Liv92 asked: “I just finished my first week (lol) of my first cycle using the Triumvirate. I was wondering on Bench press days I want to do Kroc Rows instead of regular DB rows… Should I still be using 5 sets cause kroc rows are a diff beast then regular DB rows. What do you guys think?”
I think Kroc once suggested that if you are not rowing the biggest dumbbell you have access to for high reps, then just keep trying to increase working with the heaviest you can for sets of 15. That said, what I personally do is a set of 5 db rows after each set of bench, working up in weight to a heavy 6th set for max reps. I haven’t programmed it exactly like 5/3/1, but it parallels it in that I use a lighter weight for higher reps on the 5 week and so on. When I can do 20 with the heaviest dumbbell I’ll have to figure out a different way to program it maybe.[/quote]
I would do 1 or at most 2 sets of Kroc rows for 15+ reps on the first set and trying to get 10 on the second, OR do 3 x 5 and then one set to failure.
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
Hi guys, just needing some clarification on joker sets:
5x day, you work up to x weight for 5+ reps, then do sets of 5 adding 10% each time?
65kg x5
75kg x5
100kg x5+
then
110kg x5
121kg x5
132kg x5
is this it?
Loving Beyond 5/3/1 btw, really shouldn’t have moved away from this program. the combination of always aiming for pr’s and infinitely flexible assistance work is brillaint[/quote]
Yo, Caveman, here’s what I’m doing. I hope this cut and paste job from my spreadsheet works well…
Week 1 - 65/75/85%
MONDAY
Squat
WARM UP SETS
40% - 150# x 5
50% - 185# x 5
60% - 220# x 3
WORK SETS
65% - 235# x 5
75% - 270# x 5
85% - 310# x 5+
^^10 REP MAX IF DOING JOKER SETS^^
JOKER SETS
95% - 345# x 5
105% - 380# x 5
110% - 400# x 5
FIRST SET LAST - 65% = 3-5 SETS OF 8 REPS
65% - 235# x 3/5 SETS / 5-8 REPS
I forgot to mention, for the Joker sets, each weeks rep ranges are the target reps for the weight lifted. ‘3’ week, 3 reps, ‘1’ week 1 rep etc.
Anyone ever consider putting Power Cleans with a 5/3/1 rep scheme on its own day? I find that my lower body sessions run long and it takes away from my squat and deadlift when I go heavy before either one (as he says place Power Clean first).
Something like this:
Monday - Squat 5/3/1 + assistance
Tuesday - Bench 5/3/1 + assistance
Wednesday - Power Clean 5/3/1 (maybe some extra back work here)
Thursday - OFF
Friday - Deadlift 5/3/1 + assistance
Saturday - Press 5/3/1 + assistance
I wouldn’t. Do as Olympic lifters or some athletes do and do cleans before Squats or Deadlifts. The Clean is going to be better for you than just about any assistance lift on either day.
Also how much assistance are you doing? Wendler’s sessions should be a ‘get in and get the heck out’ type lifting.
[quote]Toshiero wrote:
I wouldn’t. Do as Olympic lifters or some athletes do and do cleans before Squats or Deadlifts. The Clean is going to be better for you than just about any assistance lift on either day.
Also how much assistance are you doing? Wendler’s sessions should be a ‘get in and get the heck out’ type lifting. [/quote]
Well, by long sessions I mean an hour. I try to keep my workouts at or under one hour.
I’m doing the Simplest Strength Template (SST) along with some perks from the Beyond 5/3/1 book.
Tuesday (Legs)
Front Squat (5/3/1)
Back Squat (3x5-8 → First Set Last)
Trap-Bar Deadlift (SST)
Back Raises (3x10-20)
Wednesday (Chest/Triceps)
Bench Press (5/3/1 + First Set Last)
+Chin-Ups
Close-Grip Bench Press (SST)
+Chin-Ups
DB Incline Press (3x8-12)
DB Seated Triceps Ext. (3x10-20)
Saturday (Legs)
Deadlift (5/3/1)
Back Squat (SST)
Romanian Deadlift (3x10-20)
Pull Throughs (3x10-20)
Here’s the template I have been following. I back squat after front squat and after deadlift because I’m essentially reteaching myself how to squat, so it gives me extra practice. The first day is 3x5-8 with the weight I used on the first working set of front squats, and then day two is a 10/8/5 rep scheme for SST, and I generally work up to a few singles as well (nothing near a max).
