, including any non-weight lifting training.

One is 150 lbs, skinny, a little spare tire around his waist and weak, the other used to be that same 150lb skinny/fat kit, but started training with weights intelligently and grew to 200lbs, with less body fat.

All else the same, the guy who trained with weights would be larger, stronger, faster, quicker, healthier, more confident, happier, less lazy, and more flexible.

If they got into a fight, I don’t think it would be a draw. If they competed in just about any sport, I don’t think the smaller guy would come out ahead either.

Just for the record, they don’t separate fighters into weight classes to protect the heavy weights.

Nobody is saying that weight training is the only factor that comes into play with sports or fighting, but there’s no doubt that it helps.

As SWR said:

DON’T FEED THE TROLLS!

So I can kick the piss out of your dumb ass

what camp do you train with, and what shows have you fought in??

im been around mma since 1997, and i notice there are always these guys on the net talking about kicking the shit out of people

about the only legit guy that ever started off his career by talking shit that i can think of is phil baroni

if you are just sparring mma, you arent nearly as bad ass of a fighter as i imagine you think you are. egos get people in a lot of trouble

i apologize if you are a pro, but then again most pro’s dont disparage lifting weights

[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
I’d rather fight, play a sport against or compete at pretty much anything against someone my height that was 220 or 150. Either/or, I’d have them both whipped for different reasons.[/quote]

Mike Tyson is just a tad taller than you at 225 lbs…but I guess you’d kick his ass wouldn’t you tough guy…

do you consider olympic weightlifting a sport? there are plenty of oly lifters that are around your height and ~220 lbs that would slaughter you in a competition…

how about wrestlers at international level of competition? there are plenty of them around your height @ 220 lbs…think you’d win?

maybe it’s time you put your bloated ego in check…

[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:

It’s not for improved real-life functional strength for work etc. Most weight training simply does not carry over to real world activities and most really strong individuals such as farmers and lumber jacks never touch a weight.
[/quote]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!!! All weight training carries over into real life. All of it. If it wasn’t so, then I would not actually be doing better now than I have ten years ago.

I’ll avoid the flaming and other derogatory remarks toward this thread that you started, but I have to ask: Since you feel so strongly about the negative effects of lifting, why do YOU lift?

How about Michael Jordan? What about Wilt Chamberlain? Lennox Lweis? Evaner HOlyfied? Michael Johnson? Barry Sanders?

These guys lifted and I guess they’re sure legends already

The guys you mentioned were also great athletes and it actually makes me think how much better they would have been if they were strength training

[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
DooMMOoD wrote:
Pound4Pound wrote:

Ever watch football? Ever watch the olympics? Ever watch baseball? Ever watch basketball? Ever watch any professional sport or sporting event? The athletes in all these sports or events have great muscular builds that they achieved by lifting weights. I would consider them all very athletic, wouldn’t you?

Interesting topic for discussion, are the athletes you speak of better than those of 40 years ago who didn’t weight train?

World records have been broken but many advancements in nutrition, living conditions, easier work environments for athletes (if at all), drugs and advancements in training routines have know doubt lead to that. Not necessarily the weights.

Could Hassim ‘The Rock’ Ahmed have beaten Ali or Frazier? Doubt it.

Is Ben Wallace more athletic than Kareem Abdul Jabar or Kevin McHale?? FUCK NO!!!

Was Bonds more athletic than Mays, Ruth or Ted Williams…FUCK NO!!!

[/quote]

[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
I am not tough and don’t claim to be. However, a lot of teenagers on this sight seem to thing lifting weights makes you tough and able to fight…IT DOES NOT…AT ALL!!
[/quote]

And there are a lot of others that think looking up to a UFC or MMA fighter makes them tough too.

[quote]MisterAmazing wrote:
So I can kick the piss out of your dumb ass[/quote]

LOLOLOLOLOL Not if that’s your skinny awkward looking ass in your avatar!!

LOL!!!

I can’t believe this thread didn’t die when somebody suggested that you could replace heavy back squats with EMS!

In the unlikely event that this isn’t all just a big joke, those who think that athletes can dispense with weight training need to read Supertraining and Science and Practice of Strength Training, and report back after they’ve done their homework.

[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
I wanna be like this guy:[/quote]

Lol! I guess you better get back to the weight room then because you do know he lifts, right? He also utilizes strong man training (tire flipping, ect). But you’re right, I guess all that useless strength training hasn’t done a damn thing for his fight game; or, for that matter, Mirko Filipovic’s; or the numerous other wold class fighters I could name.

