Vert/Speed Training Thread

[quote]nik133 wrote:
Hey Cool, I also have a question: What do you think of Complex Training? I am currently reading this book and will be finishing my First Cycle of Starting Strength in a Month and want to know if this is something that you would recommend for someone looking to build explosive power (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0873226437/ref=s9_simb_gw_xu_s0_p14_t1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=0GAQBDVS8E6N31S5AHZR&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938131&pf_rd_i=507846) I don’t mean this to be an advertisement, mods can remove the link once Cool answers.

Thanks
Nik[/quote]

waste of time, and the book is a waste of money - I have it :slight_smile:

Methods are many, principals are few…

get stronger/bigger, get lean and go practise the activity you wish to improve in

My reach is at the highest point ever, but I carry the most fat in the last 2 years. Sprinting I’m not happy with, it’s something I need to work on. Legs are still heavy from all the 10k running the last 7 days.

FS is at 95kg, Thursday…

Big front squat = vertical jump power

another strong 6’1" 240lb meathead showing his hops. Damn that’s a big front squat! Can’t tell if it’s 405 or 495lbs, but if its 495, that’s about 2xBW for 3 reps. And right where you’d expect a 40+ inch vertical jump person to be at according to my theory :sunglasses:

On the first jump, I thought, hmm doesn’t look like a 41 inch Vertical jump. But the 2nd jump from behind, look how high he gets his head to the rim, chin to bottom of the net. I figure he’d lose a few inches with the ball in his hand, but his VJ may have been combine measured, so real VJ is probably a few inches lower.

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
Big front squat = vertical jump power

another strong 6’1" 240lb meathead showing his hops. Damn that’s a big front squat! Can’t tell if it’s 405 or 495lbs, but if its 495, that’s about 2xBW for 3 reps. And right where you’d expect a 40+ inch vertical jump person to be at according to my theory :sunglasses:

On the first jump, I thought, hmm doesn’t look like a 41 inch Vertical jump. But the 2nd jump from behind, look how high he gets his head to the rim, chin to bottom of the net. I figure he’d lose a few inches with the ball in his hand, but his VJ may have been combine measured, so real VJ is probably a few inches lower.

Sick man, sick!

Col, how are your fronts coming along?

Koing

This is me at 5’9" [5’10" in shoes] and about 177lbs-

Have no idea what my current vert is, but at my prime was putting a 35" from a standstill and a 41.5" off of three steps. Had knee surgery in Feb. Do [and have never done] absolutely no jump training other than lifting and playing, but that’s am planning on changing that this evening.

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
This is me at 5’9" [5’10" in shoes] and about 177lbs-

Have no idea what my current vert is, but at my prime was putting a 35" from a standstill and a 41.5" off of three steps. Had knee surgery in Feb. Do [and have never done] absolutely no jump training other than lifting and playing, but that’s am planning on changing that this evening.[/quote]

mofo!

Sweet hops man!

Koing

[quote]Koing wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:
This is me at 5’9" [5’10" in shoes] and about 177lbs-

Have no idea what my current vert is, but at my prime was putting a 35" from a standstill and a 41.5" off of three steps. Had knee surgery in Feb. Do [and have never done] absolutely no jump training other than lifting and playing, but that’s am planning on changing that this evening.

mofo!

Sweet hops man!

Koing[/quote]

Thanks man. Have a vid of me jumping on the roof of my car [60-something inches] but can’t figure out how to post it. It’s on my youtube page.

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
This is me at 5’9" [5’10" in shoes] and about 177lbs-

Have no idea what my current vert is, but at my prime was putting a 35" from a standstill and a 41.5" off of three steps. Had knee surgery in Feb. Do [and have never done] absolutely no jump training other than lifting and playing, but that’s am planning on changing that this evening.[/quote]

sick man, looks good.

[quote]adarqui wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:
This is me at 5’9" [5’10" in shoes] and about 177lbs-

Have no idea what my current vert is, but at my prime was putting a 35" from a standstill and a 41.5" off of three steps. Had knee surgery in Feb. Do [and have never done] absolutely no jump training other than lifting and playing, but that’s am planning on changing that this evening.

sick man, looks good.
[/quote]

Thanks man. Been checking this thread off and on for awhile. Glad I finally have something to contribute, ha. The goal is to get back to doing 2-hand 360’s, tuck reverses, two-hand cock backs, shit like that. Based off of last night I’d guess I’m probably 4-5" off of my all time best. Sounds like a lot, but seeing as how I just came off of surgery and haven’t done shit for jumping I’m pretty confident I’ll get there and hopefully beyond. Just gotta ease into it. If anyone has advice and/or comments about all things jump related bring it. This thread is badass.

[quote]Koing wrote:

Col, how are your fronts coming along?

