Sento yes you have been civil. So I will try to be more diplomatic. If I am being a tool it is because I have lost patience with the mentality on this board that sports is all there is.
Sport karate is why you see so many mcdojo’s where people can’t defend temselves.
MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT A SPORT. Americans have ruined them by treating them as sports.
So this boards preoccupation with sports competitions gets a little old.
If it is any consolation Sento you are one of the three people on this board who I was fairly certain had actual martial arts experience and knew what they were talking about. But you have left me wondering.
There is a time and place for fighting and resisting. Usually when someone is teaching and you are there to assist it is not the time to fully resist and fight them. Unless of course they want you to.
If you are a junior student sometimes you are going to get thrown around so the rest of the class can see what something looks like. I would like to point out that just because you let someone do something to you that doesn’t mean they couldn’t set it up in a real fight or even do something totally different.
Free fighting someone and trying to get one particular technique in on them is difficult unless they have a bad habit of leaving themself open for something. To try and do that in a class setting will waste a huge amount of time.
There are a lot of techniques where if you don’t go with the technique or try to fight it you can get seriously injured. Joint locks are a good example of that. If someone locks out your elbow and you don’t go with the technique you can get your arm broken.
Learning how to roll with techniques when you are on the recieving end can be just as important as how to deliver them.
The whole reason why I put the Shuai Chiao throws video up was in an effort to keep the sports weenies form spouting off the same old tired lie about how MMA is the only martial art in the world where people ever make any contact. I was trying to show that traditional styles can be quite rough also. That they aren’t all dancing and playing games.
Traditionally martial arts were exclusively self defensive arts. They were not meant to be sports. Frankly I think that was a good tradition. If you train in martial arts and can’t defend yourself you are wasting your time.
I think this has got to make the top five topics that constantly get new threads every 3 or 4 months, and probably part of the reason we haven’t gotten an mma section in the forums.
This age-old debate is getting more and more ridiculous. Grappler vs Striker…streetfighter vs ring fighter. At this point, I’ve come to the conclusion that it is the individual and not the art that makes the difference. I love to bash Tae Kwon Do, but I’ll admit I’ve had my ass absolutely handed to me in a sparring session by a guy whose base was TKD-granted he trained boxing too, but his kicks were a big part of his repetoire.
I personally disagree with the assessment about wrestlers being outclassed by boxers in the street, it really isn’t that hard to avoid getting knocked out while you wade into the clinch and, if the boxer is untrained in grappling, it will be pretty hard to slip and roll while his ass is planted on the ground. Throw in the way most boxers tend to lean forward when they slip and roll and you’ve got a dude that is begging to have someone make a highlight reel out of him by throwing a knee. If you really want to know if your style is the best for a streetfight, you should probably go out and find the biggest, baddest dude in the bar and pick a fight with him, other than that we’re just arguing hypotheticals.
[quote]
I personally disagree with the assessment about wrestlers being outclassed by boxers in the street, it really isn’t that hard to avoid getting knocked out while you wade into the clinch and, if the boxer is untrained in grappling, it will be pretty hard to slip and roll while his ass is planted on the ground. Throw in the way most boxers tend to lean forward when they slip and roll and you’ve got a dude that is begging to have someone make a highlight reel out of him by throwing a knee. If you really want to know if your style is the best for a streetfight, you should probably go out and find the biggest, baddest dude in the bar and pick a fight with him, other than that we’re just arguing hypotheticals.[/quote]
Really, I think arguments like this are f%ing retarded. I train boxing and wrestling. In a boxing gym, you have slobs that aint worth a dime who walk in hit the bag and leave. WOAH BIG DEAL. Also, among boxer’s training methods are archaic.
The reasons why I belive Wrestler’s to be La Creme de La Creme of the MA world is that wrestling has high standards both physical mental and spiritual unlike the other arts. Wrestling is an exclusive MA, it isn’t for Vegan Muscleheads who want tolearn the mystical kick of the shaolin and do classes. Wrestling unlike the other MAs, and pseudo budo bullshit, does not make a big fluff about dragon lore and mystical energy. It doesn’t speak on the subject, instead, it just makes it a REQUIREMENT.
While it comes down the fighter, Wrestler’s always have a distinctive advantage over other fighters in that.
Our art required you to be
Competitive from day 1
Rely on yourself for you own development
Is not a profiteering Asian based pyramid scheme.
Demands physical conditioning of the highest caliber.
Breeds utmost concentration, it is the dance of stoicism.
Skills wise and techniques wise, builds an absolutely essential power base.
Has rigorous standards on all practitioners, should you not perform, you will simply cease to be a part of an organized wrestling association.
