I weight 180lbs and squat 365lbs and box squat 350lbs. Do you think it would be possible for me to reach a 3xbw squat without putting on and weight? 540lbs squat seems so far away, but I’m hoping it’s possible. Any suggestions on the best way to reach that as well?
[quote]DjSm28 wrote:
I weight 180lbs and squat 365lbs and box squat 350lbs. Do you think it would be possible for me to reach a 3xbw squat without putting on and weight? 540lbs squat seems so far away, but I’m hoping it’s possible. Any suggestions on the best way to reach that as well?[/quote]
It is more dependent on your body composition, but it wouldn’t be easy by any means. In the SPF, there is a guy in the 165’s i think it is and he squats in the mid-5’s.
Why would you not want to gain any weight? Is it to stay in a weight class or other reasons?
Well my main goal is to become faster and jump higher because for the most part, I train for basketball so I concentrate more relative strength rather then absolute strength. I’m not pro, but it’s fun playing, and hopefully dominating in my rec league.
Since I’m not “genetically gifted” at putting force into the ground, I have to make up for it by working on my strength. This year’s goals are to get to the 300/400/500. And eventually, I want to hit that 3xbw like I said.
I’ve found that the higher my squat got, the faster I’ve ran and the higher I’ve jumped from a standstill, so I really want to get my squat up.
I seem to recall reading in Zatsiorsky’s Science and Practice of Strength Training that beyond a certain point, increasing your squat has a limited carryover to your sprinting speed and vertical jump. If you’re mostly concerned about your basketball performance, your energy might be better spent developing your RFD after a certain point. I’m not quite sure at what point this is, but I’d bet it’s below a 3xBW squat.
It’ll be easier to get to 3xBW when you gain weight by putting on muscle mass in your lower body.
5-7lbs of extra muscle mass in your hips and legs will go a long way to adding an extra plate on each side of the bar. It did for me in the last 7 months, squat went up about 80lbs 
I gained some fat and muscle, altogether about 16lbs, but most of that is fat gain from bulking. Waist went up 2.5 inches. Upper thigh went up 2 inches, and hips also went up 2+ inches, but again half of that is fat gain in each case.
Anytime you get significantly stronger, you’ve added muscle mass. Neural adaption will only go so far.
[quote]ctschneider wrote:
I seem to recall reading in Zatsiorsky’s Science and Practice of Strength Training that beyond a certain point, increasing your squat has a limited carryover to your sprinting speed and vertical jump. If you’re mostly concerned about your basketball performance, your energy might be better spent developing your RFD after a certain point. I’m not quite sure at what point this is, but I’d bet its below a 3xBW squat. [/quote]
i do agree to some point that there may/is a point where the stress of heavy squats takes away from the jump/sprint work. however i have never seen a legit study, however would like to see one if there is one. with so few 3 x bw squatters out there, its hard to say, and the range for indviduals would be so great that simply saying a given percentage of bodyweight has diminsishing returns seems unfair.
i am thinking of the number of 2-2.5 bw squatters i have seen, and what their results were with sprints and verts as their squats increased, and i cant say i remember one not improving on the sprints/ jumps. not saying it doesnt happen, just saying i have never seen it. usually though, the amount of training somebody has to put in to getting a squat that high, it would naturally take away from training their other traits (sprints and vert in an optimal way) but that is why doing so in conjucntion may not be a good idea.
meaning off season get squat up huge with short sprints and non fluff plyos, come back in season, put squat on maintaince and put the emphasis on the sprints and plyos. using such a method would obvioulsy make getting a 3x bw squat less likely but you get the point.
sorry for the rant, and i dont mean to shoot down your advice, as i think it may be sound, just giving an alternative approach.