[quote]baugust wrote:
Here’s the template I have been following. [/quote]
Looks like a lot of stuff; it seems like you want to be a jack of all trades…
For power clean: do them before deadlifts, only the required reps (no AMRAP, no heavy singles), they will be an excellent warm-up for DL.
[quote]baugust wrote:
Here’s the template I have been following. [/quote]
Looks like a lot of stuff; it seems like you want to be a jack of all trades…
For power clean: do them before deadlifts, only the required reps (no AMRAP, no heavy singles), they will be an excellent warm-up for DL.[/quote]
You’re right. That seems to be a consistent issue for me.
Okay, my main focus right now is to drastically bring up my deadlift, to break through a bench plateau (which I may have done), and continue progressing on press and squats. When I added the 8x3 paused bench, my bench press shot up, so I think that is going to be conserved in this next cycle. However, the rest is quite variable, and I’m open to suggestions. Going directly off of the SST template:
Wednesday
5/3/1 Front Squat
SST ?? (I did Trap-Bar deadlift the last 3 cycles of SST… zero carry over to convential deadlift. I was thinking maybe deficit pulls or snatch-grip deadlift since I am weak off of the floor, but not sure how to program this.)
3x10-20 Pull Throughs
3x10-20 Back Raises
I enjoy cleaning, and have tried to work it into my 531 routine.
First, doing them before your deadlifts with anything close to maximal effort, while maybe not preventing you from hitting your base target reps for that day, will definitely limit your potential. Cleans work great as a warm-up, with light weight only. If you want to go heavier, like I do, do them after your all-out set. I enjoy complexes and can usually hit about the same numbers before or after my DL sets, the difference being, for example on 5’s week, Cleaning first, 355 for 8 all out, or for this week, 3’s week, Cleaning last, 375 for 11 (I started very light for my 531 max and haven’t reset it because the high reps seem to be working).
Both cases I could hit the same weights with complexes (full clean, 3 Front Squat, 2 jerks). That might have something to do with my technique as I’ve never practiced the clean consistently. But I’d rather see improvements in my DL than clean.
[quote]Zoro wrote:
I enjoy cleaning, and have tried to work it into my 531 routine.
First, doing them before your deadlifts with anything close to maximal effort, while maybe not preventing you from hitting your base target reps for that day, will definitely limit your potential. Cleans work great as a warm-up, with light weight only. If you want to go heavier, like I do, do them after your all-out set. I enjoy complexes and can usually hit about the same numbers before or after my DL sets, the difference being, for example on 5’s week, Cleaning first, 355 for 8 all out, or for this week, 3’s week, Cleaning last, 375 for 11 (I started very light for my 531 max and haven’t reset it because the high reps seem to be working).
Both cases I could hit the same weights with complexes (full clean, 3 Front Squat, 2 jerks). That might have something to do with my technique as I’ve never practiced the clean consistently. But I’d rather see improvements in my DL than clean.[/quote]
Are those numbers referring to your deadlifts or Cleans?
I definitely agree with you, though. I have issues with rapidly generating force, apparently, so all of my pulls are terribly slow; Cleans and deadlifts. I was considering resetting Cleans to use them, like you said, as more of a warm-up. Maybe they’ll even give me a chance to work on speed. I do admit that I’m doing Power Cleans, as I don’t know how to Clean and am afraid to jump into them without guidance. I think the weight I’m Power Cleaning is getting a bit too high, to the point where I would be much better suited doing a full Clean. Just a thought.
Deadlift numbers, I can’t imagine cleaning heavy weight for 5+ reps at this stage in my training.
I learned to full clean by myself, watching tons of vids. Like you, the power clean came first. If you have the mobility for a full front squat, practice by power cleaning and as soon as you rack it doing a front squat. Soon it will come more naturally. Dumbbell snatches also helped me learn to get under the bar.
Also, the difference in those DL sets, which I probably didn’t convey well, was that the 375x11 was leaving some in the tank. Very surprising after weeks of warming up with complexes involving cleans and getting 8-5 reps on my all out sets. Before I started looking to incorporate cleans I was getting up in the 15 rep range on my 5 and 3 weeks. Like I said I started light, but didn’t reset my max because there hasn’t been a need to; still getting stronger on all my lifts, Deadlift included.