Wrestler’s don’t lack in striking skills because they are wrestler’s, its harder to feel a wrestler through strikes than it is many other martial artists. Why? Because we train for real, we don’t do bullshit tai chi movements and the like, we actually train, full speed, full contact all the time, a wrestler will not be stunned by a tkd or a punch, as he isn’t stunned by anything that happens on the mat.
The other thing I want to address is.
[quote]Sport karate is why you see so many mcdojo’s where people can’t defend temselves.
MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT A SPORT. Americans have ruined them by treating them as sports. [/quote]
Dude why don’t you go give buddha a hand job. American’s have not ruined Martial Arts at all, we have further the fields of Gymnastics, boxing and Wrestling. We are reknown for those martial arts, and yes they are all martial arts.
American’s didn’t decide to come out with all the bullshit, what happened was American gis in Japan, Korea, learned martial arts, and brought it back. We learned it, THERE WAY. It was not the Americans who came back and tchanged stuff up and started profiteering. It was the Asians seeing the interest that the American taught students generated in the West who came with the specific intention to make money. Most notably, with TKD, but also in Karate. You’ll notice things American extensions of Asians arts like American Kenpo have very strict standards and are not interested in profiteering, seen in Asian based schools most horrendously in TKD.
–
Honestly, this thread is annoying, it just a bunch of internet gangsters talkign crap about stuff they don’t even know about.
Hypotheticals on boxers vs ninjas, and wrestlers vs jiujitsu ka, and the need for rolls and counter punches in this illustrious street fight.
All martial arts techniques have value, all martial arts have good stuff. The main distinguising feature tho of why MA discussion is worthy or not. Is how much of it is is theory and how of it is practice. You’ll find thesen kind of dumbass discussions like these at Asian dojos that teach mega kicks and bs, while at boxing gyms and wrestilng clubs. We just train, we don’t waste our brain energy on dumb shyt like this.
All these arts have value, I respect any art, that is a part of the general puprose of martial arts.
Which is th ebetterment of the individual.
But it cannot be denied that some arts, simply have a better history in demonstrable practice than others. While other drink their own bath water and shoot of theory.
People who downgrade boxing, wrestling, and glorify Karate and Kung Fu, are foolish. You can see the results and abilities of the first two in actual competition, while Kung Fu, or excuse me San Da, has yet to be seen, as viable practical, or acceptable in any sort of gladiatoresque competition. Many of these arts get so into their own theory bullshit, that it became a bunch of delirious monks getting into some kind of feverish yellow neurosis on how they would develop some kind of super fighting technique to best the other baldie. OMG I HAVE START FIGHT LIKE MONKEY SO I NOW I BET TENSHIN WHO WHO WALK ON TWO LEGS AND WITH ONE ARM IN AIR LIKE SCORPION.
That is not to say these arts are totally lost, but even the Chinese government has dismissed traditional kung fu as bullshit and create a new martial art based off the most worthy concepts. Sanshou, which ironically…is a hybrid of kick boxing and wrestling.
As for people saying bjj and wrestling is ineffective for training for street fighting.
Bjj and Wrestling while often ended up on the ground, have alot more to offer than hetero man grabbing rage. BJJ, Wrestling, Sambo teached ways to manipulate joints, and share some moves with Aikido, Aikijitsu and Many with judo. There are standing controls in and also take downs that just involve joint locks from a standing to position to drop the oppponent on to the ground.
No, bjj and wrestling do not concentrate on these aspects. But Wrestling and related styles are the most effective training method to gain proficiency in martial arts beause they build the base need for both striking, grappling, evasion, and physical fitness.
The abilities you gain in wrestling, just on how to move your body, switch levels, avoid grabs at the head, and legs translate over into all aspects of other martial arts. I will admit that our training style does not benefit itself to kicking, but that’s another story.
At the end of the day, when we talk about this illustrious street fight. It is stupid, as no art truly trains for “street fighting” in the sense that, to truly train for no rules encounters, your better off just building a bunker, staying home or buying a gun.
Arts like Krav Maga and the like are more about civilian to police or person to person evasion and control. Aikido is about avoidance and deflection, avoiding conflict.
The idea is, to find an art, that lets you know your body the best and thus allows you to best develop your own abilities.
I think Joe Frazier (famous karetka, not the boxer said it best, when asked, what style of karate he favored.
He was reknown in competition as a legend and one of the best in the world, and when asked about what style of Karate he favored. He looked suprised by the question and said something to the effect of “Damn…I dunno…it all just kind of seems like kicking and punching to me.”
LOL. I agree with that, its all just kickign and punching.
