Vert/Speed Training Thread

Training
321

[quote]DjSm28 wrote:
So size gains are more important then strength gains as far as running and jumping? I guess stuff like westside and all that other ME effort stuff could be used to get stronger in the weightroom, then when you go back to the higher stuff, you will be able to use more weight for your reps and it will make you improve more. I thought running and jumping was all about relative strength though? How come getting crazy strong at the squat, while staying the same weight, but also practicing your running and jumping wouldnt make you significantly faster?[/quote]

if your muscles are bigger you’ll be stronger in a way that helps your speed and hops.
Bigger msucles transfer over to all movements, but a bigger squat from just getting better at squatting won’t.

If relative strength improves because your muscles got bigger, while you get leaner, so you stayed at the same weight and obviously get stronger due to the msucles getting bigger, then performance will improve

if no changes are made fat wise, or muscle wise, but you got better at squatting. Your perfomance won’t improve.

Neural adaptions are movement and skill specific.
There is a wattage limit per pound of muscle, so the only to get more of that is get the muscles bigger.

322

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
DjSm28 wrote:
So size gains are more important then strength gains as far as running and jumping? I guess stuff like westside and all that other ME effort stuff could be used to get stronger in the weightroom, then when you go back to the higher stuff, you will be able to use more weight for your reps and it will make you improve more. I thought running and jumping was all about relative strength though? How come getting crazy strong at the squat, while staying the same weight, but also practicing your running and jumping wouldnt make you significantly faster?

if your muscles are bigger you’ll be stronger in a way that helps your speed and hops.
Bigger msucles transfer over to all movements, but a bigger squat from just getting better at squatting won’t.

If relative strength improves because your muscles got bigger, while you get leaner, so you stayed at the same weight and obviously get stronger due to the msucles getting bigger, then performance will improve

if no changes are made fat wise, or muscle wise, but you got better at squatting. Your perfomance won’t improve.

Neural adaptions are movement and skill specific.
There is a wattage limit per pound of muscle, so the only to get more of that is get the muscles bigger.[/quote]

I see where you’re coming from, but I’m just wondering, wouldn’t it make sense to have a westside type training system phase when wanting to improve the squat(which personally has worked best for me as far as increasing my strength as far as I’ve tried)? That way when you do drop back down to something like 3x5, you’ll be able to use more weight and that’d stimulate more muscle damage which would lead to more strength and muscle gain?

323

[quote]DjSm28 wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
DjSm28 wrote:
So size gains are more important then strength gains as far as running and jumping? I guess stuff like westside and all that other ME effort stuff could be used to get stronger in the weightroom, then when you go back to the higher stuff, you will be able to use more weight for your reps and it will make you improve more. I thought running and jumping was all about relative strength though? How come getting crazy strong at the squat, while staying the same weight, but also practicing your running and jumping wouldnt make you significantly faster?

if your muscles are bigger you’ll be stronger in a way that helps your speed and hops.
Bigger msucles transfer over to all movements, but a bigger squat from just getting better at squatting won’t.

If relative strength improves because your muscles got bigger, while you get leaner, so you stayed at the same weight and obviously get stronger due to the msucles getting bigger, then performance will improve

if no changes are made fat wise, or muscle wise, but you got better at squatting. Your perfomance won’t improve.

Neural adaptions are movement and skill specific.
There is a wattage limit per pound of muscle, so the only to get more of that is get the muscles bigger.

I see where you’re coming from, but I’m just wondering, wouldn’t it make sense to have a westside type training system phase when wanting to improve the squat(which personally has worked best for me as far as increasing my strength as far as I’ve tried)? That way when you do drop back down to something like 3x5, you’ll be able to use more weight and that’d stimulate more muscle damage which would lead to more strength and muscle gain?
[/quote]

if your bigger your stronger, if your stronger your bigger :wink:

notice once you can’t gain any more muscle, because you have topped out the max your testosterone levels can support, your strength gains stall?
And why do begineers gain strength fast? because they gain muscle pretty quickly too.
Rate of raw strength gain mirrors that of muscle gain

And it’s not like you need to gain heaps of muscle to increase strength for athletic goals. Grab 2lbs of steak and see how much muscle that is… That usually takes quite a lot of time to build. Slap that on your legs and hips, and your squat will jump up by a significant amount

muscle → strength → power

324

Col, I decided to do work my bball jumping and work my way up to a slamdunk :smiley:

5’10 on what I think is a 10ft rim, need to clarify I grabed the rim 30x, didn’t miss it once. Grabbed a few times with my left also.

I’ll grab some video next week. Felt BAD ASS TO GRAB it so consistently. Only a month ago I was able to touch the rim from a standing jump, and not touch it from a running jump.

