Video: Girls Lifting Session

Training Bodybuilding
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[quote]Bratt wrote:
“Trainers” like Nominal Prospect and Kaeosali are the reason I don’t have a trainer and am learning mostly from a book and online articles by Alwyn Cosgrove as well as everything I can read here by CT.

AC and CT have taught me WHY I want to start off lifting weights with the Deadlift and the Squat. It’s not the only way, but based on what I have read I believe it is the best way for me. I’m building a foundation.

I don’t do only compound movements, I just start with them. That’s bull about no progress with them. I’ve only been lifting 4 weeks. I learned form first using just the bar and it only took one day spent focused on just that to get decent at it, lifting safely and knowing when to stop (not going to failure). My 1RM max was 105lbs for the Squat (ATG) and 115lbs for the deadlift. Four weeks later I am doing 3 sets of 10 with 105 for the Deadlift and 85 for the Squat. My body (muscle) is harder, I am stronger and more agile, I feel better and I can lift more. ALL with decent form. And I’m a 41 year old female who is going to build muscles slower than a 20 year old and waaaaay slower than a male yet I am seeing obvious and measurable results.

The very clear distinction between you two and Alwyn and CT: They are COACHES in the truest sense of the word AND they have high level experience in their field as competitors, teachers and learners. You guys are just “Personal Trainers”.

The problem with the two of you is it’s all about you! You need to EDUCATE your clients! Not just do whatever it takes to get them to pay you money. You guys come off sounding lazy. They suck at it, it’s too slow and hard to teach them to do it right, they don’t care, so screw it.

You guys need to read the New Rules of Lifting or Women by Lou Schuler, Alwyn Cosgrove and Cassandra Forsythe. They are all contributors here. It’s a good book.

But you’ll probably just carry on as you have been because you JUST DON’T GET IT!

Sorry for the not so great tone of this but I’m a little pissed. However that does not make it OK. I just hope you will reconsider your motives and practices as trainers. Give yourselves and your clients a little more effort, consideration and credit. Don’t fall into the trap of a few bad experiences causing you to see everyone in the same negative light. People tend to live up to expectations. Probably because we treat them poorly if we think less of them. Look for the best in them and yourself. I guess I’ve been doing the same. Refusing to get a trainer out of fear they would suck : ) Now I’m going to see if I can find a coach like Christian or Alwyn. You will see what you look for.[/quote]

Ok so you are 41 years old and you read a book. Week 1 You go max out ATG and on deadlifts (did you have some one helping you?) You got 105lbs and 115lbs nice job! Curious whats your bodyweight since you are throwing around numbers.

Your on a 3x10 program with compound lifts. Sounds like a hypertrophy program. Are you trying to gain size? You say decent form, but is decent safe??? The only way to know is for you to film both your dead and your squats and post since you can’t ask a “trainer” because they might suck.

I know the idea is scarier for poeple to judge you online but less scarier then a damaged disc in your back. The problem is this forum is a lot of text and a few photos, but throw a video up there and everyone jumps on a bandwagon. Prove me and Nominal Prospect wrong.

Show us that it is possible for a new lifter to handle such loads with safe form. If not you have 3 choices. Use only machines like Nominal Prospect says. You will see physique changes, you may get bored, you may get some minimal joint pain, but if you continue you will see changes (not just feel better).

Or you continue to lift with decent form and work on both improving your form and improving your strength like I have my clients do. You may just want to rewrite your program based on your specific needs. You will also see changes.

Or you can go back to the drawing board and practice with just the bar til you are 100% in the safe form (if it exists) and then continue to progress. You probably wont see any changes until you get back to the loads you are using now.

the last option is not post the video and roll the dice.

-Ali Ghavami

BA Rutgers, NSCA (CSCS & CPT*) I think may CPT might have just expired. Celebrity Trainer (Stil don’t see how thats makes a difference) Trainer of count them 3 National Level Athletes… and most importantly “Personal Trainer”

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If a client can’t hold a descent arch while doing deads with 135, would it be WRONG to drop it down to say 95lbs, use some boxes to raise the bar to 45lb plate-height and start them there?

I’ll still have my women use 135+ if they can’t pull it (correctly) from the floor. The difference is we’ll do it in the rack at say, knee-height where it’s much easier to hold the right positions. This way, they get the full pulls from the floor yet get the feel and benefits of heavier weight with the rack pulls.

