Wendler's 5/3/1 Program - Part 3

Training Powerlifting
641

[quote]LA wrote:

[quote]jt1 wrote:

[quote]mjnewland wrote:

[quote]jt1 wrote:
Do Dips have any place in the BBB template? What day do you think is best to stick them in? [/quote]

Yes. Read The Book.[/quote]

I have bought and read the book. However, i have read elsewhere that adding dips after BBB Bench on Bench day is perhaps too much. Also, Wendler, in his example BBB Template, uses dumbbell rows as assistance after BBB Bench, and no dips on any of the days. However, my bench is lagging and would think that dips would be a good assistance to do after BBB Bench, no?

My current Setup looks like this:

Bench, BBB Bench, Dips
Squat, BBB Squat, Step ups
Military, BBB Military, Chins
Deadlift, BBB Deadlift, Hanging Leg raises

What you think, are dips necessary after BBB Bench?[/quote]

If I were dead set on using BBB and using dips, I’d do the dips BBB style instead of BBB military. Don’t neglect the DB rows in order to add dips.

Another option… do 1 set of 10-20 dips every workout, after whatever template you are running. Add up total weekly reps, do more reps next week. Low threat. The volume should be no problem, and will build slowly.

One more time… do your Kroc Rows!

LA
[/quote]

Thanks guys - Really appreciate all the responses.

I’ve decided to keep the rows on Bench day and replace BBB Military with BBB Style Dips. So the setup should look something like this:

Bench, BBB Bench, DB Rows
Squat, BBB Squat, Step ups
Military, BBB style Dips, Chins
Deadlift, BBB Deadlift, Hanging Leg raises

That look alright?

Cheers guys

JT

642

[quote]blake b wrote:
I gotta respectfully disagree (first time too) on this one with you Dude. I think it’s an excellent way to help with hypertrophy because of the volume. Most bodybuilders train with typically more volume that the average person regardless of the weight as it pertains their max lifts. That aside, IMHO, doing 5x10 of whatever lift you did also reinforces the movement pattern. That makes your body more efficient and therefore will help add weight to the lift. On page 47 of 5-3-1 Jim mentions BBB (boring but BIG [as is muscle size]) adding muscle.

I have gained size using BBB. Not huge immediate gains, but since I’ve been using it, I’ve noticed my shirts are a little tighter across my upper back and chest. 5-3-1 is all about small gains over a long period of time.

[/quote]

ha ha alright man that’s fine. I’m going by what has been working for me and what has worked for bodybuilders for many years. I think a trip to the Bodybuilding Bible thread gives a lot of insight.

I’m wondering how much of this size increase can be attributed to adaptation … as in you have not been training this way (high volume). Don’t get me wrong, I was getting a great pump. I just don’t agree that it is the best/most efficient method for getting bigger and stronger.

643

[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:

[quote]TisDrew wrote:

[quote]MementoMori wrote:
Could someone very briefly given me the theory behind BBB? I’m sure this information has been provided before so I’ll appreciate the patience anyone has to explain it. I understand it stands for Big But Boring and involves 5 sets of 10 at a very managable weight after your 5/3/1 on that same lift? Why does Wendler suggest this and is it well geared when your focus is on strength?[/quote]

It reinforces technique via lighter weights after your heavy lifts for the day. It also is great for hypertrophy due to the volume aspect of it (I personally get a great pump from it). For deadlifts and squats, it can be seen as a little conditioning. [/quote]

TisDrew, I’m not picking on you because you’re really trying.

BBB is not good for hypertrophy because … bodybuilders do not train that way. Now if you did 5x10 ramped to a top set … now you’ve got something. [/quote]

I have to disagree with this. BBB is intended for hypertrophy - hence the name Jim gives it: Boring but Big. Its also what he recommends on elitefts for people asking about gaining size.