My running jump improved a bit, the times I planted and jumped through with the run I noticed an extra few inches :D, just that extra pop. But most of the time I barely jumped higher if not lower then my two foot take off. A mate who isn’t the most powerful guy is about 5-6inches from a two foot standing jump can touch the rim with his run up. His technique is a lot better then mine and he is really gaining on his run up. Man when I actually start getting better at my running two foot jump I should be able to dunk.

I’m at my heaviest also and not that much stronger relative to when I was 85-86kg. Not leaner also. But more a bit more powerful.

Hey can I have some critques when I get my videos up. Theres a bball guy there and he has already helped me when I timed it right. I dont plant well, I slow down in to my plant, wheres other guys I’ve seen run through their plant and I don’t think I’m using my arms well on the way up. He was telling me to dip lower when I plant, he was saying if your strong you should dip lower in the plant to explode up.

Man I’m pumped from being able to grab the rim properly :smiley: tonights 80% (150kg) x 6reps x 6reps of the Russian. Hoping to get 195kg from 187kg after the next 4 weeks :D, not long before I hit the big 200kg.

Col you back squated 540lbs?! SURELY you must have had a fat vert from such a big squat?

Koing

325

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
DjSm28 wrote:
So size gains are more important then strength gains as far as running and jumping? I guess stuff like westside and all that other ME effort stuff could be used to get stronger in the weightroom, then when you go back to the higher stuff, you will be able to use more weight for your reps and it will make you improve more. I thought running and jumping was all about relative strength though? How come getting crazy strong at the squat, while staying the same weight, but also practicing your running and jumping wouldnt make you significantly faster?

if your muscles are bigger you’ll be stronger in a way that helps your speed and hops.
Bigger msucles transfer over to all movements, but a bigger squat from just getting better at squatting won’t.

If relative strength improves because your muscles got bigger, while you get leaner, so you stayed at the same weight and obviously get stronger due to the msucles getting bigger, then performance will improve

if no changes are made fat wise, or muscle wise, but you got better at squatting. Your perfomance won’t improve.

Neural adaptions are movement and skill specific.
There is a wattage limit per pound of muscle, so the only to get more of that is get the muscles bigger.[/quote]

If you you get better at squatting then changes were made, regardless of the reading on the scale. You’ve got some interesting ideas but some of your shit is pretty out there.

326

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
DjSm28 wrote:
So size gains are more important then strength gains as far as running and jumping? I guess stuff like westside and all that other ME effort stuff could be used to get stronger in the weightroom, then when you go back to the higher stuff, you will be able to use more weight for your reps and it will make you improve more. I thought running and jumping was all about relative strength though? How come getting crazy strong at the squat, while staying the same weight, but also practicing your running and jumping wouldnt make you significantly faster?

if your muscles are bigger you’ll be stronger in a way that helps your speed and hops.
Bigger msucles transfer over to all movements, but a bigger squat from just getting better at squatting won’t.

If relative strength improves because your muscles got bigger, while you get leaner, so you stayed at the same weight and obviously get stronger due to the msucles getting bigger, then performance will improve

if no changes are made fat wise, or muscle wise, but you got better at squatting. Your perfomance won’t improve.

Neural adaptions are movement and skill specific.
There is a wattage limit per pound of muscle, so the only to get more of that is get the muscles bigger.

If you you get better at squatting then changes were made, regardless of the reading on the scale. You’ve got some interesting ideas but some of your shit is pretty out there.[/quote]

Let me give you an example on what Col is trying to say.
Say I want to drive faster I measure this by seeing how fast I get from my house to my school. My time is 10mins. One day I found a short cut and my time was brought down to 9 mins. This doesn’t mean I got better at driving.

Compare this with wanting to jump higher. Hence I want to get stronger so I keep practicing 1rep max squats and got better by 20lbs but this was all through getting better at squatting not getting stronger. So my VJ didn’t go up.
This is probably why I increased my squat by over 45lbs (it’s over 2xbw now) but my VJ is only 28inches. While increasing my weight by a pound.

327

[quote]Koing wrote:
Col, I decided to do work my bball jumping and work my way up to a slamdunk :smiley:

5’10 on what I think is a 10ft rim, need to clarify I grabed the rim 30x, didn’t miss it once. Grabbed a few times with my left also.

I’ll grab some video next week. Felt BAD ASS TO GRAB it so consistently. Only a month ago I was able to touch the rim from a standing jump, and not touch it from a running jump.

My running jump improved a bit, the times I planted and jumped through with the run I noticed an extra few inches :D, just that extra pop. But most of the time I barely jumped higher if not lower then my two foot take off. A mate who isn’t the most powerful guy is about 5-6inches from a two foot standing jump can touch the rim with his run up. His technique is a lot better then mine and he is really gaining on his run up. Man when I actually start getting better at my running two foot jump I should be able to dunk.