[quote]Birdman31 wrote:
I dont understand why you’d pick up a martial art for purely cardio/conditioning purposes. If you’re going to pick up a MA, you might as well pick something that has a practical value. Probably the most street-practical thing I know of is Israeli Krav Maga.
[/quote]
I share your point of view.
Krav Maga is the best choise for street-wise
Also BJJ or valetudo can be a nice choice…
Just hair splitting, but this was the point I was trying to refute. Oriental martial arts may have been exclusively self defensive. On the other hand Western martial arts, from pankration, to boxing, to fencing, all tried to combine competition with teaching pragmatic combat skills.
I am not surprised this tradition and attitude has enjoyed a ressurection in the US and some other western countries, and I’m glad it has.
Sikkario I can’t give Buddha a handjob because your head is in the way.
Martial means military. Martial art means military art. Gymnastics is not a military art.
Slimjim I can think of quite a few reasons why there isn’t an mma forum.
I think it would open the door for a whole lot of other forums and the site would get too subdivided.
Then there is the whole liability issue.
Probably more than anything else though I would have to say the delightful personalities of most of the MMA crowd on this board.
If I was going to sum it up in one word it would all come down to Respect. MMA people have no respect. That is why with a few exceptions most of the MMA people on this board turn any martial arts discussion into a my stle is better than your style pissing match.
The people with a traditional background don’t talk anywhere as much shit about each others styles as the MMA people. Look at this thread, I have talked trash about Sentoguy but I haven’t talked trash about Sento Jitsu or whatever style it is he studies.
Why on earth would they give a bunch of rude, disrespectful, insecure, egostistical assholes their own forum.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
texasguy2 wrote:
IMO, go with some form of grappling. The striking arts are fun and look flashy but are way too one dimensional. 95% of all fights wind up on the ground anyways, so if you can learn to take a punch, take people down and control ground action, you will win almost every time.
Watch the old school UFCs on video. For the most part, the old school fighters were trained in one discipline or another with out much cross training.
With the exception of lucky punches, grapplers usually won. Even if they lost, they controlled the fight the entire time, only to be caught with an unlucky flying knee or some shit.
You are absolutely correct if you are talking about a controlled “fight” that has rules, etc. In that case grappling is king. However, from a realistic street defense perspective, you do not want to be caught dead on the ground. When you are on the ground you are limited in movement and can not readily run if needed. In this case, grappling will get you killed. All you need is to be wrestling with some guy on the street and then he stabs you with the knife he had in his pocket because you could not move out of the way, or worse yet, his buddy comes up and stabs you or worse.
Grappling is a good “contest” art, but very dangerous as a realistic self-defense art. So if all you want is exercise, then it doesn’t really matter. But if you want a street-safe martial art you need to select an art that keeps you on the offensive(not waiting to get hit) and keeps your ass off the ground.
You bring up some good points Lorisco. But, who would you say would have a better chance of keeping the fight on the feet (preventing the opponent from taking the fight to the ground) someone who constantly practices defending takedowns against other highly skilled takedown artists (like a wrestler for example), or someone who trains in a primarily striking context (boxer/kickboxer)?
My money would be on the first guy.[/quote]
If you are talking about traditional Jujitsu I would agree with you. However, if you are talking about Gracie “Jujitsu” or some other ground only art, I would disagree. Gracie jujitsu doesn’t train to stay on their feet. They want to go to the ground.
So with that training background you are not going to be prepared to defend a takedown on the street. But, traditional Jujitsu trains much like Judo in that they do not want to go to the ground unless they are the ones doing the throwing.
So yes, training to throw someone is very valuable on the street as long as you don’t go down with them. That is where traditional jujitsu is much better then Gracie.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
It depends on how you refine technique. If you’re talking about punching into the air with no rhyme or reason which has been done in the more traditional martial arts then no that won’t help much.
However, hitting a speed or timing bag, heavy bag etc. Sure that will help. But nothing, and I repeat NOTHING can take the place of real live sparring. And that’s why the traditional martial artists got their asses kicked by wrestlers and BJJ practitioners before there was a lot of cross training.
That and they had superior arts.
[/quote]
Get their asses kicked? Where? In the ring? Did you ever stop to think that maybe this is because they don’t train with rules like boxing and MMA?
It is a difficult thing for sure to get realistic training, because as you stated, nothing trains you to fight better than being in a fight (assuming you survive). But you can’t realistically train like that or you will run out of training partners. That is why traditional MA uses other techniques like Kata or other options to train with full force and still be able to preserve the trainers safety. This is where body suits and other training devices come in.
