[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
undeadlift wrote:
Just a thought on street fights. If you wanna be good at them, you’ll have to train in more classes of martial arts. A pure Muay Thai (strking) or a pure Jiujitsu (grappling) will more likely lose to a guy who knows both.
Weapons arts also have a leverage over bare-knuckle arts. An unarmed Arnis guy can disarm and stab a boxer who brought a knife.
Good point about being well rounded.
But, to be honest it is unbelievably difficult (even for a highly trained Martial artist) to disarm someone with a knife, especially someone who has the timing, distancing, and movement skills of a boxer. Trying to disarm someone with a knife in a real fight is a good way to get yourself killed. I’m not saying that it can’t be done, but it shouldn’t be the primary objective.[/quote]
Good point. Still, a weapons art will have an advantage, like when both the boxer and the Arnis guy have a knife.
[quote]wukey wrote:
Firstly i’m really pissed off because i wrote out a really good message detailing everything i wanted to say and as i submitted it i got an error message and it looks like i lost it, ah well, i guess it teaches me patients.
Well here i go again…
I want to learn a martial art, but i’d like to play to my strengths and i wondered if anyone here could recomend / point me in the right direction.
Firstly a little about what i consider my strength; I’m very well coordinated and dexterouse, and i’d say i have above average reflexes. I’m not very stronge (for this site anyway, which is why i lift) but since i’ve been weight training for 3(ish) years i’d say i’m stronger than an average person. I want to do a martial art for general fittness and conditioning. I’ve got no intension of ever getting into a fight, but it’d be nice to know i can handle myself.
My options are limeted to the types of arts they teach around where i live. Around here there are several kick boxing schools and boxing schools, but i think i’d be quite poor at these (well boxing anyway). there is a good school near here that does Lau Gar Kung Fu, which i find quite tempting. I was also really keen to look into Jeet Kun Do, but alas, there are no schools near here that teach that (that i know of).
I’m planning on doing much more research befor i choose, so please don’t assume i’m trying to get you guys to do that for me. All i want is some helpfull pointers so i know where to focus my research.
Many Thanks.[/quote]
Check out martialartsplanet.com , make sure to check out the beginner sections FAQ. You need to let people know whats beeing offered in your area first and foremost and what you’re trying to get out of your training.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
It depends on how you refine technique. If you’re talking about punching into the air with no rhyme or reason which has been done in the more traditional martial arts then no that won’t help much.
However, hitting a speed or timing bag, heavy bag etc. Sure that will help. But nothing, and I repeat NOTHING can take the place of real live sparring. And that’s why the traditional martial artists got their asses kicked by wrestlers and BJJ practitioners before there was a lot of cross training.
That and they had superior arts.
Get their asses kicked? Where? In the ring? Did you ever stop to think that maybe this is because they don’t train with rules like boxing and MMA?
It is a difficult thing for sure to get realistic training, because as you stated, nothing trains you to fight better than being in a fight (assuming you survive). But you can’t realistically train like that or you will run out of training partners. That is why traditional MA uses other techniques like Kata or other options to train with full force and still be able to preserve the trainers safety. This is where body suits and other training devices come in.
I agree.
In any case, I would contend that a well trained traditional MA practitioner would do quite well in a no-rules situation (outside the ring) against a boxer or the sport type MA.
If you recall the first 3 or 4 UFC’s had no rules. Even hair pulling and groin strikes were allowed. And what happened to the traditional martial arts guys? They got crushed.
By the way I’ve been reading the T-Nation forum for several years and I can’t think of very many things that we disagree on other than this.
[/quote]
They were “crushed” because there were in fact rules. The rules were just more lax than now. If you look into it, no eye gouging was allowed and groin kicking was allowed but cups were also allowed. Also, if you throw someone outside on the street it hurts a hell of a lot more than on a ring mat. So it still was a fairly artificial environment.
I guess my overall all point is that anytime it is a contest it is a losing scenario in terms of self defense. On the street if you have the contest mindset you could get literally killed, because guys out there don’t care about rules or fair play. They pick up whatever is handy and hit you on the head with it.
So while MMA’s maybe well adapted to the ring, I’m not sure the same techniques would be effect and wise on the street.
Ps - glad we are both extremely bright to agree most of the time:)
If you are talking about traditional Jujitsu I would agree with you. However, if you are talking about Gracie “Jujitsu” or some other ground only art, I would disagree. Gracie jujitsu doesn’t train to stay on their feet. They want to go to the ground.
