Hey guys sorry to bring up the diet/nutrition talk again but, I was giving the whole AD a pondering and having to worry about counting carbs all day just seems like a major pain in the ass (plus the protein powder I am using right now has 9grm, so just a couple shakes is over half my carbs). Might just continue eating (and dinking my milk) the way I am right now. Might give Jims recomendation of a shake before each meal a go just to see. Curious if anyone else has tried it and what the effects were.
[quote]NewWorldMan wrote:
Question about my progression:
I’m on my 6th 5/3/1 cycle and enjoying the program more than any other lifting routine I’ve ever followed.
I’ve noticed that I seem to be strong on the 3x5 and 3x3 days and ‘seem’ to under perform on the 5/3/1 days. Today I had a disappointing 3x3 day on the bench.
My 3x5 weeks I’ve gotten the following reps:
9,9,10,7,8,8 (5 pound progressions each new cycle).
My 3x3 weeks:
8,6,7,6,6, and today 3
my ‘1’ week:
6,3,2,2,2,
I seem to be ‘weak’ on the top end. Example: my last 3x3 week I did 215x8; tonight I scheduled 230 and could only get 3(I’ve gotten 6@225 recently (according to the formula I needed to get 5/6 to = the calculated 1RM). I don’t think this was a ‘one off’ bad day. I’m seeing a trend in my logs.
I read about guys on 5/3/1 who end up with actual 1 RMs well above their training max.
My 1RM projects out to 265/270 or so when I get 8 reps@ 215. But I can barely get 2@240 and only 3 today @ 230. Makes me feel that I couldn’t push 255 for a single let alone 270 or so.
Is this normal or do I have a ‘weakness’ that needs corrected.
If this is not normal, any clues how to tackle fixing this?[/quote]
Since you made it through 6 cycles, I assume you actually started with 90% (or less) of your 1RM. That being said, since you have gone 6 cycles, you are nearing your true max and you might just be closing in on reset time.
Next, are you regularly overhead pressing as well right now? Are you doing overhead and benching in the same week? And, if so, how has your progress been on your overhead? I’m asking all this because your overhead press might be interfering with you bench progress. Your shoulders might be overworked.
If this is the case, congratulations. You’ve just learned something about training yourself. If you’re making good overhead gains, you could just ride this out for another cycle or two until you reset and just try for the prescribed reps, or maybe a little more, on the bench. Then next run focus more on the bench and drop off the reps on the overhead a little.
Or you could try to wave your overhead and bench reps now. For example, on the week of 5’s, just get the prescribed reps on the bench and go all out on overhead. On the week of 3’s, just get the 3 reps on both bench and overhead. Then on the 5/3/1 week, just do 1 or 2 reps on the overhead, but go all out on the bench.
I think, the longer you do this program, the more it becomes necessary to do some sort of waving like this and pick your battles as far as reps are concerned.
Another very real possibility is that you are just going through a sort of low-point in your training. Strength gains aren’t linear. It has its ups and downs. In a cycle or two, you might find yourself suddenly hitting some very good rep PR’s. I’ve had this happen to me. I might struggle for a cycle or two, then suddenly the next cycle, everything seems easier. As long as you are still hitting the prescribed reps, I wouldn’t worry too much.
Finally, you might was to reassess your assistance work. Maybe you’re doing too much and hurting your gains. Maybe you’re doing too little, or doing the wrong lifts, and not helping your gains at all.
Good luck.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
NewWorldMan wrote:
Question about my progression:
…
Since you made it through 6 cycles, I assume you actually started with 90% (or less) of your 1RM. That being said, since you have gone 6 cycles, you are nearing your true max and you might just be closing in on reset time.
Next, are you regularly overhead pressing as well right now? Are you doing overhead and benching in the same week? And, if so, how has your progress been on your overhead? I’m asking all this because your overhead press might be interfering with you bench progress. Your shoulders might be overworked.
If this is the case, congratulations. You’ve just learned something about training yourself. If you’re making good overhead gains, you could just ride this out for another cycle or two until you reset and just try for the prescribed reps, or maybe a little more, on the bench. Then next run focus more on the bench and drop off the reps on the overhead a little.