In any case, I would contend that a well trained traditional MA practitioner would do quite well in a no-rules situation (outside the ring) against a boxer or the sport type MA.
One is not superior to the others. They are meant for different things in different places. Maybe the work better in the Octagon, but on the street, that bet is off
Really?
I’m not trying to question your own personal experiences.
But, my own experiences tell me otherwise. I’ve seen dozens of street fights where it ends up on the ground with the better grappler punching the shit out of his opponent.
And what about the Gracies? It seems that they’ve been through hundreds and hundreds of street fights. And according to them it usually ends up on the ground with the better grappler winning.
[/quote]
I’ll stick to my guns about liking striking better than grappling. Being on the ground is just too fucking dangerous to me. Gracie… well, I don’t know much about his fights, but all I can say is the same as I’ve said- grappling brings people close to you, which opens the door for knives and maimers to your throat, eyes, and ears, and it takes place on the ground, where you can hit your head on shit and get kicked in the teeth by someone else. I’d prefer to stay standing so I can boogey out of there as soon as I can.
I hear you. I’m not trying to slam anything. The style I train the most involves strikes combined with traps and locks, but it has no ground fighting… so I work out with a guy who knows how to do that stuff. I also box because it’s just very natural to me, and I enjoy it the most. The formal martial arts have improved my nonformal training greatly by letting me throw balanced, grounded blows, and increasing my hand speed and reflexes.
It all works together… I slam no style, being as they’re all very similar to each other in many ways. However, I just don’t like the new fad that BJJ is the be all end all of fighting… the shit just don’t work like that.
If you are talking about traditional Jujitsu I would agree with you. However, if you are talking about Gracie “Jujitsu” or some other ground only art, I would disagree. Gracie jujitsu doesn’t train to stay on their feet. They want to go to the ground.
So with that training background you are not going to be prepared to defend a takedown on the street. But, traditional Jujitsu trains much like Judo in that they do not want to go to the ground unless they are the ones doing the throwing.
So yes, training to throw someone is very valuable on the street as long as you don’t go down with them. That is where traditional jujitsu is much better then Gracie.
[/quote]
BJJ is not a ground only art, and we do train takedowns and takedown defense. I know our instructor (a Gracie) does not recommend going to your back in a fight and though we train from our backs, it is meant to prepare us for the chance we end up there (and BJJ tournaments which are sport jiu-jitsu,) not to create a desire to end up on your back during a confrontation. You have somehow misconstrued sport BJJ practices with self-defense which are two entirely different entities.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Sento yes you have been civil. So I will try to be more diplomatic. If I am being a tool it is because I have lost patience with the mentality on this board that sports is all there is.
Sport karate is why you see so many mcdojo’s where people can’t defend temselves.
MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT A SPORT. Americans have ruined them by treating them as sports.
So this boards preoccupation with sports competitions gets a little old.
[/quote]
Honestly I understand where you’re coming from. I personally prefer to train for actual combat (though in my case that does involve training in more “sport” oriented arts as well as other “realistic” aspects). But, the original topic of this thread was about martial arts specifically as a method of conditioning. So, I put aside my personal bias and tried to answer Wukey’s question the best I could.
My argument with your post(s) was primarily based on the fact that you hadn’t seemed to put aside your personal bias and were trying to convince Wukey that “more” traditional arts were a better way to go. Now, I’m not going to argue styles anymore as obviously it’s a matter of opinion and personal experience. But, I’m still going to hold to my original assertion that while the arts that you suggested certainly have their value, they might not be the best option purely from a conditioning perspective.
Yes, I realize that I got into the whole “theoretical vs tested” argument (which was probably not helpful on my part), and that this probably went a long way to adding fuel to the fire so to speak. In retrospect this probably wasn’t the best move on my part. So, I apologize if I insulted something that means a lot to you.
Well, honestly I know who I’ve trained with and what I’ve been through. I know that I earned every rank that I achieved and I’m fairly confident in my ability to defend myself. So, while your remarks about my lack of knowledge or training did piss me off a little, I’m confident in myself and really try not to let that kind of stuff get to me. No hard feelings.
Yes, of course you’re right. It’s just that most of the “good” (I put that in quotes because that’s my opinion) demos that I’ve seen involve varying levels of resistance. I’d agree though that unless asked you shouldn’t try to resist and fight back when helping someone demonstrate something.
My point about resistance was more in regards to arts testing their techniques (sparring) in a realistic way. I also really dislike a lot of the “attacks” that many TMA’s practice defenses against. Seriously, unless you happen to get into a fight with another aikidoka, what are the chances of someone attacking you with a big, wide, telegraphed “karate chop” to the head? Probably not very good right? Yet Aikido still regularly practices defenses against that attack.