Koing[/quote]

Haven’t done any fronts quats in a while now
with my meniscus tear in my left knee, I think it would be pretty dicey to try em


Another video, this guy might be a member here :slight_smile:

5’10" 205lbs and 32 years old. He said he used to have a 45 inch running jump in high school.

Nice squatting in slippers ;D
Not bad hops after squatting!

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
adarqui wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:
This is me at 5’9" [5’10" in shoes] and about 177lbs-

Have no idea what my current vert is, but at my prime was putting a 35" from a standstill and a 41.5" off of three steps. Had knee surgery in Feb. Do [and have never done] absolutely no jump training other than lifting and playing, but that’s am planning on changing that this evening.

sick man, looks good.

Thanks man. Been checking this thread off and on for awhile. Glad I finally have something to contribute, ha. The goal is to get back to doing 2-hand 360’s, tuck reverses, two-hand cock backs, shit like that. Based off of last night I’d guess I’m probably 4-5" off of my all time best. Sounds like a lot, but seeing as how I just came off of surgery and haven’t done shit for jumping I’m pretty confident I’ll get there and hopefully beyond. Just gotta ease into it. If anyone has advice and/or comments about all things jump related bring it. This thread is badass.[/quote]

cool man, will be sick to see you get back to that level…

4-5" off your PB considering surgery is damn good… sounds like you are going to set a new PB once you get back to work :wink:

peace

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
Big front squat = vertical jump power

another strong 6’1" 240lb meathead showing his hops. Damn that’s a big front squat! Can’t tell if it’s 405 or 495lbs, but if its 495, that’s about 2xBW for 3 reps. And right where you’d expect a 40+ inch vertical jump person to be at according to my theory :sunglasses:

On the first jump, I thought, hmm doesn’t look like a 41 inch Vertical jump. But the 2nd jump from behind, look how high he gets his head to the rim, chin to bottom of the net. I figure he’d lose a few inches with the ball in his hand, but his VJ may have been combine measured, so real VJ is probably a few inches lower.

dude this guy is fucking motivation for me! He’s big, strong, and can fucking move!

[quote]adarqui wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:
adarqui wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:
This is me at 5’9" [5’10" in shoes] and about 177lbs-

Have no idea what my current vert is, but at my prime was putting a 35" from a standstill and a 41.5" off of three steps. Had knee surgery in Feb. Do [and have never done] absolutely no jump training other than lifting and playing, but that’s am planning on changing that this evening.

sick man, looks good.

Thanks man. Been checking this thread off and on for awhile. Glad I finally have something to contribute, ha. The goal is to get back to doing 2-hand 360’s, tuck reverses, two-hand cock backs, shit like that. Based off of last night I’d guess I’m probably 4-5" off of my all time best. Sounds like a lot, but seeing as how I just came off of surgery and haven’t done shit for jumping I’m pretty confident I’ll get there and hopefully beyond. Just gotta ease into it. If anyone has advice and/or comments about all things jump related bring it. This thread is badass.

cool man, will be sick to see you get back to that level…

4-5" off your PB considering surgery is damn good… sounds like you are going to set a new PB once you get back to work :wink:

peace[/quote]

Ha, that’s the goal. The 4-5" thing is based soley off of my uneducated guesses. Those dunks weren’t “max effort” jumps, but they weren’t lazy either. Did a shit ton of jumping tonight. Don’t even know if what I did can be considered plyos, just did what my buddy did. Jumped over boxes, on boxes and broad jumps the length of a basketball court. Not sure what or if the first few things we did even have a name, haha. Gonna be sore manana.

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
Koing wrote:

Col, how are your fronts coming along?

Koing

Haven’t done any fronts quats in a while now
with my meniscus tear in my left knee, I think it would be pretty dicey to try em


Another video, this guy might be a member here :slight_smile:

5’10" 205lbs and 32 years old. He said he used to have a 45 inch running jump in high school.

Nice squatting in slippers ;D
Not bad hops after squatting!

[/quote]

I had a meniscus injury also. Not sure if it was a tear, but I could barely turn or move my left knee side to side for weeks. I walked with a limp for 3 weeks and it took about 12 weeks to get over it. That was about a year ago. It sucked hard. I think the Dr said it was a grade 2 tear?

Man January I’ll have to work on my running jump! Surely I can get close if I up my technique and just practice it?!

Bad ass videos man, loving the videos your posting bro!

Koing

[quote]Koing wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
Koing wrote:

Col, how are your fronts coming along?

Koing

Haven’t done any fronts quats in a while now
with my meniscus tear in my left knee, I think it would be pretty dicey to try em


Another video, this guy might be a member here :slight_smile:

5’10" 205lbs and 32 years old. He said he used to have a 45 inch running jump in high school.