644

[quote]jt1 wrote:

[quote]LA wrote:

[quote]jt1 wrote:

[quote]mjnewland wrote:

[quote]jt1 wrote:
Do Dips have any place in the BBB template? What day do you think is best to stick them in? [/quote]

Yes. Read The Book.[/quote]

I have bought and read the book. However, i have read elsewhere that adding dips after BBB Bench on Bench day is perhaps too much. Also, Wendler, in his example BBB Template, uses dumbbell rows as assistance after BBB Bench, and no dips on any of the days. However, my bench is lagging and would think that dips would be a good assistance to do after BBB Bench, no?

My current Setup looks like this:

Bench, BBB Bench, Dips
Squat, BBB Squat, Step ups
Military, BBB Military, Chins
Deadlift, BBB Deadlift, Hanging Leg raises

What you think, are dips necessary after BBB Bench?[/quote]

If I were dead set on using BBB and using dips, I’d do the dips BBB style instead of BBB military. Don’t neglect the DB rows in order to add dips.

Another option… do 1 set of 10-20 dips every workout, after whatever template you are running. Add up total weekly reps, do more reps next week. Low threat. The volume should be no problem, and will build slowly.

One more time… do your Kroc Rows!

LA
[/quote]

Thanks guys - Really appreciate all the responses.

I’ve decided to keep the rows on Bench day and replace BBB Military with BBB Style Dips. So the setup should look something like this:

Bench, BBB Bench, DB Rows
Squat, BBB Squat, Step ups
Military, BBB style Dips, Chins
Deadlift, BBB Deadlift, Hanging Leg raises

That look alright?

Cheers guys

JT
[/quote]

apart from snarkiness the other day, His Jimness is a big fan of dips. Read his Q&A over at elitefts.com, he gets asked about it alot, and he answers his mail there much more than he does here.
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?a=search&tid=
put a in the left box, and choose Jim Wendler from the dropdown on the right, and you will see much of the Jim Knowledge. Dips and Chins feature largely here

645

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:

[quote]TisDrew wrote:

[quote]MementoMori wrote:
Could someone very briefly given me the theory behind BBB? I’m sure this information has been provided before so I’ll appreciate the patience anyone has to explain it. I understand it stands for Big But Boring and involves 5 sets of 10 at a very managable weight after your 5/3/1 on that same lift? Why does Wendler suggest this and is it well geared when your focus is on strength?[/quote]

It reinforces technique via lighter weights after your heavy lifts for the day. It also is great for hypertrophy due to the volume aspect of it (I personally get a great pump from it). For deadlifts and squats, it can be seen as a little conditioning. [/quote]

TisDrew, I’m not picking on you because you’re really trying.

BBB is not good for hypertrophy because … bodybuilders do not train that way. Now if you did 5x10 ramped to a top set … now you’ve got something. [/quote]

I have to disagree with this. BBB is intended for hypertrophy - hence the name Jim gives it: Boring but Big. Its also what he recommends on elitefts for people asking about gaining size.
[/quote]

I have always done BBB and nothing else. For me, I spent the first 4 cycles going way too hard on the accessories, and it didn’t help. I pulled my head out of my ass, dropped my training maxes, and went lower on the accessories, and its been PR and Bigness City since then. Jim says over and over not to kill yourself on the accessories, it will mess with your recovery. If you do your 5 sets of 10 where you still have a rep or 2 in the tank on the last set, that is when the volume starts to produce good hypertrophy, at least that’s how it was for me, but i’m a big fat guy, and old too. its just too tempting to go too heavy. gotta fight the ego.

646

[quote]mjnewland wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:
I have to disagree with this. BBB is intended for hypertrophy - hence the name Jim gives it: Boring but Big. Its also what he recommends on elitefts for people asking about gaining size.
[/quote]

I have always done BBB and nothing else. For me, I spent the first 4 cycles going way too hard on the accessories, and it didn’t help. I pulled my head out of my ass, dropped my training maxes, and went lower on the accessories, and its been PR and Bigness City since then. Jim says over and over not to kill yourself on the accessories, it will mess with your recovery. If you do your 5 sets of 10 where you still have a rep or 2 in the tank on the last set, that is when the volume starts to produce good hypertrophy, at least that’s how it was for me, but i’m a big fat guy, and old too. its just too tempting to go too heavy. gotta fight the ego.[/quote]

lol alright guys. I think Jim is great, but I don’t think he’s the foremost authority on bodybuilding. He recommends it because it is part of his program. Would he suggest something else? No. This is not a pure bodybuilding program. Fine. The question was asked if BBB is good for hypertrophy. My response was based on the best method for hypertrophy. I don’t think it is the best, but clearly has worked for several of you.

