When i do rows at my gym i see almost everyone including my friends doing rows wrong. They put on alot of weight and then dont even bend over properly, and they are actually pulling the weight more like a shrug, rather than a row.
i like to keep the weight so that i can get between 5 and 10 good clean reps. I also believe they are of the best benefit when done with a controlled motion.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
I have heard of a lot of people messing up their backs going heavy on these.
I’ve heard of people hurting their knees squatting.
[/quote]
I stubbed my toe walking to my mailbox.
[quote]AgentOrange wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
Instead of stupid sarcasm, why doesn’t one of the rowing enthusiasts explain to me why doing them will be more beneficial to my powerlifts than chin ups? Is that too much to ask?
Alright, I’ll stop being a dick and try to add something useful to this thread.
It has nothing to do with rowing being more beneficial than pull-ups. The point you seem to be missing is that rowing and pull-ups are completely different movements, since they occur in completely different planes of motion.
This is akin to saying, “which is better – overhead pressing or bench pressing?” Neither is better, they are completely different. In fact, you should probably do both if possible.
Rowing is not better than pull-ups and pull-ups are not better than rowing. In fact, I think there’s a pretty strong case that you should do both if your goal is to become an elite strength athlete.[/quote]
I follow WSB protocols to the T which means tons of good mornings for me. As a result, my spinal erectors sometimes ache for a few days inbetween me or even after de days when I do other stuff for them.
Rows seem to aggravate them because you use them as stabilizers. Plus, I think that it takes extreme diligence to do them with impeccable form and most people including myself will start to round when they go heavy.
Chins/pulls on the other hand don’t put any pressure on the back and involve minimal chance of injury.
They do work the same muscles (the lats, rear delts,traps, rhomboids, biceps…)
Louie Simmons recommends to do either chins or chest supported rows. Chest supported rows are better because the support takes the pressure off of your back.
So all and all, I think that there are far better ways to work your upper back than rowing.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
AgentOrange wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
Instead of stupid sarcasm, why doesn’t one of the rowing enthusiasts explain to me why doing them will be more beneficial to my powerlifts than chin ups? Is that too much to ask?
Alright, I’ll stop being a dick and try to add something useful to this thread.
It has nothing to do with rowing being more beneficial than pull-ups. The point you seem to be missing is that rowing and pull-ups are completely different movements, since they occur in completely different planes of motion.
This is akin to saying, “which is better – overhead pressing or bench pressing?” Neither is better, they are completely different. In fact, you should probably do both if possible.
Rowing is not better than pull-ups and pull-ups are not better than rowing. In fact, I think there’s a pretty strong case that you should do both if your goal is to become an elite strength athlete.
I follow WSB protocols to the T which means tons of good mornings for me. As a result, my spinal erectors sometimes ache for a few days inbetween me or even after de days when I do other stuff for them.
Rows seem to aggravate them because you use them as stabilizers. Plus, I think that it takes extreme diligence to do them with impeccable form and most people including myself will start to round when they go heavy.
Chins/pulls on the other hand don’t put any pressure on the back and involve minimal chance of injury.
They do work the same muscles (the lats, rear delts,traps, rhomboids, biceps…)
Louie Simmons recommends to do either chins or chest supported rows. Chest supported rows are better because the support takes the pressure off of your back.
So all and all, I think that there are far better ways to work your upper back than rowing.
[/quote]
I have a somewhat similar view. I used to do relatively heavy barbell rows about 2x a week and it was always the most strenuous exercise on my lower back that I did in the week, about equal to good mornings or deadlifts. I started doing 1 Arm-Barbell Rows instead (like an old school T-Bar Row with one end of the bar in the corner lifting it by the other end but using one hand and with the bar to the side of your body instead of in between your legs). My upper back has gotten much bigger and stronger than it ever has from standard barbell rows in a very short frame of time due to this exercise, and my biceps have increased as well. Due to the lessened load its not too strenous on the lower back as long as you are conscious of your form, but if you arent careful it can be. Be warned that it will leave your entire back sore the next day, from the lats to the rhomboids to the middle trapezius.