Or you could try to wave your overhead and bench reps now. For example, on the week of 5’s, just get the prescribed reps on the bench and go all out on overhead. On the week of 3’s, just get the 3 reps on both bench and overhead. Then on the 5/3/1 week, just do 1 or 2 reps on the overhead, but go all out on the bench.
I think, the longer you do this program, the more it becomes necessary to do some sort of waving like this and pick your battles as far as reps are concerned.
Another very real possibility is that you are just going through a sort of low-point in your training. Strength gains aren’t linear. It has its ups and downs. In a cycle or two, you might find yourself suddenly hitting some very good rep PR’s. I’ve had this happen to me. I might struggle for a cycle or two, then suddenly the next cycle, everything seems easier. As long as you are still hitting the prescribed reps, I wouldn’t worry too much.
Finally, you might was to reassess your assistance work. Maybe you’re doing too much and hurting your gains. Maybe you’re doing too little, or doing the wrong lifts, and not helping your gains at all.
Good luck.[/quote]
Thanks for the prompt (and early) reply!
I did indeed start at 90% of (then) current max back in May.
With the exception of the 2nd cycle, I’ve run a 3/week cycle (so I’m only hitting upper body every 4/5 days and benching every 9/10). I’ve stayed faithful to the deload weeks per the book.
For the last 4 cycles I’ve been faithful to the standing press.
Volume-wise, I’m sticking pretty close the books templates - 5 sets of additional pushing, rows and rear delts on bench day; pullups and rear delts on press day. With MANY years of training in the bag, I feel safe in saying the volume is not too much.
I appreciate your input regarding the possibility of waving the press/bench. As well, the thought of doing a reset after 6 cycles - I know I’ve reset the deadlift already and am still making progress with it, so a bench reset may be in order. The question becomes what to base my new 90% off of:
According to the books formula 215x8 yields a new 245 training max | 230x3 yields a 228. The 245 is close to wear I’m at this cycle (255 TM) so it might not yield much difference. I fear the 230 TM will just allow me to be strong at the lower weights and still end up stalling 3/4 cycles form now when I get back to 245/250 or so.
Prior to starting 5/3/1 I was doing a 3/week full body and getting great results strength wise (hit PRs last fall and again in the spring). I noticed from my old logs that I seem to do well from squatting 2-3/week but my elbows don’t hold up to pressing 3/week.
You noted that gains may not be linear, but then the issue becomes peaking for a particular date (in my case I’ve been aiming at 11/21/09 (my 39th b-day) to test my 1 RMs).
Though I’m reluctant to drop the shoulder press completely, I’m thinking I could try this:
Tuesday = Deadlift Thursday = Bench Saturday = Squat
This will allow me to get my squat frequency up (from every 9/10 days to every 7, which my old logs indicate provides good results) and drop off the volume on the pressing (maybe will keep me fresh.)
Again thanks for the input!
[quote]HUNTER13 wrote:
Hey guys sorry to bring up the diet/nutrition talk again but, I was giving the whole AD a pondering and having to worry about counting carbs all day just seems like a major pain in the ass (plus the protein powder I am using right now has 9grm, so just a couple shakes is over half my carbs). Might just continue eating (and dinking my milk) the way I am right now. Might give Jims recomendation of a shake before each meal a go just to see. Curious if anyone else has tried it and what the effects were.[/quote]
I’m on deload week of my 4th 5/3/1 cycle and started AD on Tu. I think that deload week is a good time to start so you can let your body get used to the changes. Counting carbs doesn’t seem too bad. You focus first on foods that you know have very little to no carbs and then it is only the other food that you worry about.
With AD, you should try to eat food to get protein since you will get the fat with it. I’d buy some other protein powder for low carbs days and use up what you got for high carb days.
BTW, I track nutrition and exercise at DailyBurn. PM me if you want to check out what I eat and do and I’ll provide a link.
NewWorldMan,
If you use Excel, I have provided a spreadsheet that helps to visualize performance.
[quote]jsdool wrote:
NewWorldMan,
If you use Excel, I have provided a spreadsheet that helps to visualize performance.
Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness [/quote]
Thanks!
Hey guys, I really need some advice.
I’m on my 5th cycle now of BBB to the letter. My first 2 cycles went great but the 3 after haven’t gotten me any stronger and in some cases I’ve gotten weaker.
Example: At the end of cycle 2 I hit 135 OHP for 8 reps. Now at the end of cycle 4 I did 145 for 2. That’s bullshit.
