Pavel Tsatsouline

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

Why would this guy write and why would anyone buy a book about bodybuilding from a guy who shamelessly puts down bodybuilders.

In his first book, he literally bombed on machines, “pump training”, sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and a number of other bodybuilding topics.

He actually had a quote in his book “bodybuilding is the worst thing to happen to strength training”. Thanks, Pavel. If bodybuilders are so worthless, then why speak of them, write for bodybuilding publications (including T-mag), and attend the Arnold?

Why doesn’t this guy bash Ed Coan, Dorian Yates, and Ronnie Coleman for using the leg extension, leg press, and hack squat machines? Because his 500 lb deadlift at 180 lbs wouldn’t do much while they ate him for breakfast.

2

He’s got stuff to sell and he’s not afraid to say stupid things to promote himself and his stuff.

Imagine deadlifting in such a way (sets and reps) that you purposely AVOID getting bigger muscles?

Sounds like fun.

3

I also wonder why Ann Coulter is famous for her political views.

I would guess it’s that being polarizing and starting shit generates interest. For example… this thread.

4

[quote]derek wrote:
He’s got stuff to sell and he’s not afraid to say stupid things to promote himself and his stuff.

Imagine deadlifting in such a way (sets and reps) that you purposely AVOID getting bigger muscles?

Sounds like fun.[/quote]

Yeah I couldnt really see the point of that for a bodybuilder or even the regular lifter. I guess it makes sense, though, if you’re trying to stay within a weight class for whatever reason, or carrying less bodyweight would otherwise help you.

5

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I also wonder why Ann Coulter is famous for her political views.

I would guess it’s that being polarizing and starting shit generates interest. For example… this thread.[/quote]

The funny thing is that I am in agreement with you, despite the fact that I am the original poster of this thread. I used to think of myself as a moral, good natured person but have realized I am a bit of a sadist down deep.

I just can’t seem to help myself, nor do I care to, when people who bash bodybuilders actually thrive (ie: earn dough and advance their careers) by doing so and even writing for bodybuilding publications and attending bodybuilding events.

This thread might generate interest for the reasons that Derek and I have stated. However, this is what Pavel does as well. Bodybuilders have large muscles. Pavel writes books on how to write muscles while putting down the methods that bodybuilders have used to gain large muscles. How sensible!

The reason I started this thread was because I just saw that he wrote a book called Beyond Bodybuilding. He also wrote for Muscle Media, a bodybuilding publication. However, this is the same time that he started writing bodybuilding related material and quite ripping on bodybuilders.

I just can’t seem to understand, nor should I, why Alwyn Cosgrove, Chad Waterbury, Pavel Tsatsouline, and others continue to bash bodybuilders and describe how their training “has limitations”. Well being that some natural bodybuilders reach offseason weights of 230 to 240# while at average height and drug aided bodybuilders reach offseason weights of 265 to 300#, I would like to know just how limited their training is.

Perhaps if they took up more “unlimited” ways of training, we would see offseason bodybuilders at weights of 350 to 400 and natural ones at offseason weights of 265 to 300! Maybe Dorian Yates would have been 350 lbs offseason if he upped his training frequency back to the frequency he used when he started (the magic three times per week). I have to stop now. I just become too evil with this stuff. :slight_smile:

6

In fact i believe Pavel knows his stuff in the topics of strength and martial arts but he loses his credibility by, first,talking about bodybuilding, thats an area that he dont knows well and seems to deslike and second, pushing that kettlebell stuff (common snatching an kettlebell makes you bigger, stronger and leaner than snatching a dumbell?).

From the other authors you mentioned, Alwyn Cosgrove seems a very humble guy and he already stated that he isnt qualified to train BBers, and he speaks for other audience (more general fitness).About Chad, i think he should specify better for who he is writing, to not get like Pavel.

7

From “Fortness” Fortney, something Pavel and other stength advocates need to learn

8

Since I try very hard to not write or speak about subjects that I don’t understand, I actually have three of Pav’s books.

He speaks a lot about paramilitary (police, SWAT, SRT etc.) training. He seems to be stuck on this “big strength, little muscles” kick.

Since we all know that you can be BIG and strong and agile (like most of the NFL) why would someone be so against large muscles on L.E.O.s?

I for one would be much less apt to fight or screw with some big, bad sonofabitch cop than some 165lb guy that may or may not be able to do a proper Janda situp or bent-press a one-pood kettlebell.

9

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Why would this guy write and why would anyone buy a book about bodybuilding from a guy who shamelessly puts down bodybuilders.

In his first book, he literally bombed on machines, “pump training”, sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and a number of other bodybuilding topics.