The best proof in the world that size and strength can make up for lack of skill is Bob Sapp. The guy has very little skill but makes up for it in strength…strength he developed in the weight room. If you don’t believe me, ask Ernesto Hoost (who he beat twice, I believe)…

Everything else being equal (and even slightly unequal in some cases) strength and size goes a long way in deciding the outcome of a fight…

[quote]vermilion wrote:
Fenris wrote:
Because I am a warrior.

Strength and Fucking Honor.

I’ll give you this - you do an excellent Kellen Winslow II impression. I think you must have stuck a few wheels of cheddar on the bar with your last bench press, your post was so full of cheese, but props on selling it with such vigor.[/quote]

Now that you mention it, I am a little constipated now…

[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
Fenris wrote:
Pound4Pound wrote:
Bigger stronger, faster…and more cumbersome, less limber, less agile, less coordinated and less athletic. There is a trade-off for bigger and stronger my friends.

Bullshit. You know nothing. The wrong kind of weight training combined with neglecting your other skills will hamper athletic ability. But long distance running will also hamper the athletic ability of someone whose sport is primarily anaerobic. You have to use an intelligent program that attacks sports requirements and addresses weaknesses.

Countless studies have shown that Olympic weightlifters have sprinting times, jumping heights, and jumping distances equal to Olympic track and field athletes. Are you saying that all of these Olympic athletes are “unathletic?”

All professional MMA fighters use weights, and they’re constantly getting faster, stronger, more agile, and more flexible. My sprints got faster when I started lifting properly, my agility improved, and so did my flexibility. Some guys lose athletic qualities when they lift weights, but some guys are idiots.

As far as doing calisthenics, calisthenics don’t always relate as well to a sport. Linebackers, for instance have to use force against external resistance in their sport, hence weight training. Quinton “Rampage” Jackson picks up opponents and slams them. Can’t train that with calisthenics. Hell, even many jobs. You mentioned lumberjacks in your first post. WTF do you think that they’re doing all day? USING EXTERNAL RESISTANCE!!! So, what, instead of mimicking those motions with weights in the gym we should all go and chop down trees for 8 hours a day?

Not to mention economy of time. Let’s say I do 300 bodyweight squats, 100 push-ups, 100 divebombers, and 20 pullups. To keep progressing, I have to increase those numbers. Maybe I get to 500 squats, 300 pushups, 150 divebombers, and 40 pullups. Well, that workout just took twice as long. Eventually, I have to work out for three hours to get the workout that I used to get in an hour (not to mention destroying my joints from over-repetition). Instead, I can bench press or barbell squat and increase the weight gradually, still only training for an hour at a time.

Bottom line: athletes need to train multiple qualities through different means. Here’s an example:

Strength Endurance: Calisthenics
Speed: Sprinting
Agility: Ladder work
Flexibility: Stretching
Maximal Strength: Squatting, Deadlifting
Power/Speed Strength: Olympic Lifts
Skills/Technique: Specific skill, technique work

All things being equal going into a training program, the athlete that uses a comprehensive approach will always smoke the one that doesn’t.

You seem to forget that you’re on a website where the cutting edge strength and conditioning science is available, so all that you’re doing is showing your ignorance.
Of course, as anti-weightlifting as you seem, I wonder if one of the following things has happened:
A) A weightlifter kicked your ass
B) A weightlifter has taken your girlfriend
C) A weightlifter turned you down for a date

You may wonder why we’re all so hostile to you. Well, consider your first post. There is a gulf of difference between an informed, curious criticism and an ignorant, arrogant, bitter insult.

Nice post, you convinced me.

Now some back-ground.

1st of all I’ve trained more, for a longer time, harder and have reached a level of conditioning from weights that exceeds at minimum 90% of the people I’m arguing with.

2nd, after 14 straight years of lifting, I have just recently stopped for the last 4 weeks. The first time I’ve done that in 14 years.

3rd In that time I’ve done sprinting, MMA and bodyweight training daily. I feel better and more athletic than I have in 14 years. Seriously.

4th. I think if anything you all have convinced me that I should resume lifting but realize I want to be athletic and fit as much as strong and powerful. Therefore my routine should reflect that. Instead of 4-5 sessions of weights/week to strive to gain more size and strength, I should hit weights a couple times and maintain focus on sprints, MMA, stretching, plyos and bodyweight excercises as well in order to stay strong and powerful while becoming even more agile, athletic, fast and explosive.

Thanks everyone for their posts…Pound is back on the weights bitch’s!!![/quote]

Hmm. I notice that you are hitting the weights a couple times a week rather than none. Why lift?