I’m at my heaviest also and not that much stronger relative to when I was 85-86kg. Not leaner also. But more a bit more powerful.

Hey can I have some critques when I get my videos up. Theres a bball guy there and he has already helped me when I timed it right. I dont plant well, I slow down in to my plant, wheres other guys I’ve seen run through their plant and I don’t think I’m using my arms well on the way up. He was telling me to dip lower when I plant, he was saying if your strong you should dip lower in the plant to explode up.

Man I’m pumped from being able to grab the rim properly :smiley: tonights 80% (150kg) x 6reps x 6reps of the Russian. Hoping to get 195kg from 187kg after the next 4 weeks :D, not long before I hit the big 200kg.

Col you back squated 540lbs?! SURELY you must have had a fat vert from such a big squat?

Koing[/quote]

It just takes practise man. That’s what plyos are for basicly, skill training. Jump practise/plyos, they’re all do the same thin. Read that new Kelly Baggett interview in my profile blog

no I don’t backsquat 540, I was quoting Thomas White… he just got signed by the Ravens in the NFL

328

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
DjSm28 wrote:
So size gains are more important then strength gains as far as running and jumping? I guess stuff like westside and all that other ME effort stuff could be used to get stronger in the weightroom, then when you go back to the higher stuff, you will be able to use more weight for your reps and it will make you improve more. I thought running and jumping was all about relative strength though? How come getting crazy strong at the squat, while staying the same weight, but also practicing your running and jumping wouldnt make you significantly faster?

if your muscles are bigger you’ll be stronger in a way that helps your speed and hops.
Bigger msucles transfer over to all movements, but a bigger squat from just getting better at squatting won’t.

If relative strength improves because your muscles got bigger, while you get leaner, so you stayed at the same weight and obviously get stronger due to the msucles getting bigger, then performance will improve

if no changes are made fat wise, or muscle wise, but you got better at squatting. Your perfomance won’t improve.

Neural adaptions are movement and skill specific.
There is a wattage limit per pound of muscle, so the only to get more of that is get the muscles bigger.

If you you get better at squatting then changes were made, regardless of the reading on the scale. You’ve got some interesting ideas but some of your shit is pretty out there.[/quote]

There is skill and timing in lifting heavy weights. That’s why powerlifters do the stuff they do. Just like in any type of movement, the more you practise, the better you get at it. Up to a point, after that is honed, the only way you get stronger is to get the muscles larger.

You tend see this sort of thing in beginners and anytime you start doing a new exercise, and start lifting in higher frequency etc

Sometimes you’ll have people who have natural 33-34 inch vertical jumps. The type of hops someone with a 2xBW oly squat will have.

When these people start squatting they might do 1.5xBW. After a few months they might reach 2xBW, and they will see no gain in their vertical. I see this all the time. And they conclude squatting does not help their hops, when infact all they were doing is improving thier ability to display what they had naturally. But if they continue to drive it up to 2.5xBW with larger muscles to go with it, they will see an improvement.

329

You’ll get Vert bros that claim - I can jump 33 inches at 150lbs, but can only squat 135lbs. Ain’t I special.
But they will find their hops won’t improve a bit even when they get their squat to 300lbs.
They’re just learning to display what their body can already do, due to genetics and nuture.

330

I understand what you’re saying, have the whole time. Just not buying it fully.

331

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
I understand what you’re saying, have the whole time. Just not buying it fully.[/quote]

What is your take on it?

332

I’ve seen it happen quite a lot, and from emails of other people to me asking why this is happening all the time.

333

[quote]Lift or die wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:
I understand what you’re saying, have the whole time. Just not buying it fully.

What is your take on it?

[/quote]

Using a football player who’s juicing as an example doesn’t apply to your average performance enthusiast. I understand -and support- that adding a little muscle to the right places can definitely benefit certain athletic endeavors, but that alone isn’t going to put you “over the top”. Focusing on getting stronger at a certain lift like the squat in the 3-5 range and then performing assistance stuff in a moderate rep range to “armor” up the supporting musculature makes sense to me. Abandoning ME training in favor of getting stronger in the 8-10 range to improve athletic performance doesn’t.

I myself might be a different case as I was able to dunk before ever touching a weight and doing no jump training other than playing, but at my all time best vert all I did for legs was squat [with 3 sets of 8 for hams and calves] 2x a week for 8 sets of 3 with 2 minutes rest and try to add weight each workout. My bodyweight didn’t change, I didn’t get leaner or more vascular, just stronger at the squat and I put a good 2" on my vert in a month. I played ball maybe 3 times during that month, so I definitely wasn’t going apeshit on the jumping. I also did the same thing for bench and put 10lbs on my bench in that month, but that’s a whole other discussion, haha.