AC
[quote]SquatDr wrote:
ctschneider wrote:
I seem to recall reading in Zatsiorsky’s Science and Practice of Strength Training that beyond a certain point, increasing your squat has a limited carryover to your sprinting speed and vertical jump. If you’re mostly concerned about your basketball performance, your energy might be better spent developing your RFD after a certain point. I’m not quite sure at what point this is, but I’d bet its below a 3xBW squat.
i do agree to some point that there may/is a point where the stress of heavy squats takes away from the jump/sprint work. however i have never seen a legit study, however would like to see one if there is one. with so few 3 x bw squatters out there, its hard to say, and the range for indviduals would be so great that simply saying a given percentage of bodyweight has diminsishing returns seems unfair. i am thinking of the number of 2-2.5 bw squatters i have seen, and what their results were with sprints and verts as their squats increased, and i cant say i remember one not improving on the sprints/ jumps. not saying it doesnt happen, just saying i have never seen it. usually though, the amount of training somebody has to put in to getting a squat that high, it would naturally take away from training their other traits (sprints and vert in an optimal way) but that is why doing so in conjucntion may not be a good idea. meaning off season get squat up huge with short sprints and non fluff plyos, come back in season, put squat on maintaince and put the emphasis on the sprints and plyos. using such a method would obvioulsy make getting a 3x bw squat less likely but you get the point.
sorry for the rant, and i dont mean to shoot down your advice, as i think it may be sound, just giving an alternative approach.
AC
[/quote]
Fair enough. There’s no reason not to shoot for 3xBW squat. And I really doubt that returns really start diminishing below a 2.5xBW squat and even above that there’s probably some carryover, just less and less. At some point (and I’m not quite sure exactly what point this is) you’re probably better of doing more plyos, oly lifts, and track work to improve your VJ and sprinting speed.
Anyway, since I’ve never seen a study, you’re right. It’s pure speculation.
I think that a 3xBW squat is almost overkill if your main goals are to become bigger, more explosive, and faster. Your main goals should be training for that and incorporating a variety or jumps, explosive leg training, and sprint drills.
I certainly do believe that if one person could squat 300 at 200 pounds and another could squat 400 at 200 pounds, the 400 pound squater would be more explosive; however, once one reaches the 2-2.5x BW, you already have a good base for increasing explosive power. That said, if your goal is to attain a 3xBW squat then go for it, but it just might not carry over to an increase in explosive power or speed as much as jumping, explosive exercise, and sprinting would be.
Good luck bro, I hope you achieve your goals.
[quote]SquatDr wrote:
usually though, the amount of training somebody has to put in to getting a squat that high, it would naturally take away from training their other traits (sprints and vert in an optimal way) but that is why doing so in conjucntion may not be a good idea. [/quote]
Agreed.
Unless you’re able to continually add the weight at a pretty steady pace (once you’ve surpassed 2.5x or even just 2x bw squat) then getting that up to 3x bw is going to require some time, planning, and work. IMO, enough to take away from progressing in jumping/sprinting.
I think AC hit the nail on the head, but hey man no one is saying don’t try it. Give it a shot and see what you can do.
Trust me 2xBW totally raw and as low as you can go, shoulder width stance is far from sufficient. I’m there now, a bit over that low bar full squat wise, and around that high bar olympic style, and I would say that’s the bare minimum.
According to my vertical jump formula, that’s only good for a 33-34 inch VJ. Which is good, but not enough for short dudes to sky
2.5xBW is where you should be heading to, and then that’s the lower end of the ideal point if you want to jump as high and acclerate as fast as your capable of.
If you want a 40 inch vertical, 2.5xBW full squat is where you want to be, and more if you want higher. In fact a lot of people are squatting more than this to jump 40 inches.
Really you want to be cranking out sets and reps with 2xBW. If you can do at least 8 reps with 2xBW all the way down and beltless, then that would be a good place to be as far as relative strength goes
I was thinking about focusing on the squat because I remembered in CoolColJ’s post a while back, a 2xbw squat was low 30’s(and i’m not even at that). I want AT LEAST a 36’’ vert eventually, so I was thinking I needed to get my squat up since I’m at 2xbw now. Also, I know that AC often talks about his correlation between his squat going up and his speed and vert improving. (BTW, if you’re reading this AC, this is Sachin.)
