im not going to go crazy here, but i do think bj benefits greatly from a change in environment. I dont think he can compete at his best while trianing in hawaii…too many distractions. we love having him here and he obviously loves being here, but a different training camp with partners and couches that would push him would probably do him some good. there had to be better advice than ‘fuck his speed…just hit him’ from his cornerman as well. frankie fought a solid fight, put together combosonthe way in and got out, disrupted bjs timing on the ground as well. i still think maynard will be able to smash him into the cage and sit on him though.
and it wouldve been nice if toney had shown some semblanceof takedown defense. he just looked at randy as he grabbed the singleand pushed him over…guess he got his payday tho
Spoilers ahead
Toney looked amateurish.
It’s official UFC policy [for White, Couture and the others] to say respectful things like “he’s a tremendous fighter and trained really hard” but that’s just lying with a smile. If he’d really train hard and smart, he’d never looked THAT bad. We’re not talking about Joe Schmo doing some MMA for 9 months, but a top martial athlete, who’s healthy and motivated and willing to learn from top trainers.
The most dangerous MMA siblings continue to shine, what a fantastic submission!
I was really frustrated with BJ: Low Kicks, Takedowns, they worked, and yet, but where were they?
His cornermen did an extremely poor job.
BJ may have great hands BUT this day Edgar was getting the better of him. He established his rythm and showed great stamina. So why keep looking for a lucky punch when takedowns and groundwork actually worked?
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Boxing doesn’t have better “punching skills” then MMA per se.
Many moves in boxing are extremely sportspecific and wouldn’t work anywhere else.
I buy the “better ahtletes” argument only in so far that the talent pool is bigger and the sport’s is older.
[/quote]
Dude, you have no idea of what you’re talking about on a boxers hands-
-Sylvia Vid-
[/quote]
If you need a few rounds to warm up and feel your opponent up, if you clinch excessively, if you cover yourself up for defense with those huge gloves waiting for the other to finish a combo etc etc… then you probably won’t profit much from that sport in other combat situations - BUT you can still be great in a boxing ring.
On the other hand , a quick, aggressive boxer who’s equally good with countering has, at least in my opinion, GREAT crossover potential.
Also, I think the boxer’s greatest asset is his toughness. While I know street fighters who were respected because of their (boxing) hands, the most notorious usually didn’t care about getting hit in the head at all.
That’s a talent you can ONLY get through (kick/thai)boxing. Big, strong, working class thugs can often punch reasonably hard without training.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
im not going to go crazy here, but i do think bj benefits greatly from a change in environment. I dont think he can compete at his best while trianing in hawaii…too many distractions. we love having him here and he obviously loves being here, but a different training camp with partners and couches that would push him would probably do him some good. there had to be better advice than ‘fuck his speed…just hit him’ from his cornerman as well. frankie fought a solid fight, put together combosonthe way in and got out, disrupted bjs timing on the ground as well. i still think maynard will be able to smash him into the cage and sit on him though.[/quote]
You know what man? I think it’s possible that Edgar just has Penn’s number. I still feel like a motivated Penn is the best LW on the planet, it just looks like Edgar sticks to his gameplan perfectly. I’ve never seen Penn look rocked, but after that bomb Edgar dropped while Penn was on his back [3 rd?] I thought he might get knocked out. He was pretty damn wobbly.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Boxing doesn’t have better “punching skills” then MMA per se.
Many moves in boxing are extremely sportspecific and wouldn’t work anywhere else.
I buy the “better ahtletes” argument only in so far that the talent pool is bigger and the sport’s is older.
[/quote]
Dude, you have no idea of what you’re talking about on a boxers hands-
-Sylvia Vid-
[/quote]
If you need a few rounds to warm up and feel your opponent up, if you clinch excessively, if you cover yourself up for defense with those huge gloves waiting for the other to finish a combo etc etc… then you probably won’t profit much from that sport in other combat situations - BUT you can still be great in a boxing ring.
On the other hand , a quick, aggressive boxer who’s equally good with countering has, at least in my opinion, GREAT crossover potential.
Also, I think the boxer’s greatest asset is his toughness. While I know street fighters who were respected because of their (boxing) hands, the most notorious usually didn’t care about getting hit in the head at all.
That’s a talent you can ONLY get through (kick/thai)boxing. Big, strong, working class thugs can often punch reasonably hard without training.
[/quote]
The strike defense in boxing has little to do with the size of the gloves and more to do with solid defensive technique. It is used in defending punches in MMA as well. The difference is when you’re defending in boxing you only have to worry about more punches from different angles.
There are quite a few defensive mechanisms and some have a lot to do with thick, padded gloves.
Does boxing have a good defense? You bet, especially compared to traditional MA defenses, boxing is very practical in that department.
However, you cannot argue that some fighters rely EXTENSIVELY on something we call in german “Doppeldeckung”. It’s when a fighter covers up completely and moves tactically only very little. He basically tries to outlast the ATPPC powered onslaught of his opponent.
Arthur Abraham does this very well. Graciano Rocchigiani was an avid user of it. In K-1, Bonjasky, who’s said to have a very good defense, does it the whole time.