So with that training background you are not going to be prepared to defend a takedown on the street. But, traditional Jujitsu trains much like Judo in that they do not want to go to the ground unless they are the ones doing the throwing.
So yes, training to throw someone is very valuable on the street as long as you don’t go down with them. That is where traditional jujitsu is much better then Gracie.
BJJ is not a ground only art, and we do train takedowns and takedown defense. I know our instructor (a Gracie) does not recommend going to your back in a fight and though we train from our backs, it is meant to prepare us for the chance we end up there (and BJJ tournaments which are sport jiu-jitsu,) not to create a desire to end up on your back during a confrontation. You have somehow misconstrued sport BJJ practices with self-defense which are two entirely different entities.
[/quote]
You could be right. The BJJ center I visited was run by a Grace trained instructor, but they did not train actual throws very much. It was mostly just ground work. Maybe it was sport BJJ, but if self defense BJJ is more realistic, that is great.
I saw this today when went to Sherdog - I don’t know why I clicked on it because I almost instantly regretted, but it kinda made me think of this thread
[quote]undeadlift wrote:
Sifu wrote:
MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT A SPORT. Americans have ruined them by treating them as sports.
Does that mean every country considering MA as a sport ruins MA?[/quote]
In the orient when they would have inter-dojo contests, it was all about dojo pride and things could get brutal. In the US the early tournaments were very rough but over the years they got watered down.
Now you have to have hand pads, foot pads, head gear, lawyers and insurance. It is hard to find a school where people fight bare knuckled.
Americans have a fixation with trophies or getting rank in a short period of time. That is why you see mcdojo’s that guarantee you a black belt in a year or two.
where some of the master rank black belts are under 18.
Katas have devolved into a flashy aerial ballet with difficult flashy gymnastic moves that are intended to garner points at tournaments to get the all important trophies. The old traditional katas were meant to teach. There are a lot of joint locking and takedown moves in traditional forms which don’t look all that impressive, but they are more effective than spinning around three or four times parallel to the ground.
This is why people knock traditional arts and are so infatuated with MMA. A lot of people don’t realize that traditionally the traditional arts were very rough.
On Okinawa in the Naha redlight district they used to have bare knuckles fights where it wasn’t unusual for someone to die.
Another thing a lot of people don’t realize about traditional arts like Okinawan karate is that traditionally the Okinawan karate masters not only did the various forms of karate but they also practiced a grappling art called Tegumi.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
undeadlift wrote:
Sifu wrote:
MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT A SPORT. Americans have ruined them by treating them as sports.
Does that mean every country considering MA as a sport ruins MA?
In the orient when they would have inter-dojo contests, it was all about dojo pride and things could get brutal. In the US the early tournaments were very rough but over the years they got watered down.
Now you have to have hand pads, foot pads, head gear, lawyers and insurance. It is hard to find a school where people fight bare knuckled.
Americans have a fixation with trophies or getting rank in a short period of time. That is why you see mcdojo’s that guarantee you a black belt in a year or two.
where some of the master rank black belts are under 18.
Katas have devolved into a flashy aerial ballet with difficult flashy gymnastic moves that are intended to garner points at tournaments to get the all important trophies. The old traditional katas were meant to teach. There are a lot of joint locking and takedown moves in traditional forms which don’t look all that impressive, but they are more effective than spinning around three or four times parallel to the ground.
This is why people knock traditional arts and are so infatuated with MMA. A lot of people don’t realize that traditionally the traditional arts were very rough.
On Okinawa in the Naha redlight district they used to have bare knuckles fights where it wasn’t unusual for someone to die.
Another thing a lot of people don’t realize about traditional arts like Okinawan karate is that traditionally the Okinawan karate masters not only did the various forms of karate but they also practiced a grappling art called Tegumi.[/quote]
Good post man.
The reason I enjoy Okinawan karate is for the katas, and the methodical way of teaching. It is ground up, and slowly the joint locks are worked in, etc. These are worked over and over again in the katas, which to me seem like the most invaluable training tool there is, for you can drill anywhere and keep the basic ideals the same.
To me it seems that the goal of that specific art is to put you down in three or four moves. If the guy is still breathing, then you did something wrong.
Not too mention, taking throat shots of goju-ryu is taking quite a bit from the arsenal- after a block or parry, the first move many times is to sweep up the arm and to the throat, or at least jab it with a ridged hand. I cannot see making it a sport for “points” when the “point” of the fucking thing is to kill someone.