However, I do agree that I should be doing more RFD and plyos to let me jump higher and run faster. I suppose I could get to the 300/400/500 this year and then maintain strength for a while and shift over to explosive and reactive strength after that. The 3xbw might be an eventual goal as well. Maybe I’ll try to hit that by the time i’m 27(i’m 23 right now.)
[quote]ctschneider wrote:
I seem to recall reading in Zatsiorsky’s Science and Practice of Strength Training that beyond a certain point, increasing your squat has a limited carryover to your sprinting speed and vertical jump. If you’re mostly concerned about your basketball performance, your energy might be better spent developing your RFD after a certain point. I’m not quite sure at what point this is, but I’d bet it’s below a 3xBW squat. [/quote]
That may be true. Increasing your absolute strength may NOT have direct carryover to your explosive strength, but it can still increase its MAXIMUM POTENTIAL.
There’s a reason why westside trainees have a dynamic effort day. Max effort day produces raw meat, while the dynamic effort day cooks it.
[quote]DjSm28 wrote:
I was thinking about focusing on the squat because I remembered in CoolColJ’s post a while back, a 2xbw squat was low 30’s(and i’m not even at that). I want AT LEAST a 36’’ vert eventually, so I was thinking I needed to get my squat up since I’m at 2xbw now. Also, I know that AC often talks about his correlation between his squat going up and his speed and vert improving. (BTW, if you’re reading this AC, this is Sachin.)
However, I do agree that I should be doing more RFD and plyos to let me jump higher and run faster. I suppose I could get to the 300/400/500 this year and then maintain strength for a while and shift over to explosive and reactive strength after that. The 3xbw might be an eventual goal as well. Maybe I’ll try to hit that by the time i’m 27(i’m 23 right now.)[/quote]
I’ve seen your videos, and your lacking movement effeciency.
You don’t really need high intensity plyos, just more movement drils, hops and speed hoops focusing on locking up, being relaxed and snappy.
For that reason your not using all your strength
Remeber that fatigue from strength work can make you lose explosiveness, and snappiness. Squatting heavy every week is gonna kill your hops once you start to get to a certain level of strength
Also it’s not so much getting to a certain squat that helps power and explosiveness, but the muscle mass you gain getting there. When you recruit them they generate more force when their bigger, but you also have to be able to recruit them in the first place and direct them properly in the correct timeing and direction - ie movement effeciency
[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
Trust me 2xBW totally raw and as low as you can go, shoulder width stance is far from sufficient. I’m there now, a bit over that low bar full squat wise, and around that high bar olympic style, and I would say that’s the bare minimum.
According to my vertical jump formula, that’s only good for a 33-34 inch VJ. Which is good, but not enough for short dudes to sky
2.5xBW is where you should be heading to, and then that’s the lower end of the ideal point if you want to jump as high and acclerate as fast as your capable of.
If you want a 40 inch vertical, 2.5xBW full squat is where you want to be, and more if you want higher. In fact a lot of people are squatting more than this to jump 40 inches.
Really you want to be cranking out sets and reps with 2xBW. If you can do at least 8 reps with 2xBW all the way down and beltless, then that would be a good place to be as far as relative strength goes :)[/quote]
Hey how would your vj formula change if your squatting parallel low bar… not full oly squat.
I ask because i squat low bar to parallel and my vert is higher then predicted, i only squat like 1.6xbw but with high bar full oly squat i doubt id even get 1.5xbw, even if i can say get…98kg at 66kg full oly squat, id be at 25inches according to the calc, however im more at like 27-28 inches standing lol. wierddd !
I dun think im naturaly strong or anything… i started with liek a 30-40kg squat at 60kg bw lol. I know the calc is just a general formula, but from reading heaps of forums like this,tvs,dbhammer etc. it seems to be pretty accurate.
but if a 1.6x low bar squat to parallel , gets me 27-28inches standing… surely a 2x full oly squat would get me some big vert numberS seeing as if the calc works for me as my low bar squat to ratio and oly squats are generally harder then low bar parallel.