Obviously, it works for them, but it’s of little use without boxing rules.
In MMA, going full defense is different in technique, stance and disposition.
You really try to cover as much as possible, with the ellbows much higher. Your weight distribution is completely different since a boxer can assume his lower body is safe from low kicks, takedowns and other nasty things. And while the boxer is often motionless, and simply “waits for his turn”, this is NOT an option in MMA. You can lose the fight by covering up against a good striker.
Also, while a pro boxer (not necessarily the lower weight classes, though) intuitively learns in which position he can take something I call “micro-rests”, that’s practically IMPOSSIBLE in standup MMA.
Look, a boxer CAN be very dangerous and the top dog of strikers - if he IS some kind of “striker” and not too specialized.
Some boxers just try to outpoint the opponent by using everything the rules allow.
When you talk pure offensive fists, then boxing is potentially the best.
If you take the whole system, boxing may or may not work as a standup striking superiority system since you have to take into account the other systems (defense, movement, clinch etc)
So yes, like already said - it very much depends.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
The strike defense in boxing has little to do with the size of the gloves and more to do with solid defensive technique. It is used in defending punches in MMA as well. The difference is when you’re defending in boxing you only have to worry about more punches from different angles.[/quote]
True…BUT if you defend punches in MMA like a pure boxer would,you’re gonna eat lots of punches…even sloppy haymakers. You need tighter defensive guard in MMA because of the smaller gloves. With that,I think you meant to say that the difference is when you’re defending in MMA you have to worry about more punches from different angles…AND penetrating your defense.
Not too mention that you will get cut to shreds with MMA gloves…as shown by Diaz vs. Davis last night.
Yeah…what Schwarz said…lol.
^^^Touche. I think Davis getting ripped up like that has more to do with his paper skin than anything else. He looked like a fucking science project by the end of that fight. I really wanted him to beat the piss out of Diaz.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
^^^Touche. I think Davis getting ripped up like that has more to do with his paper skin than anything else. He looked like a fucking science project by the end of that fight. I really wanted him to beat the piss out of Diaz.[/quote]
Maybe so…but you will get cut easier with MMA gloves.
Speaking of that fight:
He could have bettered Diaz if he had moved his damn feet and used leg kicks earlier. It was painful to watch him try to fight in the range of a longer fighter. I know that is not what DellaGrotte asked of him.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
^^^Touche. I think Davis getting ripped up like that has more to do with his paper skin than anything else. He looked like a fucking science project by the end of that fight. I really wanted him to beat the piss out of Diaz.[/quote]
Maybe so…but you will get cut easier with MMA gloves.
Speaking of that fight:
He could have bettered Diaz if he had moved his damn feet and used leg kicks earlier. It was painful to watch him try to fight in the range of a longer fighter. I know that is not what DellaGrotte asked of him.
[/quote]
I meant to say in Davis’ case it was a bit of both. I couldn’t figure out for the life of me why a fighter with Davis’ boxing background didn’t try to close the gap and drop short bombs. Standing on the outside was getting him mutilated. He must’ve thrown 50 overhand lefts that were a good 3" short.
AY!!!
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
^^^Touche. I think Davis getting ripped up like that has more to do with his paper skin than anything else. He looked like a fucking science project by the end of that fight. I really wanted him to beat the piss out of Diaz.[/quote]
Maybe so…but you will get cut easier with MMA gloves.
Speaking of that fight:
He could have bettered Diaz if he had moved his damn feet and used leg kicks earlier. It was painful to watch him try to fight in the range of a longer fighter. I know that is not what DellaGrotte asked of him.
[/quote]
I meant to say in Davis’ case it was a bit of both. I couldn’t figure out for the life of me why a fighter with Davis’ boxing background didn’t try to close the gap and drop short bombs. Standing on the outside was getting him mutilated. He must’ve thrown 50 overhand lefts that were a good 3" short.[/quote]
Yep…and remember what happened when he actually did close the gap?? Nate came close to getting KO’d when he did the Diaz signature hand raise in first round…lol.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]slimjim wrote:
im not going to go crazy here, but i do think bj benefits greatly from a change in environment. I dont think he can compete at his best while trianing in hawaii…too many distractions. we love having him here and he obviously loves being here, but a different training camp with partners and couches that would push him would probably do him some good. there had to be better advice than ‘fuck his speed…just hit him’ from his cornerman as well. frankie fought a solid fight, put together combosonthe way in and got out, disrupted bjs timing on the ground as well. i still think maynard will be able to smash him into the cage and sit on him though.[/quote]
You know what man? I think it’s possible that Edgar just has Penn’s number. I still feel like a motivated Penn is the best LW on the planet, it just looks like Edgar sticks to his gameplan perfectly. I’ve never seen Penn look rocked, but after that bomb Edgar dropped while Penn was on his back [3 rd?] I thought he might get knocked out. He was pretty damn wobbly.[/quote]
obviously, but youd think his camp wouldve come up with a better game plan than the one that lost him the first fight…it was obvious that bj was having trouble with edgar’s speed after the first round, yet nothing changed until the 4th when bj started to get desparate and actually attempted takedowns. i just dont understand why you would try to fight the same fight that got you in trouble the first time around
yup, his coach told him to use his footwork and said something like “you know what I mean…”
Twice at the start of rounds, Davis then stood up, set up his cross with quick footwork forward and scored. But Diaz would notice and counter in the next exchange when Davis tried to force through.