What ends up happening is that they get so strong on the rack-pulls that it makes it much easier to hold that arch off the floor.

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[quote]Bratt wrote:

The problem with the two of you is it’s all about you! You need to EDUCATE your clients! Not just do whatever it takes to get them to pay you money. You guys come off sounding lazy. They suck at it, it’s too slow and hard to teach them to do it right, they don’t care, so screw it.

You guys need to read the New Rules of Lifting or Women by Lou Schuler, Alwyn Cosgrove and Cassandra Forsythe. They are all contributors here. It’s a good book.

But you’ll probably just carry on as you have been because you JUST DON’T GET IT!
[/quote]

Yup, you got us. You nailed it. All we want is their money, and we will do anything we can to get it. So our degrees, certifications, experience, and continuous education was all for nothing. Let me throw all that away and just collect money from clients whom I might injure, but who cares. Hey,let’s just keep adding weight with no regard for technique. Ok, yes that’s us.

That’s why we have been doing this for several years, with a consistent client base. You think we would have clients stick with us for years, if they thought all we wanted was their money? Clients stick with us - because we produce results. Doing heavy training - under our supervision, has made this happen.

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[quote]kaeosali wrote:
Ok so you are 41 years old and you read a book. Week 1 You go max out ATG and on deadlifts (did you have some one helping you?) You got 105lbs and 115lbs nice job! Curious whats your bodyweight since you are throwing around numbers.
[/quote]

What do you mean did I have someone helping me? I have strong legs because for a while I was carrying around almost 100lbs of fat! I’ve lost 60 so far (before I started lifting weights) and have another 30 to 40 to go. Read my profile or my blog http://www.brattland.com for more info.

I am following the Alwyn Cosgrove 6 month program from the book New Rules of Lifting for Women. Alwyn describes it as a “general fitness” program. I take that to mean it covers a little of everything. Strength, hypertrophy, endurance, etc.

I’m not afraid of people’s judgement. If I thought I was lacking or having trouble I would have posted a video right away. Yes, safe and decent form. I educated myself by researching for 3 months before I even touched a weight. Read literally hundreds of articles and watched dozens of videos. I practiced with bodyweight, then the bar and then added weight slowly. Went with a friend who is also doing the program a few times so we could practice form together and critique it. There are mirrors in the gym. Posting a video or asking a trainer are not the only way to know. I will post a video but I doubt it will be before this thread dies.

You posted a video on a forum and people discussed it. Granted, it sometimes got a little heated, you got defensive and then it went downhill from there. Don’t disregard everything said because a few things pissed you off. Wait a week and then go back and read what at least anything CT said. He remained calm, professional and diplomatic. The guy knows his shit like nobody else here.

That’s the point! YOU need to prove yourself and Nominal Prospect wrong. Go back and approach things differently. Believe it can be done and it will be done! You are not trying to turn water into wine! You are just choosing to take a more positive, educational, healthy and safe approach.

Sorry but I still disagree. I will rise to your challenge if you rise to mine! I will get video up here and on my blog in the next week or two. You can easily check my blog on a regular basis. Read New Rules of Lifting for Women. Then pick just one of your new clients and give them that book and follow at least Stage 1 with them. I bet they have the same if not better success than I. Then I will be proven right. BTW, there is no such thing is 100% safe form. I aim for GOOD and safe form.

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[quote]derek wrote:
If a client can’t hold a descent arch while doing deads with 135, would it be WRONG to drop it down to say 95lbs, use some boxes to raise the bar to 45lb plate-height and start them there?[/quote]

not wrong we do that all the time. I like the fact that you do use the boxes to raise it to a 45lb plate-height. I usually set them on the rack at the lowest level and have them stand on a 2" platform when we teach it. You act like all we do is heavy lifting here and tell them good. Have you ever maxed on deadlifts? What we say isn’t always what we are thinking. Sometimes we are cheering there effort and then we go back and tell them there mistakes. We have an amazing retention rate. Clients will tell us there goals and we tell them realistic goals (sometimes more than they are looking for) and we reach those goals.