Once again I agree. But, just because someone can do something to you if you let them, also doesn’t mean that they can set it up in a real fight either. Really all it means (in and of itself) is that the person can do the technique in that context.
Well, I personally wouldn’t call that a waste of time. I’m personally a big fan of trying to isolate a specific technique/strategy during sparring. It’s even better if you tell them what you’re trying to do. If you can still pull it off (even 60% of the time is impressive) then that shows true mastery of that technique/strategy.
Also, you’ll most likely have no problem what so ever pulling off the technique/strategy against someone who doesn’t know you’re doing to do it, or how to defend against it (which will be the case in most real fights).
I hear you. And once again I agree. Certain joint locks/throws (kotegaeshi in aikido for example) will definitely break the joint if the uke doesn’t go with them. Also, knowing how to breakfall/roll is an extremely beneficial skill, regardless of art.
That said, many joint locks/throws are also defendable and can be resisted if you know what you’re doing.
Once again I have a lot of respect for Shuai Chiao. Cheng Tung Sheng was a tough dude. I recall reading a story in which he basically tooled on an entire tournament’s worth of judo practitioners. So, don’t think that I wouldn’t have jumped at the chance to train with him. My comment on the video was more so that demonstrations like that aren’t great methods of showing an arts effectiveness.
[quote]
Traditionally martial arts were exclusively self defensive arts. They were not meant to be sports. Frankly I think that was a good tradition. If you train in martial arts and can’t defend yourself you are wasting your time. [/quote]
I like martial arts as self defense as well. But sport arts have also gone a long way to continuing to progress the arts and validify their effectiveness. Let’s face it, you really can’t actually practice combat. That would lead to people winding up in the morgue/hospital every single class and people winding up in jail as well. You’ve got to impliment some rules in order to be able to survive the training. Sport competitions basically allow their competitors to test their techniques in a relatively safe environment. So, I personally see quite a good deal of benefit to the “sport” arts.
Also, like you said before, a lot of those guys are physical specimens and would most likely destroy the average person in an actual fight. Sure, they would need to train to use/defend against weapons, and other arsenals that aren’t addressed in MMA, etc… But their athleticism, conditioning, mental and physical toughness and experience would allow them to do quite well in most actual combative situations.
If I was going to sum it up in one word it would all come down to Respect. MMA people have no respect. That is why with a few exceptions most of the MMA people on this board turn any martial arts discussion into a my stle is better than your style pissing match.
[/quote]
[quote] Sifu then wrote:
The people with a traditional background don’t talk anywhere as much shit about each others styles as the MMA people. Look at this thread, I have talked trash about Sentoguy but I haven’t talked trash about Sento Jitsu or whatever style it is he studies.
[/quote]
Wait, so first you say that MMA people have no respect, then you say that you talked trash about me, but not the style I train in? Do you honestly believe that talking trash about a person is any more respectful than talking trash about the art they train in?
Just for the record, I haven’t talked trash about you or your style. I’ve mentioned my opinion that I don’t like schools/teachers who don’t test their techniques, but I haven’t come out and said that any one particular style was a load of crap. I also didn’t say anything derogatory or insulting towards you until you provoked it with several unnecessary insults to my knowledge and ability.
Honestly I agree with you that there are some MMA guys who lack respect, but there are also plenty of TMA guys who do as well. You can’t judge a person’s level of respect by what art they study. That’s a matter of the individual.
Just a thought on street fights. If you wanna be good at them, you’ll have to train in more classes of martial arts. A pure Muay Thai (strking) or a pure Jiujitsu (grappling) will more likely lose to a guy who knows both.
Weapons arts also have a leverage over bare-knuckle arts. An unarmed Arnis guy can disarm and stab a boxer who brought a knife.
which martial art uses the most hip and leg power? I might look into it since I need those muscles being utilized for throwing, also if it could help with coordination be cool.
[quote]undeadlift wrote:
Just a thought on street fights. If you wanna be good at them, you’ll have to train in more classes of martial arts. A pure Muay Thai (strking) or a pure Jiujitsu (grappling) will more likely lose to a guy who knows both.
Weapons arts also have a leverage over bare-knuckle arts. An unarmed Arnis guy can disarm and stab a boxer who brought a knife.[/quote]
Good point about being well rounded.
But, to be honest it is unbelievably difficult (even for a highly trained Martial artist) to disarm someone with a knife, especially someone who has the timing, distancing, and movement skills of a boxer. Trying to disarm someone with a knife in a real fight is a good way to get yourself killed. I’m not saying that it can’t be done, but it shouldn’t be the primary objective.