After this, he was getting frustrated and overreached just as his corner told him no to do anymore. No lateral movement to mix it up whatsoever.
The Diaz bros sure know how to control a fistfight inside the octagon.
They are a nightmare to set up a gameplan against. Tough with a great chin and gastank, getting better all the time. Agressive and mentally strong, great on the feet and with BJJ.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
yup, his coach told him to use his footwork and said something like “you know what I mean…”
Twice at the start of rounds, Davis then stood up, set up his cross with quick footwork forward and scored. But Diaz would notice and counter in the next exchange when Davis tried to force through.
After this, he was getting frustrated and overreached just as his corner told him no to do anymore. No lateral movement to mix it up whatsoever.
The Diaz bros sure know how to control a fistfight inside the octagon.
They are a nightmare to set up a gameplan against. Tough with a great chin and gastank, getting better all the time. Agressive and mentally strong, great on the feet and with BJJ.
[/quote]
True…but I don’t think Nate is going to go very far @ 170…I still think he was a better fit at 155. But I could be wrong. We shall see when he gets matches with guys like Hardy,Alves(granted he’s not forced to fight HW…lol),etc.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
yup, his coach told him to use his footwork and said something like “you know what I mean…”
Twice at the start of rounds, Davis then stood up, set up his cross with quick footwork forward and scored. But Diaz would notice and counter in the next exchange when Davis tried to force through.
After this, he was getting frustrated and overreached just as his corner told him no to do anymore. No lateral movement to mix it up whatsoever.
The Diaz bros sure know how to control a fistfight inside the octagon.
They are a nightmare to set up a gameplan against. Tough with a great chin and gastank, getting better all the time. Agressive and mentally strong, great on the feet and with BJJ.
[/quote]
True…but I don’t think Nate is going to go very far @ 170…I still think he was a better fit at 155. But I could be wrong. We shall see when he gets matches with guys like Hardy,Alves(granted he’s not forced to fight HW…lol),etc. [/quote]
You’re not wrong, Nate Diaz won’t be able to crack the top 5 or 6 in the 170 pound division. He stands a far better chance at 155. But even at that weight I’d bet a small fortune he’ll never become champion.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
^^^Touche. I think Davis getting ripped up like that has more to do with his paper skin than anything else. He looked like a fucking science project by the end of that fight. I really wanted him to beat the piss out of Diaz.[/quote]
Maybe so…but you will get cut easier with MMA gloves.
Speaking of that fight:
He could have bettered Diaz if he had moved his damn feet and used leg kicks earlier. It was painful to watch him try to fight in the range of a longer fighter. I know that is not what DellaGrotte asked of him.
[/quote]
I meant to say in Davis’ case it was a bit of both. I couldn’t figure out for the life of me why a fighter with Davis’ boxing background didn’t try to close the gap and drop short bombs. Standing on the outside was getting him mutilated. He must’ve thrown 50 overhand lefts that were a good 3" short.[/quote]
Yep…and remember what happened when he actually did close the gap?? Nate came close to getting KO’d when he did the Diaz signature hand raise in first round…lol.
[/quote]
We actually walked in at the start of the 2nd so I missed that, haha. He didn’t seem too scared of getting subbed so maybe his ego wouldn’t allow him to realize he was losing at “his” game?
[quote]slimjim wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]slimjim wrote:
im not going to go crazy here, but i do think bj benefits greatly from a change in environment. I dont think he can compete at his best while trianing in hawaii…too many distractions. we love having him here and he obviously loves being here, but a different training camp with partners and couches that would push him would probably do him some good. there had to be better advice than ‘fuck his speed…just hit him’ from his cornerman as well. frankie fought a solid fight, put together combosonthe way in and got out, disrupted bjs timing on the ground as well. i still think maynard will be able to smash him into the cage and sit on him though.[/quote]
You know what man? I think it’s possible that Edgar just has Penn’s number. I still feel like a motivated Penn is the best LW on the planet, it just looks like Edgar sticks to his gameplan perfectly. I’ve never seen Penn look rocked, but after that bomb Edgar dropped while Penn was on his back [3 rd?] I thought he might get knocked out. He was pretty damn wobbly.[/quote]
obviously, but youd think his camp wouldve come up with a better game plan than the one that lost him the first fight…it was obvious that bj was having trouble with edgar’s speed after the first round, yet nothing changed until the 4th when bj started to get desparate and actually attempted takedowns. i just dont understand why you would try to fight the same fight that got you in trouble the first time around[/quote]
Truthfully I don’t remember much about the first fight other than I thought it could’ve gone either way. Last night was a landslide. Maybe it was Penn’s ego not wanting to admit he could be beat at an area where he normally dominates? I honestly thought Penn was invincible at 155 until last night. Edgar’s a tank.