One of the things that you will find with the Okinawan katas is that they contain moves that are universal to many styles of martial arts. For example when I started learning Wing Chun kung fu I quickly realized that their forms had moves that were in the Okinawan katas, but they had interpretations that I liked more than some of the Okinawan ones. Just a few of them opened up a whole new world of possibilities that I applied to all my katas. Forms can be a great facilitator of learning.
Also when I am learning a different style quite often I can equate a move that I just learned to a move in a kata which makes it a lot easier to remember techniques.
Another thing I have found is that there are some moves that twenty years ago I couldn’t make the work, but by constantly revisiting them through kata practice now I am able to make them work.
That is the way things work in martial arts. Some things you are not going to learn them in five minutes then go beat the hell out of people.
This is one of the ways that sport hurts the martial arts. People are looking for the one minute quick fix technique that they can go out and compete with right away, while at the same time discarding a whole body of knowledge because it requires dedication and perseverance.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
One of the things that you will find with the Okinawan katas is that they contain moves that are universal to many styles of martial arts. For example when I started learning Wing Chun kung fu I quickly realized that their forms had moves that were in the Okinawan katas, but they had interpretations that I liked more than some of the Okinawan ones. Just a few of them opened up a whole new world of possibilities that I applied to all my katas. Forms can be a great facilitator of learning.
Also when I am learning a different style quite often I can equate a move that I just learned to a move in a kata which makes it a lot easier to remember techniques.
Another thing I have found is that there are some moves that twenty years ago I couldn’t make the work, but by constantly revisiting them through kata practice now I am able to make them work.
That is the way things work in martial arts. Some things you are not going to learn them in five minutes then go beat the hell out of people.
This is one of the ways that sport hurts the martial arts. People are looking for the one minute quick fix technique that they can go out and compete with right away, while at the same time discarding a whole body of knowledge because it requires dedication and perseverance.
[/quote]
I agree with you in terms of supporting the art as a discipline. However, the reason sport MA discards most of the other pieces is for two reasons; 1) they cannot be quickly learned and are not intuitive to normal human reaction, and 2) they are two complete and cannot be effectively utilized in an actual encounter.
I personally believe that perfecting moves over time is the best way to go. So I do believe that sport MA hurts traditional MA in this manner, as you stated. However, the second issue is a fault with most traditional MA. In an actual encounter you do not have time to think or decide what move you are going to use. It has to be an automatic reaction or you will loose. And it is very difficult to train into your nervous system complex moves and have them work during a fight.
The reason is that during a fight your nervous system kicks into the fight/flight survival mode. This causes tunnel vision and a number of other physiological effects that significantly reduce your ability to complete complex tasks. So only the most basic of movements will work during this situation.
That is why basic intuitive moves that fit with a persons normal reactions are the most effective in a real encounter.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Sifu wrote:
One of the things that you will find with the Okinawan katas is that they contain moves that are universal to many styles of martial arts. For example when I started learning Wing Chun kung fu I quickly realized that their forms had moves that were in the Okinawan katas, but they had interpretations that I liked more than some of the Okinawan ones. Just a few of them opened up a whole new world of possibilities that I applied to all my katas. Forms can be a great facilitator of learning.
Also when I am learning a different style quite often I can equate a move that I just learned to a move in a kata which makes it a lot easier to remember techniques.
Another thing I have found is that there are some moves that twenty years ago I couldn’t make the work, but by constantly revisiting them through kata practice now I am able to make them work.
That is the way things work in martial arts. Some things you are not going to learn them in five minutes then go beat the hell out of people.
This is one of the ways that sport hurts the martial arts. People are looking for the one minute quick fix technique that they can go out and compete with right away, while at the same time discarding a whole body of knowledge because it requires dedication and perseverance.
I agree with you in terms of supporting the art as a discipline. However, the reason sport MA discards most of the other pieces is for two reasons; 1) they cannot be quickly learned and are not intuitive to normal human reaction, and 2) they are two complete and cannot be effectively utilized in an actual encounter.
I personally believe that perfecting moves over time is the best way to go. So I do believe that sport MA hurts traditional MA in this manner, as you stated. However, the second issue is a fault with most traditional MA. In an actual encounter you do not have time to think or decide what move you are going to use. It has to be an automatic reaction or you will loose. And it is very difficult to train into your nervous system complex moves and have them work during a fight.