Also I know CT says it only takes 1 inury, I agree but I am not lying about my hours. I am not lying about my club hours. So if you are looking at about 5000 for the club. about 4000 for me before I opend the club another 2500 for my partner. You are thats more than 11,000 hours with no inuries. (1 calf strain and 1 hamstring pull (during sprints and clients were warned that sometimes this may happen and that they are crossing the line between personal training and sport, they are also told that when they attempt max lifts, and a 1 issue with elbow tendinitus). Thats a lot of hours. For you guys that are not trainers you’ld have to work out for almost 16 years 2 hours a day everyday.

A variety of other sports are ranked below, with the number of injuries per 1000 hours of activity in parentheses (‘Injuries in Recreational Adult Fitness Activities,’ The American Journal of Sports Medicine, vol. 21 (3), pp. 461-467, 1993).

  1. Alpine skiing (8)
  2. Rowing machine exercise (6)
  3. Treadmill walking or jogging (6)
  4. Tennis (5)
  5. Dancing classes (5)
  6. Resistance training with weight machines (4)
  7. Resistance training with free weights (4)
  8. Outdoor cycling (3.5)
  9. Stationary cycle exercise (2)
  10. Stair climbing (2)
  11. Walking (2)

Statistacly we should have around 46 inuries. Interesting the machines and the free weights are equally dangerous. Our rate is about .4 / per thousand hours

I’m sure the rate is much higher at the elite and professional athlete level why I still stress form is more so important at higher levels. Speaking from experience and data.

[quote]derek wrote:
I’ll still have my women use 135+ if they can’t pull it (correctly) from the floor. The difference is we’ll do it in the rack at say, knee-height where it’s much easier to hold the right positions. This way, they get the full pulls from the floor yet get the feel and benefits of heavier weight with the rack pulls.

What ends up happening is that they get so strong on the rack-pulls that it makes it much easier to hold that arch off the floor.[/quote]

Not a fan of that. I find it puts too much of a moment on the back when it is at knee hight. I’ll do it at high shin or low thigh but not knee height.

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You quoted me in your post and then said/asked this…

[quote]kaeosali wrote:
You act like all we do is heavy lifting here and tell them good. Have you ever maxed on deadlifts? [/quote]

I’m guessing you are referring to someone else with that? Or I HOPE you were.

A “moment” is a tendency to produce motion about an axis. How exactly are you using that term here? Also, you seem to think below knee height is safe, above knee height is safe but the height I chose to use is unsafe?

Is it possible you were just dying to use that term and I gave you the chance?

187

[quote]derek wrote:
You quoted me in your post and then said/asked this…

kaeosali wrote:
You act like all we do is heavy lifting here and tell them good. Have you ever maxed on deadlifts?

I’m guessing you are referring to someone else with that? Or I HOPE you were.

[/quote]

mostly everyone

[quote]derek wrote:
Not a fan of that. I find it puts too much of a moment on the back when it is at knee hight. I’ll do it at high shin or low thigh but not knee height.

A “moment” is a tendency to produce motion about an axis. How exactly are you using that term here? Also, you seem to think below knee height is safe, above knee height is safe but the height I chose to use is unsafe?

Is it possible you were just dying to use that term and I gave you the chance?

[/quote]

I’m home now, the best I got on this computer is MS Paint.

Should I explain more or do you get it?

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[quote]kaeosali wrote:

I’m home now, the best I got on this computer is MS Paint.

Should I explain more or do you get it?

[/quote]

Holy crap! Is that the best you could do to explain how you used “moment” in your post?

I don’t need a 1st grade quality drawing, just some well written explaination will do. I’m ok with text, really.

I’ll be sure to print that cartoon out and post it in front of my rack though.

I’m sure your clients would approve.

But just remember, I was the only guy trying to give you some credit in the beginning.

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[quote]kaeosali wrote:
Should I explain more or do you get it?

[/quote]

Are you trying to say that the pelvis is farther away from the bar at knee height than either above or below?

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[quote]derek wrote:
kaeosali wrote:

I’m home now, the best I got on this computer is MS Paint.

Should I explain more or do you get it?

Holy crap! Is that the best you could do to explain how you used “moment” in your post?

I don’t need a 1st grade quality drawing, just some well written explaination will do. I’m ok with text, really.

I’ll be sure to print that cartoon out and post it in front of my rack though.

I’m sure your clients would approve.