Nice squatting in slippers ;D
Not bad hops after squatting!

I had a meniscus injury also. Not sure if it was a tear, but I could barely turn or move my left knee side to side for weeks. I walked with a limp for 3 weeks and it took about 12 weeks to get over it. That was about a year ago. It sucked hard. I think the Dr said it was a grade 2 tear?

Man January I’ll have to work on my running jump! Surely I can get close if I up my technique and just practice it?!

Bad ass videos man, loving the videos your posting bro!

Koing[/quote]

yeah it’s been a bitch for me, I still can’t land without excessive pain, so no hard jumping for a while :frowning:

I think that guy is a lot stronger than his leg lifts indicate. He said he probably hasn’t squatted more than 20 times in the last 10 years :slight_smile:
He can bench 315x9+ so that gives you an idea of his strength potential and his 45 inch jump in high school. What you call natural strength.

I’ve always felt that strength gains via neural adaptations don’t help sports, your hops or speed, but muscle gains in the right place do. Neural adaptations and rate coding gains are movement and skill specific, while muscle gains are general

Nice Thomas White quote
T White is now on the Ravens in the NFL FYI - they’re a HIT team according to him :slight_smile:


Listen I’ve done it all: Westside, Gayle Hatch program, true ME work on bench and squat 2x a week, Poliquin, APRE, exotic Christian T type stuff in the weight room, etc. At the end of the day it doesn’t need to be rocket science. Practice your sport/activity as the primary stimulus, then go to the weight room and push your self with work in the 70-80% range. Don’t chase numbers in the weight room, this is coming from a guy who has squatted 540 and done nearly as much on the deadlift, it is a fruitless endeavor (ego aside). True ME work doesn’t have a place in the training of a team sport athlete or sprinter. From my experience all you are doing is getting better at lifting heavy weights, at the possible expense of your joints and tendons! Remember that the weight room is a means to an end!

Another thing I have found to hold true is Charlie’s (Charlie Francis) old standby: If it looks right, it flies right.

I can tell you that the guys with big glutes and hamstrings were always the fastest but not always the strongest, even pound for pound. My former teammates David Gettis comes to mind, built like TO at 6’3 220 with massive hamstrings and glutes but would often get out squatted by guys with much smaller muscles. But on the field he would blow all of them away, ran a 45.x 400m in high school and could jump out of the gym as well, he and I used to do dunk contests and it would draw a little crowd.

Basically he was a very strong guy who didn’t express it very well in a squat rack but did where it actually counted!

I think most people would be better off chasing larger muscles in the weight room rather than numbers, strap a few lbs. muscle on your glutes and hamstrings and I guarantee you’ll be a better athlete.

Here’s another anecdote that will make Colin smile:
A good friend of mine used to work exclusively with reps above 6 (mostly 8-10), aside from an occasional heavy triple on the bench. He played D1 ball with me and was a terror on special teams. His primary philosophy was “max effort” which to him meant going to near failure on his sets of 8-10 and his bread and butter was 3x10 on the bench with a very heavy weight and 4x8 on the squat, only adding weight when he was able to complete all the reps in every set. At the time (2005 or so) I thought his program was poor in comparison to something as “cutting edge” as Westside but now looking back he was maximally activating his fibers and working them in that state (the core tenet of DC, rest-pause, Myo-reps). The result was benching over 400, squatting over 500, cleaning 353, having a 36’’ CMJ and running a 4.45 despite rarely running outside of off-season. This was all at 6’3 215 and 6% BF.

Spring of 2008, he quit football after breaking his wrist pretty badly, he really devoted himself to working hard in the weight room and becoming absolutely freaky. He used split training but made sure he hit the bench and squat 2x a week. He did no plyometrics or running during this period but admittedly did use a popular OTC “supplement” by CEL. At the end of the training phase, 6-8 weeks, he was absolutely huge, 226-228 and leaner and more vascular with glutes and hamstrings that were gigantic. But the real surprise came when he returned from a workout and asked me to measure his vertical because he felt like he could fly. At this point I still believed in the “all show, no go” philosophy and figured that all the weight gain and lack of specific work would leave him well below his best CMJ. I was wrong…

He jumped 39’', 3 inches better than he ever did while training full time as a D1 college football player with OL’s, plyos, etc. He also did so while being heavier than ever.

That really opened my eyes and brought things full circle to the value of muscle in the right places. Many of you have come to a similar conclusion.