[/quote]
Bullshit. The moves are not that complex- they are often flicks of the wrist or moving a certain way, and that comes with practice. You would be surprised exactly what becomes completely involuntary- it’s already happened where a friend of mine grabbed me by the arm, caught me off guard, and I twisted over his arm with my hand, grabbed his wrist, and pulled him forward. If that’s a fight, he gets clocked. And I haven’t been doing this shit that long.
They fit well if you’re training for three months and want to jump in the Octagon. Like Krav Magra- simply and effective, and made to teach large number of people and then ship them to a battlefield.
However, the main part of TMA is getting rid of that fight or flight mechanism, and teaching yourself to remain calm so you are not struck by tunnel vision. Not only that, but as I said, your training becomes your natural reaction, hence nullifying the immediate instinct to throw an overhead haymaker.
Throwing a double jab 2-3-2 is not a natural reaction, nor is getting someone in a guard and then flipping them into an armbar. No matter what martial art, the training must be constant to have it matter. You can know all the moves in the world, but if you don’t have the prescence of mind to apply them, you are fucked. Hence where the katas come from- your technique will be good from practicing over and over, and you are so used to seeing shit coming at you that it’s second nature.
Martial arts is about countering your instincts and making yourself a better fighter, not about indulging your tunnel vision.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Bullshit. The moves are not that complex- they are often flicks of the wrist or moving a certain way, and that comes with practice. You would be surprised exactly what becomes completely involuntary- it’s already happened where a friend of mine grabbed me by the arm, caught me off guard, and I twisted over his arm with my hand, grabbed his wrist, and pulled him forward. If that’s a fight, he gets clocked. And I haven’t been doing this shit that long.
[/quote]
Not sure what moves you are talking about sport. But my point was that less complex moves work better. So if your moves are not that complex, great. And make no mistake, in a real situation you will have no time to decide what move to do. It better be automatic and brutal or you will end up in the hospital.
Sounds to me like you have never been in a situation that you feared for your life, or possibly never even been in a fight. In either case, the fact is that it is difficult to train in a dojo to control the fight or flight (F/F). The reason is that you have to have fear to be able to practice; no fear no practice. So in other words, if you are not afraid in the dojo you cannot learn to control your fear on the street.
Now if you go to downtown Harlem and start yelling the “N” word at the large group of black guys standing on the corner, and then practice your moves as they try and beat you down; THAT is practice the will help you control the F/F. Other than that you are just kidding yourself.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Bullshit. The moves are not that complex- they are often flicks of the wrist or moving a certain way, and that comes with practice. You would be surprised exactly what becomes completely involuntary- it’s already happened where a friend of mine grabbed me by the arm, caught me off guard, and I twisted over his arm with my hand, grabbed his wrist, and pulled him forward. If that’s a fight, he gets clocked. And I haven’t been doing this shit that long.
Not sure what moves you are talking about sport. But my point was that less complex moves work better. So if your moves are not that complex, great. And make no mistake, in a real situation you will have no time to decide what move to do. It better be automatic and brutal or you will end up in the hospital.
[/quote]
No, what I’m saying is that the moves themselves are not that complex, but that they are unknown and useless if you don’t practice the shit out of them.
For example, you get into a fight with a guy with a baseball bat. You close the distance, grab the bat… and then what? Well, if you train in the art I do, you’re taught to always twist against the thumb. So you do that instinctively, because that’s what you’re taught, and you’ve got the bat. Same thing with the arm, wrist, etc. It’s not that they’re difficult, it’s just that you have to know what you’re doing in order to make it effective. It comes down to a flick of the wrist, or rotating something in a certain way, simple things… but you still have to practice.
My fucking balls. I’ve seen plenty of shit, nothing that I have to prove onfuckingline. Regardless, you didn’t address any point I made in my post. Beating a boxer in a streetfight is tough because they are conditioned to do what they do. Same thing with any martial art. You get conditioned to react a certain way. You just told me that you can’t learn that. Bullshit.
A boxer learns to hit in combos, accurately. A judo guy looks for a throw, an Aikodoist looks to grab and toss, a Tai Chi guy looks to lead you into a wall, and a goju ryu guy looks to trap you and hit you. None work better than the others, but the point is that you become conditioned so that instead of thinking, “Oh shit, I need to fight like a fucktard, throw off balance blows, and try to tackle them because that’s what happens”, you learn to backup, parry a shot, and smack them a couple good ones.