“The history of strength training started with the ancient Greeks. Hippocrates eloquently explained the principle behind weight training when he wrote “that which is used develops, and that which is not used wastes away.” Progressive resistance training dates back to at least the 6th century BC, when legend has it that wrestler Milo of Croton trained by carrying a newborn calf on his back every day until the calf was fully grown. Another Greek, the physician Galen, described strength training exercises using the halteres (an early form of dumbbell) in the 2nd century AD.”

Archaelogists have found frescoes depicting ancient greek athletes using primitive barbells in training. The very first professional athletes recognized the benefits.

Evidence shows that the practice of resistance exercises dates way back to as much as 4500 years ago. Ancient sculptures and wall paintings of men lifting heavy bags and objects can be found in Egypt. Most of these works of art depict men with muscular bodies, which by today’s standards would be considered bodybuilders.

Roman Gladiators and Soldiers trained with a wooden version of the gladius that weighed roughly twice that of the real weapon, to develop strength endurance and undoubtedly,extra muscle.

As for your misconception about “being big” making you slow and awkward.
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=716365

Here is a quote from Berardi’s article;
“Five foot five inches tall?
One hundred eighty pounds?
Eight percent body fat?”

These guys hunted mastadons which required tremendous athletic ability.

Have you seen a women’s fitness competition. They all train with weights and are muscular by female standards but extremely flexible and agile.

Research in the 60s and 70s proved that correctly performed resistance exercise does not negatively affect flexibility Alter, 1996. The Science of Flexibility, Human Kinetics, p151.

Weight-training exercises have been shown to improve active ROM (range of motion), Tumanyan & Dzhanya, 1984

Groves and Gayle (1989) surveyed the top 100 men’s college basketball teams from a the poll of USA Today. Their results stated that 98% of the top 100 schools had a pre-season weight-training program. Seventy five percent of them had an in-season training program. The percentages of the schools that provided off-season and summer programs were 88 and 64 respectively. The ANOVA test also showed that schools having an in-season weight-training program ranked higher than those without such a program.

Although this correlation did not indicate that strength training led to a better record, it reflected that 87% of coaches and athletic directors supported the idea of strength training.

Groves, B.R. & Gayle, R.C. (1993). Physiological changes in male basketball players in year-round strength training. Journal of Strength and Conditioning research. 7(1), 30-33.

There are numerous studies showing a relationship between athletic performance and strength. While you can develop endurance strength and elastic strength without weight training maximal strength can only be achieved by adding resistance (weight training).

Strong correlation between sprinting speed and jumping speed with maximal strength on the squat.
Br J Sports Med 2004;38:285-288

Maximal Strength training increases aerobic endurance performance.
Scand J Med Sci Sports. 2002 Oct;12(5):288-95.

Maximal strength contributes to power in well trained collegiate throwers.
Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2003, 17(4), 739?745

[quote]Ryu13 wrote:
ReadyToLose2005 wrote:
As you said here:

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=924976&pageNo=0#924988

Cause it looks cool.

Booooya!

Bodybuilding is a sport, get over it.[/quote]

Then so is the Miss Universe peagent! Notice the similarities in titles?? Miss Universe, Mr. Olympia??

I lift, therefor I am.

Claes

[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
MisterAmazing wrote:
So I can kick the piss out of your dumb ass

LOLOLOLOLOL Not if that’s your skinny awkward looking ass in your avatar!![/quote]

umm…his looks pretty identical to yours mate…lol

Anyone who says that weightlifting doesn’t make you tough is right. But when it comes down to it, two untrained fighters, the bigger and stronger will usually win.

having the “power” look about you also goes a long way in detering assholes who might otherwise want to start something with you. When i was a skinny kid i would always get flak from other people and i got my ass kicked on several occasions. When i got into weightlifting and put on 40 lbs, i have to deal with alot less shit from other people.

Case in point, in highschool my friend was 6-4 and around 220 (not in shape), shove me around no problem. i was 5-8 and 150. several years later, i am 190 and even though he was bigger than me, i was alot stronger and was able to take him down and subdue him.

also, in jiu-jitsu, i could usually muscle my way out of some of the more experienced grapplers holds because i was alot stronger than them. So to say being stronger doesn’t help is just ridiculous.

The reason a lot of old atheletes were amazing without lifting weights was because they had pure talent. There are just some people that extremely athletic naturally without any form of training.

why is anyone still responding to this pound4pound bum? he’s an idiot, whose argument has degenerated to “i could beat you up, because you lift weights, and since that doesnt make you tough, I’m tougher than you.” thats sounds about 3rd grade to me…just let this die