My nutrition and recovery are in order, although I half assed deloading for the first 2 cycles. I was thinking that maybe I should rotate my main exercises every 2 cycles? I’m not sure. The feeling of failing every workout fucking sucks.
[quote]LiftSmart wrote:
Hey guys, I really need some advice.
I’m on my 5th cycle now of BBB to the letter. My first 2 cycles went great but the 3 after haven’t gotten me any stronger and in some cases I’ve gotten weaker.
Example: At the end of cycle 2 I hit 135 OHP for 8 reps. Now at the end of cycle 4 I did 145 for 2. That’s bullshit.
My nutrition and recovery are in order, although I half assed deloading for the first 2 cycles. I was thinking that maybe I should rotate my main exercises every 2 cycles? I’m not sure. The feeling of failing every workout fucking sucks.
[/quote]
OHP is the most difficult to continually progress in. You possibly hit a wall and need to take a step back. This just happened to me as well. I dropped 10 lbs (2 cycles) and am building back up.
[quote]LiftSmart wrote:
Hey guys, I really need some advice.
…
I was thinking that maybe I should rotate my main exercises every 2 cycles? I’m not sure. The feeling of failing every workout fucking sucks.
[/quote]
Since you say you’re good on recovery/nutrition I’m assuming the 145x2 wasn’t a ‘bad day at the office.’ A few options come to my mind:
-
I think Jim’s e-book addresses this:
Question: Can I switch movements every other cycle? For example, do a trap bar deadlift for a cycle and then switch to a deadlift and then back to the trap bar.
Answer: No. Stick with one exercise and keep pushing this exercise until you stall out or reach your personal goals. -
You may be at a reset point after 5 cycles - do a reset according to the program
or
- The assistance work is there to help you get better at the main lift. Why not switch up the assistance exercises and see if that will give a kick to your main lift?
/I feel your pain - check out my post just above yours (6th cycle went from 215x8 to 230x3 - also read the replies to my post).
[quote]LiftSmart wrote:
Hey guys, I really need some advice.
I’m on my 5th cycle now of BBB to the letter. My first 2 cycles went great but the 3 after haven’t gotten me any stronger and in some cases I’ve gotten weaker.
Example: At the end of cycle 2 I hit 135 OHP for 8 reps. Now at the end of cycle 4 I did 145 for 2. That’s bullshit.
My nutrition and recovery are in order, although I half assed deloading for the first 2 cycles. I was thinking that maybe I should rotate my main exercises every 2 cycles? I’m not sure. The feeling of failing every workout fucking sucks.
[/quote]
I am finishing my 5th cycle, and I had a similar experience with the 0 Press. It actually went backwards on the second through 4th cycles (everything else was going up). But I made some big jumps this month. I am not sure why, but I did go to 4 days a week (up from 3 and I was doubling squat and military on the same day) and cut out some assistance work. The O press is a funny beast and you may be making gains that are not showing up yet. But I for sure wouldn’t fuck around with the deload. Its the key to the program.
[quote]NewWorldMan wrote:
…
My 3x5 weeks I’ve gotten the following reps:
9,9,10,7,8,8 (5 pound progressions each new cycle).
My 3x3 weeks:
8,6,7,6,6, and today 3
my ‘1’ week:
6,3,2,2,2,
…[/quote]
I was going through similar thing a while ago and this Jim’s suggestion got me moving.
Switch the order 3x5 and 3x3 weeks and only go for rep records on 3x3 and 5/3/1 weeks, further only go for rep records if you feel like it.
Basically i was running myself to the ground previously, having a structure like this helped me out.
Is it possible to do BBB and other accessory exercises with the 2 day template? This is how I put it together, but I’m not sure if it is correct.
I want to still be able to do BBB, but I also want to keep doing 100 pullups a week and keep in the other two accessory exercises I would normally do on my leg days. I can’t really train 4 days a week anymore due to school and work taking up a lot more time now than usual.
Day 1
Bench 531
Squat 531
BBB Bench w/ 50 pullups
BBB Squat w/ Leg curl
Day 2
Deadlift 531
Overhead Press 531
BBB Deadlift w/ ab wheel
BBB OHP w/ 50 pullups
[quote]dolarhyde wrote:
Is it possible to do BBB and other accessory exercises with the 2 day template? This is how I put it together, but I’m not sure if it is correct.