I’m going to give BBB a try again this cycle since it has been a good 8 months since I had last done it.

647

Keep in mind that BBB – or any hypertrophy based programming – isn’t going to do much without enough calories. This isn’t directed at anyone in particular, just a reminder.

In my own experience, I’ve BBB with ramping weights to be more effective that just straight weight. I think, by the last set or two, it’s pretty much just endurance work. Especially if you’re using 50% or less of your 1RM (Unless you have some elite-level 1RM’s).

648

[quote]Doenitz79 wrote:
But how heavy for these singles? 90%?[/quote]

This is something that interested me as well, so I looked it up on elite fts. This is what Matt Rhodes says:

[quote]
First, I wouldn’t go after heavier singles every week. I’d suggest doing the weeks like this:

Wk 1 - 3’s + 2-3 singles
Wk 2 - 5’s
Wk 3 - 5/3/1 + 1-2 singles
Wk 4 - 5’s deload

When you hit a single above the prescribed single, DO NOT change your training max. Keep the training max lighter and do the program as directed.

If you do decide to go for some singles I would not try for a rep record before. There’s nothing to say you can’t, but it doesn’t make sense to me. [/quote]

In another post he says the singles shouldn’t be max singles, so 90% should be just about right.

I’ve just started with 531, this seems like a nice way of mixing things up once things get a little stale in a year or so.

649

since i follow the 5/3/1 and having problem creating a new topic i’m gonna answer my question here sorry if it’s the apropriate place but i really need help

hi everyone 2 years ago my shoulders popped 2 times during a military pressing session , and one year ago it was during a squat session ,since then i stopped the military press and the back squat because of a lack of shoulder mobility , i front squat now rather than back squat and the only kind of overhead pressing that i do is used with a neutral grip for assistance exercise and not heavy.

i’m currently training using the 5/3/1 and busting my ass in the gym , the weights are up but i miss the back squat i really want to have more shoulder mobility to back squat again (when i grab the bar for a back squat even with no load on it disturbs a lot) when i pass “behind the neck” point i feel that my left shoulder is not stable and can pop ,no one could help me or advice me well so please if anyone of you could help me it would be great.

is there any hope to recuperate my shoulder mobility or should i just forget the back squat and military press if yes how much could it affect my stengh gain ?
i’m 26, 6"6 and 220 pounds and have very long limbs

thank you in advance
amn.

650

I’m currently doing BBB and I want to start ramping the BB lifts. If you have been doing 5x10x50%, what do you guys think the ramping should look like?

Maybe 40%,45%, 50%, 55%, 60%?

651

[quote]JoeGood wrote:
I’m currently doing BBB and I want to start ramping the BB lifts. If you have been doing 5x10x50%, what do you guys think the ramping should look like?

Maybe 40%,45%, 50%, 55%, 60%?[/quote]

Ramping is good, but not for what you’re suggesting. You just got done doing (bp,sq,dl,mp) and then you’re going to do the same exercise again to a top set? For what purpose? That just doesn’t make sense to me. I would do a different exercise that way, but not the same.

Of course I could always be wrong

652

I’ve seen Jim suggest ramping down before on BBB.

Also, another option get more work in on the main lift without doing BBB is to repeat both or one of the sets prior to the ‘main’ set.

eg. on 3’s week

70% x 3 80% x 3 90% x at least 3 80% x 3 70% x 3 or you could ‘max’ out again here or min. 10 reps

or

70% x 3 80% x 3 90% x at least 3 70% x ‘max’ out again here or min. 10 reps

I find this a good set-up when doing The Triumvirate for assistance.

653

Yeah, that’s basically what I’ve been doing. I do the 5/3/1 template for the day and then drop down to the first working set of the day and do that again for 3 sets. Its working out really well.