Practice your sport → Build more muscle in the primary muscles

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
I’ve always felt that strength gains via neural adaptations don’t help sports, your hops or speed, but muscle gains in the right place do. Neural adaptations and rate coding gains are movement and skill specific, while muscle gains are general

Nice Thomas White quote
T White is now on the Ravens in the NFL FYI - they’re a HIT team according to him :slight_smile:


Listen I’ve done it all: Westside, Gayle Hatch program, true ME work on bench and squat 2x a week, Poliquin, APRE, exotic Christian T type stuff in the weight room, etc. At the end of the day it doesn’t need to be rocket science. Practice your sport/activity as the primary stimulus, then go to the weight room and push your self with work in the 70-80% range. Don’t chase numbers in the weight room, this is coming from a guy who has squatted 540 and done nearly as much on the deadlift, it is a fruitless endeavor (ego aside). True ME work doesn’t have a place in the training of a team sport athlete or sprinter. From my experience all you are doing is getting better at lifting heavy weights, at the possible expense of your joints and tendons! Remember that the weight room is a means to an end!

Another thing I have found to hold true is Charlie’s (Charlie Francis) old standby: If it looks right, it flies right.

I can tell you that the guys with big glutes and hamstrings were always the fastest but not always the strongest, even pound for pound. My former teammates David Gettis comes to mind, built like TO at 6’3 220 with massive hamstrings and glutes but would often get out squatted by guys with much smaller muscles. But on the field he would blow all of them away, ran a 45.x 400m in high school and could jump out of the gym as well, he and I used to do dunk contests and it would draw a little crowd.

Basically he was a very strong guy who didn’t express it very well in a squat rack but did where it actually counted!

I think most people would be better off chasing larger muscles in the weight room rather than numbers, strap a few lbs. muscle on your glutes and hamstrings and I guarantee you’ll be a better athlete.

Here’s another anecdote that will make Colin smile:
A good friend of mine used to work exclusively with reps above 6 (mostly 8-10), aside from an occasional heavy triple on the bench. He played D1 ball with me and was a terror on special teams. His primary philosophy was “max effort” which to him meant going to near failure on his sets of 8-10 and his bread and butter was 3x10 on the bench with a very heavy weight and 4x8 on the squat, only adding weight when he was able to complete all the reps in every set. At the time (2005 or so) I thought his program was poor in comparison to something as “cutting edge” as Westside but now looking back he was maximally activating his fibers and working them in that state (the core tenet of DC, rest-pause, Myo-reps). The result was benching over 400, squatting over 500, cleaning 353, having a 36’’ CMJ and running a 4.45 despite rarely running outside of off-season. This was all at 6’3 215 and 6% BF.

Spring of 2008, he quit football after breaking his wrist pretty badly, he really devoted himself to working hard in the weight room and becoming absolutely freaky. He used split training but made sure he hit the bench and squat 2x a week. He did no plyometrics or running during this period but admittedly did use a popular OTC “supplement” by CEL. At the end of the training phase, 6-8 weeks, he was absolutely huge, 226-228 and leaner and more vascular with glutes and hamstrings that were gigantic. But the real surprise came when he returned from a workout and asked me to measure his vertical because he felt like he could fly. At this point I still believed in the “all show, no go” philosophy and figured that all the weight gain and lack of specific work would leave him well below his best CMJ. I was wrong…

He jumped 39’', 3 inches better than he ever did while training full time as a D1 college football player with OL’s, plyos, etc. He also did so while being heavier than ever.

That really opened my eyes and brought things full circle to the value of muscle in the right places. Many of you have come to a similar conclusion.

Practice your sport → Build more muscle in the primary muscles[/quote]

Thanks man that was really informative.

Looks like T-Nation has some seriuos trainers here great job Flash.
Gotta be da shoes!!!

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Looks like T-Nation has some seriuos trainers here great job Flash.
Gotta be da shoes!!![/quote]

Haha, Thanks man. My legs are absolutely killing me from the jumping yesterday. I mean, the muscles in the top of my feet are sore. I wasn’t even aware I had muscles in the top of my feet ‘til this morning. The tendons that connect my feet to my tibia feel like my girl was dead leggin’ me in my sleep! I’ll get vids of the jump stuff next week for advice/criticism.

Here’s a vid of me catching a self lob- Lob dunk - YouTube

Gonna be hard from the angle, but does anyone here wanna guess on how high I was? This wasn’t a max jump, but I’d kinda like a guage if ya’ll can. My standing reach is 7’6" on the dot shoeless, and I’d say my wrists were about 2-3" over the rim on this one.

So size gains are more important then strength gains as far as running and jumping? I guess stuff like westside and all that other ME effort stuff could be used to get stronger in the weightroom, then when you go back to the higher stuff, you will be able to use more weight for your reps and it will make you improve more. I thought running and jumping was all about relative strength though? How come getting crazy strong at the squat, while staying the same weight, but also practicing your running and jumping wouldnt make you significantly faster?