334

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
I understand what you’re saying, have the whole time. Just not buying it fully.[/quote]

That makes two of us. I am not totally disagreeing with Colin, but I think:

Bigger muscle = better jump

Only hits about 80% of the equation, which, granted, is more than many athletes get. However, I think it is neglecting some aspects of it and I do think there is merit to heavy (~90% 1RM) lifting and plyos.

335

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:
I understand what you’re saying, have the whole time. Just not buying it fully.

That makes two of us. I am not totally disagreeing with Colin, but I think:

Bigger muscle = better jump

Only hits about 80% of the equation, which, granted, is more than many athletes get. However, I think it is neglecting some aspects of it and I do think there is merit to heavy (~90% 1RM) lifting and plyos.[/quote]

Can’t comment on the plyos 'cause I have no real experience with them, but agree fully with your assessment. I think Colin hits the mark with a lot of his stuff, but things like the “if your squat is this you’ll jump this as long as this happens while you’re doing this” formula
don’t make a lot of sense to me.

336

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Lift or die wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:
I understand what you’re saying, have the whole time. Just not buying it fully.

What is your take on it?

Using a football player who’s juicing as an example doesn’t apply to your average performance enthusiast. I understand -and support- that adding a little muscle to the right places can definitely benefit certain athletic endeavors, but that alone isn’t going to put you “over the top”. Focusing on getting stronger at a certain lift like the squat in the 3-5 range and then performing assistance stuff in a moderate rep range to “armor” up the supporting musculature makes sense to me. Abandoning ME training in favor of getting stronger in the 8-10 range to improve athletic performance doesn’t.

I myself might be a different case as I was able to dunk before ever touching a weight and doing no jump training other than playing, but at my all time best vert all I did for legs was squat [with 3 sets of 8 for hams and calves] 2x a week for 8 sets of 3 with 2 minutes rest and try to add weight each workout. My bodyweight didn’t change, I didn’t get leaner or more vascular, just stronger at the squat and I put a good 2" on my vert in a month. I played ball maybe 3 times during that month, so I definitely wasn’t going apeshit on the jumping. I also did the same thing for bench and put 10lbs on my bench in that month, but that’s a whole other discussion, haha.[/quote]

O ok cool

337

I don’t think he’s meaning you should not do heavy lifting. It’s just easier to get the volume needed for growth doing sets of 8 reps. Actually 8x2 should be better for hypertrophy than 2x8 because you should be able to do more weight with sets of 2.

338

I agree with the T White quote.

339

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
Koing wrote:
Col, I decided to do work my bball jumping and work my way up to a slamdunk :smiley:

5’10 on what I think is a 10ft rim, need to clarify I grabed the rim 30x, didn’t miss it once. Grabbed a few times with my left also.

I’ll grab some video next week. Felt BAD ASS TO GRAB it so consistently. Only a month ago I was able to touch the rim from a standing jump, and not touch it from a running jump.

My running jump improved a bit, the times I planted and jumped through with the run I noticed an extra few inches :D, just that extra pop. But most of the time I barely jumped higher if not lower then my two foot take off. A mate who isn’t the most powerful guy is about 5-6inches from a two foot standing jump can touch the rim with his run up. His technique is a lot better then mine and he is really gaining on his run up. Man when I actually start getting better at my running two foot jump I should be able to dunk.

I’m at my heaviest also and not that much stronger relative to when I was 85-86kg. Not leaner also. But more a bit more powerful.

Hey can I have some critques when I get my videos up. Theres a bball guy there and he has already helped me when I timed it right. I dont plant well, I slow down in to my plant, wheres other guys I’ve seen run through their plant and I don’t think I’m using my arms well on the way up. He was telling me to dip lower when I plant, he was saying if your strong you should dip lower in the plant to explode up.

Man I’m pumped from being able to grab the rim properly :smiley: tonights 80% (150kg) x 6reps x 6reps of the Russian. Hoping to get 195kg from 187kg after the next 4 weeks :D, not long before I hit the big 200kg.

Col you back squated 540lbs?! SURELY you must have had a fat vert from such a big squat?

Koing

It just takes practise man. That’s what plyos are for basicly, skill training. Jump practise/plyos, they’re all do the same thin. Read that new Kelly Baggett interview in my profile blog

no I don’t backsquat 540, I was quoting Thomas White… he just got signed by the Ravens in the NFL
[/quote]

I see mate. Yeah it’s a skill movement that I need to work on.

Koing

340

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
You’ll get Vert bros that claim - I can jump 33 inches at 150lbs, but can only squat 135lbs. Ain’t I special.
But they will find their hops won’t improve a bit even when they get their squat to 300lbs.
They’re just learning to display what their body can already do, due to genetics and nuture.[/quote]

lol