[quote]KombatAthlete wrote:
I have a somewhat similar view. I used to do relatively heavy barbell rows about 2x a week and it was always the most strenuous exercise on my lower back that I did in the week, about equal to good mornings or deadlifts. I started doing 1 Arm-Barbell Rows instead (like an old school T-Bar Row with one end of the bar in the corner lifting it by the other end but using one hand and with the bar to the side of your body instead of in between your legs). My upper back has gotten much bigger and stronger than it ever has from standard barbell rows in a very short frame of time due to this exercise, and my biceps have increased as well. Due to the lessened load its not too strenous on the lower back as long as you are conscious of your form, but if you arent careful it can be. Be warned that it will leave your entire back sore the next day, from the lats to the rhomboids to the middle trapezius.
[/quote]
I forgot to mention that I train chins/pull-ups 3 days a week in addition to my regular workouts. Doing this has helped both my bench and my deadlift. There is no way that I could do this kind of volume with rows.
I don’t know what the debate is about anymore.
I said do them both. If you’re following a Westside template, it doesn’t mean that you have to do them both chins and rows in the same week or cycle. However, since Westside advocates changing exercises regularly, you should consider rowing to be another tool in your toolbox and add it in on a regular basis, instead of doing pull-ups every cycle.
On top of this, I never said you had to do bent over barbell rowing specifically. I just think it would be folly to completely neglect any form of horizontal pulling by assuming that vertical pulling is identical because it works some of the same muscles.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
I forgot to mention that I train chins/pull-ups 3 days a week in addition to my regular workouts. Doing this has helped both my bench and my deadlift. There is no way that I could do this kind of volume with rows.
[/quote]
How much do you weigh? What is your bench and deadlift? This might shed some light on the disagreement.
[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
How much do you weigh? What is your bench and deadlift? This might shed some light on the disagreement.[/quote]
I weigh 185 and compete and 181, lifetime drug free. What sort of lifts do I have to do to make my opinion valid?
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
I weigh 185 and compete and 181, lifetime drug free. What sort of lifts do I have to do to make my opinion valid?
[/quote]
That wasn’t my point. You’re going to get a whole different perspective from guys like me that outweigh you by a hundred pounds. From where I’m sitting, pullups tear the shit out of my shoulders if I train them too often, whereas bent-over rows don’t bother anything nearly as much.
I was asking the numbers not because I give a crap how strong you are, but because that might shed some light on the subject as well. If you are a 250 pound bencher and have never done any work for your upper back, then that is an entirely different story than being a 450 pound bencher who has slaved away at bent over rows for a decade and found that the switch to chinups has had amazing results. In the first case ANY direct upper back/lat work should get your numbers to move, and in the second case it may be that your traps, rhomboids, teres major/minor, etc. are already monstrously strong and your lats were the weak link.
Also, I agree that if you are following one of the older Westside programs “to a tee” your lower back will never get a break if you’re throwing in bent over rows on your upper body days. So the CSR seems a good suggestion. Weightlifters, or at least the team I was on, use the bent over row with some cheat to build the first (and primarily the second) pull partially because of the strong lower back involvement. But this was usually done during training cycles where we weren’t going super heavy with GM’s and SLDL’s several times a week.
I don’t disagree that pullups are a great exercise, I disagree with blanket statements like “pullups are far safer and more effective” than rows for a powerlifter. In some situations, maybe, in others, maybe not.
Why is rowing not going to work the same as chinups/pullups? This is anatomy and weightlifting 101. Yes, the same muscles are used, but to wildly varying degrees. The trapezius is used in chinups, the teres minor is used in the bench press… but would you ever try to build strong traps with chinups or strong external rotators with bench pressing? Of course not, and you know that. “All or nothing” is fibers, not whole muscles, and by rowing you’re going to strengthen several muscles much more quickly and effectively than by doing pullups, or gironda pullups, or towel pullups until you fall down.
Barbell rows are lame anyways. Even Charles Poliquin mentioned that he doesn’t like them. You have to use far too much lower back stabilization to effectively focus on the muscles you’re supposed to. Ditch them. Dumbell rows, chest supported rows, cable rows, band rows…there are a million more effective variations than barbell rows.
[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
I weigh 185 and compete and 181, lifetime drug free. What sort of lifts do I have to do to make my opinion valid?
That wasn’t my point. You’re going to get a whole different perspective from guys like me that outweigh you by a hundred pounds. From where I’m sitting, pullups tear the shit out of my shoulders if I train them too often, whereas bent-over rows don’t bother anything nearly as much.