[quote]Zoro wrote:
Deadlift numbers, I can’t imagine cleaning heavy weight for 5+ reps at this stage in my training.
I learned to full clean by myself, watching tons of vids. Like you, the power clean came first. If you have the mobility for a full front squat, practice by power cleaning and as soon as you rack it doing a front squat. Soon it will come more naturally. Dumbbell snatches also helped me learn to get under the bar.
Also, the difference in those DL sets, which I probably didn’t convey well, was that the 375x11 was leaving some in the tank. Very surprising after weeks of warming up with complexes involving cleans and getting 8-5 reps on my all out sets. Before I started looking to incorporate cleans I was getting up in the 15 rep range on my 5 and 3 weeks. Like I said I started light, but didn’t reset my max because there hasn’t been a need to; still getting stronger on all my lifts, Deadlift included.[/quote]
I have a pretty good front squat, at least I think so, so I’ll definitely work on that.
I actually find that high rep deadlifts (unlike my other lifts) don’t carry over very well to my 1RM. I’m going to go a few cycles on the PL template, getting only the required reps then pulling a few singles. Do you think I should use the 5 week as a rep max still, but hold off on the 3 and 5/3/1 week?
If you want to do 531 PL, do 531 PL as Wendler wrote it. I find that I need more hypertrophy work because my size seems to be the limiting factor in my gains, so I go all out on my last set every week but deload week, where I usually hit 10x10 @50-60% for Squat and Bench, take a break from deadlifting and just clean and jerk or push press for a combined OHP/DL day.
That said, in addition to the last work set, I usually do some heavy singles or doubles, but it’s not the 531 PL template. Wendler doesn’t usually advocate partial ROM excercises, which is what I sometimes do for these (ex. Pin Squats, Rack Pulls, OHP from Pins). Sometimes it’s a push press or a different excercise (Goodmorning, Snatch Grip DL, Close Grip Bench, Trap bar DL) and usually only for two or three sets. The only reason I didn’t follow the original template is my body likes to increase the weight linearly, like the non-PL template does. My current training style evolved from that.
I should add that you could definitely do PL template for just DL and keep the original template for your other lifts if they are benefiting from it.[/quote]
Good points. So you think I should push the last sets every week, and go for singles on the 3 and 5/3/1 weeks??
It’s funny that you mention what I’ve quoted above, because that’s exactly what I had decided to do. I did 5 week press today, and I was planning on doing 3 week deadlift tomorrow. I’ve been incorporating the “6 week cycles” from Beyond 5/3/1… how would you go about that? 3 week, 5 week, 5/3/1 week, then repeat? Problem is, those are back-to-back weeks with singles (not that I’m not willing).
For my squat day, I wanted to add a deadlift variation for assistance, any suggestions? I’m weakest off the floor. Here’s what I have so far for my squat day. I’m doing the SST template for the big assistance lift for all other days, and previously used Trap-bar deadlift for this day, but it has had zero carryover to my conventional deadlift.
5/3/1 Front Squat
3x10-20 Pull Throughs
3x10-20 Back Raises
For going all out and then hitting singles, I was just saying that’s what I do; I’d recommend giving the PL template a try as written either for DL only or all lifts. But if you decide to add in the extra singles (Wendler has written something similiar in his new book apparently, which I haven’t read and refers to them as joker sets) I think you’ll be fine provided you don’t try and max out with full ROM lifts. Keep in mind i still do the original progression of 5, 3, 531, deload, and I do singles every non-deload day, just not has heavy for 3’s week.
DL-ing off the floor is also my weak point… I dunno man, everyones different. I used to be weak at lock-out so being weak off the floor is new to me. I don’t know if you posted your numbers or not, but my squat is my weak point overall so i just squat or front squat for assistance on both DL and squat days. Like I said previously, I’ve done snatch-grip deads and complexes involving front squats and cleans recently. My reasoning for the snatch grip deads are that it’s like pulling from a deficit, but also fries my weak points in my upper back. Two birds with one stone.
I was debating between snatch-grip deadlift and deficit deadlift, so I think I’ll go with snatch-grip. Any recommendations on rep schemes after squatting? Maybe just 3-5 sets of 2-3 reps?