But just remember, I was the only guy trying to give you some credit in the beginning.
[/quote]

Don’t take the drawing the wrong way its the best I can do on ms paint in a fix wasn’t meant as a shot at you. Thats at least a 3rd grade drawing I worked hard to get the proportions close to mine. For the most part when i do my rack pulls and set it at knee hight its uncomfortable.

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Alright kaeosali, I’ve added a video taken today to my profile. Have at it. Remember, I do not have a trainer or coach and am not one myself. Because you are you’re held to a higher standard as you should be. I’m not posting my video and asking for feedback.

I’m only posting to support the claims I made. You did post a video and with no explanation and open the door to feedback. All we had to go on was that video and based on that I will quote what I said before:

I wish you and your clients a healthy and strong future.

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[quote]DanErickson wrote:
Why are these people coming onto our forums looking for our approval in the first place if they already think they are so great?[/quote]

Quite possibly to improve their own website’s Google ranking.

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The thing that bothers me in this thread is that the trainer disregards long-term joint health in order to get motivating short-term results. Sacrificing the future for the present.

This is not necessary, let alone desirable.

Generalizations are dangerous, but inexperienced females are LESS likely to ego lift. If properly educated, I think most females would be glad to perfect their form on bodyweight squats, or single-leg squats. The trainer can motivate perfect form by counting ONLY perfect reps.

That sends a strong message about what the goal should be. Progression can be measured by increasing ROM and/or increasing the number of perfect reps. The trainee can also get some gratification from the size of the weight with some upper-body exercises where it doesn’t take as long to develop good form.

It does take more patience and focus to work on perfect form, but you CAN get visible results. In some ways you can get better results because by changing your form, you recruit weak areas, like glutes, much more effectively.

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[quote]andersons wrote:
The thing that bothers me in this thread is that the trainer disregards long-term joint health in order to get motivating short-term results. Sacrificing the future for the present.

This is not necessary, let alone desirable.

Generalizations are dangerous, but inexperienced females are LESS likely to ego lift. If properly educated, I think most females would be glad to perfect their form on bodyweight squats, or single-leg squats. The trainer can motivate perfect form by counting ONLY perfect reps. That sends a strong message about what the goal should be. Progression can be measured by increasing ROM and/or increasing the number of perfect reps. The trainee can also get some gratification from the size of the weight with some upper-body exercises where it doesn’t take as long to develop good form.

It does take more patience and focus to work on perfect form, but you CAN get visible results. In some ways you can get better results because by changing your form, you recruit weak areas, like glutes, much more effectively.[/quote]

you make some valid points but you are assuming we don’t do any of the above listed recommendations. Disregarding joint health is also another assumption we also take time to reinforce joint strength at different angles and use mobility exercises to increase range of motion.

Although CT feels form is more important at the recreational level with minimal loads, I sill feel its way more important at the elite level with maximal loads.

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I think the DL’s in the video turned everyone negative on you. The Pull Up and Squats were great. Who cares if the one girl wasn’t doing full range on the Pull Ups. It’s probably safer that way anyway. I only saw one girl break form on the Squats. She lost it on her second rep. Her third rep, she clearly made an effort to get her form back, failed, then the trainer stepped in and stopped it. Nothing wrong with that.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) you did include the Deadlifts and you do deserve ridicule for the form on those. Not meaning to beat a dead horse at this point. I’m sure you’ve got the idea you need to work on you’re DL training.

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my point exactly. If CT came out and said the deads need work, do this this and that, that would be understandable. He came at us and called out everything from “hip movement” on a bench press to forward lean and “tail under” on the squat.

Then everyone is like yada yada their form is horrible and we are bad trainers. Everyone from a HS kid to middle age women who just started worked out were suddenly experts (there were 2 of them).

I give credit to Bratt for taking the time to video tape her deads and squats and because she did that she will benifit greatly.

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It doesn’t take an expert to see the form errors your teaching.

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final video w/ music

thanks to all those who were helpful

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the form in those squats was especially crappy bratt.

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Thanks superthrustjon : ) If only I had a trainer like kaeosali…

NOTE TO FUTURE READERS of this thread:
The video originally posted at the beginning of this thread is no longer there. Kaeosali has changed it to an edited version. You will never see what we, the participants in this thread up until now, saw. I think it’s only fair to make that clear.

No, I’m not going to bother to point out the differences.