I want to still be able to do BBB, but I also want to keep doing 100 pullups a week and keep in the other two accessory exercises I would normally do on my leg days. I can’t really train 4 days a week anymore due to school and work taking up a lot more time now than usual.
Day 1
Bench 531
Squat 531
BBB Bench w/ 50 pullups
BBB Squat w/ Leg curl
Day 2
Deadlift 531
Overhead Press 531
BBB Deadlift w/ ab wheel
BBB OHP w/ 50 pullups
[/quote]
Personally, that looks like hell to do. I do not want to do anything after 531 and BBB deadlifting, but if I become similarly strapped for time I may well do the same routine. It is in line with what Jim recommends on page 62 on the manual.
5x10 on the main lift acts as an assistance lift, so you have two assistance lifts for each main lift. It is probably worth a try, and if you do you should should definitely report back on it. Good luck.
Hay guys
Ive just order 2 mini bands from a website with the intention of doing some speed benching and using them for pullups (im a fat ass). Would it be worth doing speed bench for my bench assistance or should I do it on a separate day? I would probably do 5-8 sets of 2-3 reps with ~50% of my 1RM.
[quote]sherro wrote:
Hay guys
Ive just order 2 mini bands from a website with the intention of doing some speed benching and using them for pullups (im a fat ass). Would it be worth doing speed bench for my bench assistance or should I do it on a separate day? I would probably do 5-8 sets of 2-3 reps with ~50% of my 1RM. [/quote]
Why are you asking about speed benching in this thread?
[quote]malonetd wrote:
sherro wrote:
Hay guys
Ive just order 2 mini bands from a website with the intention of doing some speed benching and using them for pullups (im a fat ass). Would it be worth doing speed bench for my bench assistance or should I do it on a separate day? I would probably do 5-8 sets of 2-3 reps with ~50% of my 1RM.
Why are you asking about speed benching in this thread?[/quote]
Because I’m doing 5/3/1 and want to incorporate speed benching… surely that’s fairly obvious.
Jim doesn’t really recommend DE days as 5/3/1 is not specifically designed for it.
To anyone doing the two day template, doing each lift once per week (not doing the 4 over two weeks): Do you do the deload? In the eBook Jim indicates its not a good idea (but I seem to think this is if yuor doing the 4 lifts over two weeks - after all doing it all in two sessions is pretty hard).
Anyway, I’d like to see other peoples views.
I have only done one cycle (with the deload) as I wanted to do it ‘as written’ I’m now considering either doing one deload day or just missing one day completely then jump back in, like this:
Tuesday,
DL 5/3/1
BB Row
M Press 5/3/1
BBB M Press
Abs
Face Pull
Friday,
F Sq 5/3/1
BBB F Sq
Bench 5/3/1
DB floor Press 3x10
DB Tri ext 3x10
Abs
45deg back raise
Face Pull
So Deload would be miss Tuesday then Dl on the Friday. This would give 6 days rest - surely enough for a deload?
[quote]sherro wrote:
malonetd wrote:
sherro wrote:
Hay guys
Ive just order 2 mini bands from a website with the intention of doing some speed benching and using them for pullups (im a fat ass). Would it be worth doing speed bench for my bench assistance or should I do it on a separate day? I would probably do 5-8 sets of 2-3 reps with ~50% of my 1RM.
Why are you asking about speed benching in this thread?
Because I’m doing 5/3/1 and want to incorporate speed benching… surely that’s fairly obvious.[/quote]
Well then why wouldn’t you run a program that already incorporates speed benching? To me, that would be the “fairly obvious” thing to do.
[quote]sherro wrote:
malonetd wrote:
sherro wrote:
Hay guys
Ive just order 2 mini bands from a website with the intention of doing some speed benching and using them for pullups (im a fat ass). Would it be worth doing speed bench for my bench assistance or should I do it on a separate day? I would probably do 5-8 sets of 2-3 reps with ~50% of my 1RM.
Why are you asking about speed benching in this thread?
Because I’m doing 5/3/1 and want to incorporate speed benching… surely that’s fairly obvious.[/quote]
Actually its not fairly obvious… if you are incorporating speed benching, then you aren’t really doing 5/3/1.