So basicly the formula works for me as a low bar squat to parallel : BW that gives my a fairly accurate result for standing vert give or take 1 inch.
Btw if it helps i jump about 34-35 of the run, two legs.
Sorry for the long post lol!
Thanks!
[quote]kaoticz wrote:
Hey how would your vj formula change if your squatting parallel low bar… not full oly squat.
I ask because i squat low bar to parallel and my vert is higher then predicted, i only squat like 1.6xbw but with high bar full oly squat i doubt id even get 1.5xbw, even if i can say get…98kg at 66kg full oly squat, id be at 25inches according to the calc, however im more at like 27-28 inches standing lol. wierddd !
I dun think im naturaly strong or anything… i started with liek a 30-40kg squat at 60kg bw lol. I know the calc is just a general formula, but from reading heaps of forums like this,tvs,dbhammer etc. it seems to be pretty accurate.
but if a 1.6x low bar squat to parallel , gets me 27-28inches standing… surely a 2x full oly squat would get me some big vert numberS seeing as if the calc works for me as my low bar squat to ratio and oly squats are generally harder then low bar parallel.
So basicly the formula works for me as a low bar squat to parallel : BW that gives my a fairly accurate result for standing vert give or take 1 inch.
Btw if it helps i jump about 34-35 of the run, two legs.
Sorry for the long post lol!
Thanks![/quote]
Well my low bar full squat is about 20lbs more than my olympic squat, most people will fall around there difference wise. Depends on how far you lean over I guess, and how wide your stance is
Then you have make sure your measuring your VJ accurately! If you measure by reach method, then you have to be fully warmed up and then stretch as hard as you possible can until your arm sockets rip out! Your arms do stretch out a lot when you jump. If you measure with 2 hands - reach and touch, then it’s more accurate as there is less stretching of the body
Otherwise measure using your head touch - the most accurate way. Suspend a tennis ball or tape or something and touch you head on it etc
Other than that you probably haven’t been squatting long enough to be effecient at it. Unless you have been under the bar a full year, you will still make a lot of neural gains. And you can find your squat going up without much gain in hops due to this.
this thread is fucking fascinating
hmm when i measured my reach i was actualy trying to reach as high as possible because the lower my reach is the higher id have to get up to dunk, which is my current goal, and as we all know gaining inches on your vert gets harder and harder as it goes up. My reach is 7"4 with shoes so about 7"3 barefoot, im 5"8 tall lol.
Yeah I’ve only been squatting for like 4months properply, before that i was fkin around with training for like a month. Do you think i should switch to oly squats and go a few inches below parallel, because i cant go below paralell with a low bar squat and i dont feel my p-chain working in my squats lol.
[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
Trust me 2xBW totally raw and as low as you can go, shoulder width stance is far from sufficient. I’m there now, a bit over that low bar full squat wise, and around that high bar olympic style, and I would say that’s the bare minimum.
According to my vertical jump formula, that’s only good for a 33-34 inch VJ. Which is good, but not enough for short dudes to sky
2.5xBW is where you should be heading to, and then that’s the lower end of the ideal point if you want to jump as high and acclerate as fast as your capable of.
If you want a 40 inch vertical, 2.5xBW full squat is where you want to be, and more if you want higher. In fact a lot of people are squatting more than this to jump 40 inches.
Really you want to be cranking out sets and reps with 2xBW. If you can do at least 8 reps with 2xBW all the way down and beltless, then that would be a good place to be as far as relative strength goes :)[/quote]
jesus i was thinking you were talkng about 1rm !!!
that 2.5 stuff for reps for 40??
I read somewhere that when you can do double bw squat x20 reps supersetted with x20 reps deadlift you are strong enough to wrestle a bear. I think this would make you have a serious vertical. Is it possible to even do this feat?
So…this is going to be a shift for the thread, but you guys think I should continue to get my squat up or should I do more explosive and reactive stuff now?