He actually had a quote in his book “bodybuilding is the worst thing to happen to strength training”. Thanks, Pavel. If bodybuilders are so worthless, then why speak of them, write for bodybuilding publications (including T-mag), and attend the Arnold?

Why doesn’t this guy bash Ed Coan, Dorian Yates, and Ronnie Coleman for using the leg extension, leg press, and hack squat machines? Because his 500 lb deadlift at 180 lbs wouldn’t do much while they ate him for breakfast.[/quote]

If you don’t like his peaches, don’t shake his tree.

10

[quote]Sagat wrote:
In fact i believe Pavel knows his stuff in the topics of strength and martial arts but he loses his credibility by, first,talking about bodybuilding, thats an area that he dont knows well and seems to deslike and second, pushing that kettlebell stuff (common snatching an kettlebell makes you bigger, stronger and leaner than snatching a dumbell?).

From the other authors you mentioned, Alwyn Cosgrove seems a very humble guy and he already stated that he isnt qualified to train BBers, and he speaks for other audience (more general fitness).

About Chad, i think he should specify better for who he is writing, to not get like Pavel.[/quote]

His antics may cause him to “lose credibility” with you, but so what? I’m sure Pavel is aware that he “loses credibility” with 90% of the people who come into contact with him and his writings. That is not his concern. His concern is the small percentage that say, “Damn this guy is the man”.

You can list a hundred humble authors and I bet you that just about all of them are making a fraction of the money Pavel is bringing in with his polarizing, controversial teachings.

11

Pavel is the shit. I have his book, beyond bodybuilding. Learned quite a lot and gained a lot of strength. I skipped anything having to do with a kettleball though.

12

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I also wonder why Ann Coulter is famous for her political views.

I would guess it’s that being polarizing and starting shit generates interest. For example… this thread.

The funny thing is that I am in agreement with you, despite the fact that I am the original poster of this thread. I used to think of myself as a moral, good natured person but have realized I am a bit of a sadist down deep.

I just can’t seem to help myself, nor do I care to, when people who bash bodybuilders actually thrive (ie: earn dough and advance their careers) by doing so and even writing for bodybuilding publications and attending bodybuilding events.

This thread might generate interest for the reasons that Derek and I have stated. However, this is what Pavel does as well. Bodybuilders have large muscles. Pavel writes books on how to write muscles while putting down the methods that bodybuilders have used to gain large muscles. How sensible!

The reason I started this thread was because I just saw that he wrote a book called Beyond Bodybuilding. He also wrote for Muscle Media, a bodybuilding publication. However, this is the same time that he started writing bodybuilding related material and quite ripping on bodybuilders.

I just can’t seem to understand, nor should I, why Alwyn Cosgrove, Chad Waterbury, Pavel Tsatsouline, and others continue to bash bodybuilders and describe how their training “has limitations”. Well being that some natural bodybuilders reach offseason weights of 230 to 240# while at average height and drug aided bodybuilders reach offseason weights of 265 to 300#, I would like to know just how limited their training is.

Perhaps if they took up more “unlimited” ways of training, we would see offseason bodybuilders at weights of 350 to 400 and natural ones at offseason weights of 265 to 300! Maybe Dorian Yates would have been 350 lbs offseason if he upped his training frequency back to the frequency he used when he started (the magic three times per week). I have to stop now. I just become too evil with this stuff. :)[/quote]

Some of these authors have valid points about the limited nature of traditional bodybuilding training.

The idea here is that traditional bodybuilding tends to emphasize a limited number of movement patterns at the exclusion of others. At first glance, this seems obvious: use what works. However, this can be problematic as bodybuilders age, resulting in decreased range of motion, decreased ability to recruit muscle fibers, more achy joints, etc.

Cosgrove and Abel in particular have been vocal about including high speed hybrid movements based on the “human movement model”: bending, twisting, extending, pulling, pushing, squatting, lunging, etc (and often with single limb emphasis). They are noticing increased neuromuscular coordination, which for bodybuilders, strikes a chord with recruiting the big muscle fibers.

This Abel article is excellent:
http://www.T-Nation.com/article/bodybuilding/building_the_case_for_hybrid_training&cr=

Let me know if I can clarify anything.

13

Train.For.Your.Specific.Goal

14

While it is clear from his reading that he is not a BBer specific traner, I do have one of his books as I believe it is always in your best interest to hear different theories and approaches if only to have some new stuff to try.

S

15

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
While it is clear from his reading that he is not a BBer specific traner, I do have one of his books as I believe it is always in your best interest to hear different theories and approaches if only to have some new stuff to try.

S
[/quote]

Plus he’s fun to read. I don’t care what anyone says, his whole Russian “Comrade” schtick never gets old.