Methinks you haven’t trained in many arts, or any arts. But then I remember you from the political forum, so I know you talk out your ass alot. You addressed the point you thought you could get me on, and completely ignored the rest of my post. On this subject though, thunderbolt ain’t here to save you boyo. You are dead wrong.
Lorisco I didn’t say that complex moves were better than simpler ones. The primary system I came up in is all about simplified moves. ie our punches use a near vertical fist instead of a cork screw.
There are moves that are no more difficult than what one would do instinctively. ie most people will step backwards when someone comes at them or throws something at them like a kick, you see it in sports martial arts all the time. This might move you out of range but it leaves you vulnerable to getting run over and you can’t counter strike. Moving forward at an angle is not instinctive and it is no more complicated than stepping back , but it will also get you out of the way of an attack while closing with your opponenet so you can counter attack.
One of the best ways to overcome fear is to fight in the dojo and do it with some intensity. If you have trained in a fighting school a street confrontation is less intimidating. Also going to some tournaments can be a good expeience if you are facing off with someone who you have never seen before instead of our friends form school. Of course these aren’t a complete substitute but they can help.
So there is some merit to sports and I am not totally against them. What I am against is the lack of perspective that a lot of people have picked up on.
Something that helps with tunnel vision that we do in our dojo is we all fight our sparring partners as a group. There isn’t a lot of room so you have to be careful in case someone comes flying your way or even gets in your way so you trip over them, which is another reason not to move backwards.
Dude, I agree with repetitive training. I also agree in the idea that your reactions take over in fight. However, my point was that you must learn to control your fear our your reactions don’t work. Well, they work, just not very well. For example, this idea has been tested with a group of Karate practitioners. In a fearful situation they did react in defense, but their reactions were not effective. In other words, they punched, but missed, etc. They had not trained to hit someone with full force. They had trained pulling their blows. So in an actual fight their depth perception was off.
So I agree with most of what you stated. Just that for reaction training to be effective it cannot be Kata or anything that does not allow for full force practice.
Ps - in the future keep your ball out of it. I prefer to not have the image in my mind!
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Lorisco I didn’t say that complex moves were better than simpler ones. The primary system I came up in is all about simplified moves. ie our punches use a near vertical fist instead of a cork screw.
There are moves that are no more difficult than what one would do instinctively. ie most people will step backwards when someone comes at them or throws something at them like a kick, you see it in sports martial arts all the time. This might move you out of range but it leaves you vulnerable to getting run over and you can’t counter strike. Moving forward at an angle is not instinctive and it is no more complicated than stepping back , but it will also get you out of the way of an attack while closing with your opponenet so you can counter attack.
One of the best ways to overcome fear is to fight in the dojo and do it with some intensity. If you have trained in a fighting school a street confrontation is less intimidating. Also going to some tournaments can be a good expeience if you are facing off with someone who you have never seen before instead of our friends form school. Of course these aren’t a complete substitute but they can help.
So there is some merit to sports and I am not totally against them. What I am against is the lack of perspective that a lot of people have picked up on.
Something that helps with tunnel vision that we do in our dojo is we all fight our sparring partners as a group. There isn’t a lot of room so you have to be careful in case someone comes flying your way or even gets in your way so you trip over them, which is another reason not to move backwards. [/quote]
Sounds like your school has addressed most of the problems with traditional MA training systems.
Dude, I agree with repetitive training. I also agree in the idea that your reactions take over in fight. However, my point was that you must learn to control your fear our your reactions don’t work. Well, they work, just not very well. For example, this idea has been tested with a group of Karate practitioners. In a fearful situation they did react in defense, but their reactions were not effective. In other words, they punched, but missed, etc. They had not trained to hit someone with full force. They had trained pulling their blows. So in an actual fight their depth perception was off.
[/quote]
I can agree with that. That’s why I always hated tournaments- it is stupid to “spar” with someone else with the type of art I train in. If it’s meant to fucking kill, don’t tell me I can’t hit someone in the face and have to pull my punches. That’s why I box also- there isn’t enough work on hitting moving targets for my liking in Gojuryu. However, the defensive tactics and standing grappling moves are priceless.
I disagree. It’s the same reason why boxers shadow box- you begin to become fluid in the movements, and it becomes natural to follow a jab with a lead hook. It’s not as good as using a heavy bag, but it will reinforce the movement patterns. And repetition is what makes any martial art work.