For example, in the 1st week of the cycle the working sets are 65%, 75%, and 85%. All for sets of 5. I will do that and then drop down to 65% and do 3 more sets of 5 at that weight. In weeks 2 I do 3 more sets of 3 at the 70% weight and in week 3 I do 3 more sets of 5 at the 75% weight. This is working out really well for me, much better than BBB.

654

[quote]amn wrote:
since i follow the 5/3/1 and having problem creating a new topic i’m gonna answer my question here sorry if it’s the apropriate place but i really need help

hi everyone 2 years ago my shoulders popped 2 times during a military pressing session , and one year ago it was during a squat session ,since then i stopped the military press and the back squat because of a lack of shoulder mobility , i front squat now rather than back squat and the only kind of overhead pressing that i do is used with a neutral grip for assistance exercise and not heavy.

i’m currently training using the 5/3/1 and busting my ass in the gym , the weights are up but i miss the back squat i really want to have more shoulder mobility to back squat again (when i grab the bar for a back squat even with no load on it disturbs a lot) when i pass “behind the neck” point i feel that my left shoulder is not stable and can pop ,no one could help me or advice me well so please if anyone of you could help me it would be great.

is there any hope to recuperate my shoulder mobility or should i just forget the back squat and military press if yes how much could it affect my stengh gain ?
i’m 26, 6"6 and 220 pounds and have very long limbs

thank you in advance
amn.[/quote]

if you have a mobility problem, you may need address both mobility and stability in your shoulders. Us guys over in the old folks home have a great thread for this. I highly pimp out the LTWP for rotator cuff health, stability, etc. but check the thread here:Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness

655

thanks man for the answer i appreciate!

656

I know this may have been answered in many of the 5/3/1 threads but id rather not go searching through so many pages, so sorry in advance.

I cannot deadlift or do its variations due to a back injury.

So what would you do to 5/3/1 which is based around the big 4? (bench, squat, military and dl)

657

[quote]Mikeee wrote:
I know this may have been answered in many of the 5/3/1 threads but id rather not go searching through so many pages, so sorry in advance.

I cannot deadlift or do its variations due to a back injury.

So what would you do to 5/3/1 which is based around the big 4? (bench, squat, military and dl)[/quote]

Option 1:
Base it on just the 3 lifts you can do…
Mon Bench, Wed Squat, Fri Military

Option 2:
Do something else on the DL day…
just do the assistance that you would do on DL day… hams/glutes/erector spinae
another squat (or squat variation) day, not 5/3/1 loading, maybe BBB
extra trap/lat/rhomboid work
extra conditioning day

LA

658

[quote]Mikeee wrote:
I know this may have been answered in many of the 5/3/1 threads but id rather not go searching through so many pages, so sorry in advance.

I cannot deadlift or do its variations due to a back injury.

So what would you do to 5/3/1 which is based around the big 4? (bench, squat, military and dl)[/quote]

Weighted chin-ups. Figure out your max (bodyweight + weight) then do the calculations. I don’t have a link, but I know Jim has ‘approved’ it.

659

[quote]Mikeee wrote:
I know this may have been answered in many of the 5/3/1 threads but id rather not go searching through so many pages, so sorry in advance.

I cannot deadlift or do its variations due to a back injury.

So what would you do to 5/3/1 which is based around the big 4? (bench, squat, military and dl)[/quote]

Can you do bentover row at all? I started doing that 5/3/1 style after bench press but it would work on its own day if you couldn’t do a lift. If not that, weighted pullups? If your still doing squats your back must still be good for something. Every time I have hurt my back squats were out of the question as long as DLs were too.

660

Yep can definitely do weighted pullups I will probably substitute the deadlift day with a pullup following the 5/3/1 guidelines, thanks TheDudeAbides

And I can somewhat do bent over rows but going heavy starts to strain the back.

Another question I have the “training 3 days a week” ebook by wendler, I was wondering is it worth investing in the actual 5/3/1 ebook since the 3 days a week does go thru 5/3/1 in fairly good detail