16

Good book read it before passing judgement.
And yes I would agree as a coach that “bodybuilding” has put a monkeywrench in strength training - sports specific weight training. to many variables and fluff excercises get alot of people confused about how to lift for their specific goals.
That being said I would actually say it is one of the best books to read about "bodybuilding’
try the Delorme method - it plain works-real well how he sets it up.(sidenote)
This is the basic routine my football players use and boy does it work.

edit: Also in the book he explains that when traing for strength size follows but 1 of the reasons he “bashes” the way BBers train is that they always look stronger than they are compared to a strength athlete.
If you put a BBer next to a powerlifter or oly lifter
and equal in terms of height -weight bodyfat the BBers suffer in the performance side. So he likes to train for performance and strength and side effect is muscle-not the other way around

17

You just said that bodybuilders LOOK stronger than they are. First off, I have yet to meet or know of a huge bodybuilder, aside from very lazy and indiscplined genetic freaks such as Paul Dilet and Flex Wheeler who is not damn strong! I am speaking of Dorian Yates, Mike Francois, Ronnie Coleman, Greg Kovacs, Gary Strydom, Chris Duffy, Phil Hernon, Arnold Schwarzenneger, Mike Mentzer, Sergio Oliva, Larry Scott, Chuck Sipes (bench press record holder), and natural competitors such as Skip La Cour, Jeff Willet, Marlon Hospedales (goes to my gym), Mike O’Hearn (OLer, BBer, and PLer, gladiator competitor; why doesn’t someone tell him he can’t “perform” to his face, haha) and a whole slew of others throughout the ages! The list is too long to go on!

Second of all, is there a “problem” with “looking strong” despite the fact that you may or may not be? Does “looking” strong have anything to do with physical prowess. No, performance does. Is there a “problem” with a bodybuilder “looking” strong? Actually, it can only help one.

I would like Pavel to cite some examples of top bodybuilders who can’t perform and how useless their big muscles are. Perhaps some powerlifters as well.

18

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
You just said that bodybuilders LOOK stronger than they are. First off, I have yet to meet or know of a huge bodybuilder, aside from very lazy and indiscplined genetic freaks such as Paul Dilet and Flex Wheeler who is not damn strong! I am speaking of Dorian Yates, Mike Francois, Ronnie Coleman, Greg Kovacs, Gary Strydom, Chris Duffy, Phil Hernon, Arnold Schwarzenneger, Mike Mentzer, Sergio Oliva, Larry Scott, Chuck Sipes (bench press record holder), and natural competitors such as Skip La Cour, Jeff Willet, Marlon Hospedales (goes to my gym), Mike O’Hearn (OLer, BBer, and PLer, gladiator competitor; why doesn’t someone tell him he can’t “perform” to his face, haha) and a whole slew of others throughout the ages! The list is too long to go on!

Second of all, is there a “problem” with “looking strong” despite the fact that you may or may not be? Does “looking” strong have anything to do with physical prowess. No, performance does. Is there a “problem” with a bodybuilder “looking” strong? Actually, it can only help one.

I would like Pavel to cite some examples of top bodybuilders who can’t perform and how useless their big muscles are. Perhaps some powerlifters as well. [/quote]

I don’t think Pavel is really refering to the top body-builders but more the average trainee. I happen to like his books, they’re very informative.

And so what if he bashes bodybuilders? I mean, I do crossfit and by that line of thinking I shouldn’t read the articles on this site because alot of the authors bash crossfit.

I mean come on. You never had a teacher in highschool/college who was a really good teacher but a complete d-bag?

19

Seriously, Brick!

Does Pavel realize that bodybuilders- the ones he’s putting- down are doing exactly what thier sport demands?

First of all it’s utter bullshit that bodybuilders are not strong. How many example do you need? Any of the guys Bricknyce mentioned could probably rip Pavels head off in thier day- or now for the current crop.

I thought this myth died along time ago.

Or is it true that bodybuilding makes you both dumb and weak?

EDIT; I mean “non-functional”.

20

thats pavels point he trains people for performance in a given sport muscles just follow as a side note.
Now BBers train for muscles for muscles sake. Nothing wrong with that.
Pavel trains the ordinary guy with ordinary genetics trying to get stronger-faster with solid methods.
Instead of picking apart a couple of thoughts the man says - read his books and then decide for yourself.

By the way instead of picking one topic and then giving examples of elite of elite BBers his books are for the masses and routines that work.
How many guys de we know who can follow a Sergio Routine or Arnold routine and gain week after week even juicing?

@ derek Pavel was Special Forces and trains Special Forces combat and conditioning now.
I think he knows his way around a fight

Just read his book before giving thoughts on a author after reading some guy on a internet paraphrase what he says