I was asking the numbers not because I give a crap how strong you are, but because that might shed some light on the subject as well. If you are a 250 pound bencher and have never done any work for your upper back, then that is an entirely different story than being a 450 pound bencher who has slaved away at bent over rows for a decade and found that the switch to chinups has had amazing results. In the first case ANY direct upper back/lat work should get your numbers to move, and in the second case it may be that your traps, rhomboids, teres major/minor, etc. are already monstrously strong and your lats were the weak link.
Also, I agree that if you are following one of the older Westside programs “to a tee” your lower back will never get a break if you’re throwing in bent over rows on your upper body days. So the CSR seems a good suggestion. Weightlifters, or at least the team I was on, use the bent over row with some cheat to build the first (and primarily the second) pull partially because of the strong lower back involvement. But this was usually done during training cycles where we weren’t going super heavy with GM’s and SLDL’s several times a week.
I don’t disagree that pullups are a great exercise, I disagree with blanket statements like “pullups are far safer and more effective” than rows for a powerlifter. In some situations, maybe, in others, maybe not.
Why is rowing not going to work the same as chinups/pullups? This is anatomy and weightlifting 101. Yes, the same muscles are used, but to wildly varying degrees. The trapezius is used in chinups, the teres minor is used in the bench press… but would you ever try to build strong traps with chinups or strong external rotators with bench pressing? Of course not, and you know that. “All or nothing” is fibers, not whole muscles, and by rowing you’re going to strengthen several muscles much more quickly and effectively than by doing pullups, or gironda pullups, or towel pullups until you fall down.
[/quote]
yeah
[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
That wasn’t my point. You’re going to get a whole different perspective from guys like me that outweigh you by a hundred pounds. From where I’m sitting, pullups tear the shit out of my shoulders if I train them too often, whereas bent-over rows don’t bother anything nearly as much.
I was asking the numbers not because I give a crap how strong you are, but because that might shed some light on the subject as well. If you are a 250 pound bencher and have never done any work for your upper back, then that is an entirely different story than being a 450 pound bencher who has slaved away at bent over rows for a decade and found that the switch to chinups has had amazing results. In the first case ANY direct upper back/lat work should get your numbers to move, and in the second case it may be that your traps, rhomboids, teres major/minor, etc. are already monstrously strong and your lats were the weak link.
Also, I agree that if you are following one of the older Westside programs “to a tee” your lower back will never get a break if you’re throwing in bent over rows on your upper body days. So the CSR seems a good suggestion. Weightlifters, or at least the team I was on, use the bent over row with some cheat to build the first (and primarily the second) pull partially because of the strong lower back involvement. But this was usually done during training cycles where we weren’t going super heavy with GM’s and SLDL’s several times a week.
I don’t disagree that pullups are a great exercise, I disagree with blanket statements like “pullups are far safer and more effective” than rows for a powerlifter. In some situations, maybe, in others, maybe not.
Why is rowing not going to work the same as chinups/pullups? This is anatomy and weightlifting 101. Yes, the same muscles are used, but to wildly varying degrees. The trapezius is used in chinups, the teres minor is used in the bench press… but would you ever try to build strong traps with chinups or strong external rotators with bench pressing? Of course not, and you know that. “All or nothing” is fibers, not whole muscles, and by rowing you’re going to strengthen several muscles much more quickly and effectively than by doing pullups, or gironda pullups, or towel pullups until you fall down.
[/quote]
I used to focus solely on barbell rows, but somehow my spinal erectors would always ache from either doing squats or deadlifts to really hit my back hard, so then I followed Louie’s advice and switched to the chest supported rows.
These worked better for me than the regular rows.
Now I work out in my basement, so I don’t have access to a chest supported row machine. So I switched to pullups and chin-ups out of necessity, but I think that I stumbled on to something by doing this.
Benching has never come easy to me. For example, it took me maybe…mmmm…4 or 5 years to get close to 300 lb. raw bench. This was at a weight of 225 no less. Now at 185 I work out on a second hand bench (which I can bench less on than a pro-bench at my old gym) and weigh 185 and I cam zooming in on 300 raw. The difference in my training? Lots of chins and pull-ups. I can even feel my newfound lat strength driving the weight up.