Too Much Information, Confused

Training
1

Hello. this is my first post. Ive been training for about 10 months. Im 5feet 5, 75kg and around 20% BF. My primary goal is strength. Id like to look like i lift but I dont really want to get huge as I also like to Cycle.around 4 months ago I started the stronglifts 5x5 and for a while I was doing well.my squat was 90kg, DL 120kg, back pull 60kg, bench 65kg and shoulder press 55kg. which is obviously not great but the weights were slowly going up.

it all fell apart when I decided to reduce calories to cut some fat. I cut to 1700 per day and I wasnt hungry or lethargic but the weight stopped increasing. so for the past 6 weeks or so Ive been a bit lost as to what the best approach is.I try to lift 3 times per week. usually 6am to fit around work and family. any advice is appreciated.

I have several obstacles
-poor/unpredictable sleep due to a 10 month old baby
-I dont eat anything that walks or flies.Im not concerned about my diet so much as I try to eat clean and get protein through dairy, eggs, beans and occasionally fish.
-I cycle which means recovery can be an issue for legs but thats how I get to work so cant change that.

My questions

  1. sets and reps? I feel that I can choose appropriate lifts but what reps and sets should I go for.

2)Im always conscious of my form especially with squatting and experienced lifters have said it looks good but when the weights get heavy(for me) I can feel my form slip.Should I deload and try again? stick at that weight until I can lift with good form

2

You need to eat. especially if you are cycling a lot, which means your going to need a lot more calories then your eating.

3

You sound like you’re trying to accomplish your goals without creating the environment to do so.

-I respect anyone whom is a vegetarian, or only eats fish, or whatever. I wish I could be one just regarding the negative treatment of animals. However, I have never personally met a vegetarian that could kick my ass. I’ve certainly read about some successful vegetarian bodybuilders, but I honestly don’t know how it is possible. Eating meat, and eating a lot of it, is very beneficial to getting stronger. You are what you eat, and eating an animals skeletal muscle should be a no brainer.

If you want to get stronger and build muscle, you have to eat a lot. There is no way around that. It is an absolute necessity.

-The sleep thing you just have to deal with for awhile. I understand. I’m a fulltime firefighter, and I HATE my sleep cycles. They get jacked up and I go on little sleep a lot. Just try to sleep when you can, stay away from stimulants if you can help it and don’t stress out about it. Do what you can and get in the habit of training on schedule regardless of how you feel sleep wise.

-As far as reps and sets. If Stronglifts 5x5 has stopped working for you, move on to Madcow 5x5 or 5/3/1. Keep it simple ,especially if you are not sleeping well.

-If your form is good but it gets really shitty on heavy sets it might be indicating weak links in the chain. Train those weak links through accessory work to make your squat stronger. Post a video or ask an experienced lifter to try to diagnose your form break in your challenging work sets.

4

Thanks for replying.

I deal badly with lack of sleep but luckily Im always so tired I fall asleep immediately. hopefully one day he’ll sleep right through the night and then I can get my own back by waking him.

I really do understand that by not eating meat I will never reach my potential. I ate meat for 27 years but Ive made my decision based on animal welfare and I’m prepared to forego being as strong as possible to stand by my morals. I could eat more eggs, cottage cheese, shrimps and quinoa.

Im going to look at both madcow and 5/3/1 to see which might benefit me. I like compound movements but I’m slightly put off by the working out of % of % for each lift etc but if it works I’ll do it.

in practical terms what would you do if you felt that weight was too heavy for good form? would you deload and continue the session and keep good form or stop doing the lift and work on other lifts that will strengthen the first one. its usually during my squat that rep 4 and 5 in sets 4 and 5 i can feel myself bending at the lower back despite trying to pull back my shoulders and chest up.

5

[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
My primary goal is strength. Id like to look like i lift but I dont really want to get huge as I also like to Cycle.
…
it all fell apart when I decided to reduce calories to cut some fat.[/quote]
Pick one goal and go full throttle towards it. The best way to train for strength and the best way to lose fat are pretty opposite ends of the spectrum, so it’s no surprise you ran into trouble.

That’s pretty low calories, even for your size, considering your activity level. Did you see any fat loss in that time period?

This is obviously unfixable, but it is temporary. Do the best you can. And congrats on the kiddo. :wink:

[quote]-I dont eat anything that walks or flies.Im not concerned about my diet so much as I try to eat clean and get protein through dairy, eggs, beans and occasionally fish.
…
I could eat more eggs, cottage cheese, shrimps and quinoa. [/quote]
What, exactly, did you eat yesterday?

Avoiding red meat/poultry isn’t nearly as big a problem as some think, but it will require you to absolutely be more conscious of your food choices. Use the Search Box (top right of the screen) and find some of the older threads where I’ve talked about vegan/vegetarian bodybuilding.

Don’t count beans or quinoa as a “protein source.” Yes, they have protein, but they’re also so chock full of carbs that you get a relative-ton of calories for your protein bang. Definitely plan on having on whole eggs and some kind of fish at least once a day each.

In general, carb cycling is one of the better ways for vegetarians to drop fat. More total carbs on training days, less carbs on non-training days. Again, it takes planning, but it’s completely doable.

How long is the bike ride to work? (Time-wise not distance) Just to keep things straight, you’re lifting around 6:00am (I’m guess for an hour or so?) and then jumping on the bike to work at, what, like 8-something?

Depends on your exact goal (fat loss or strength). There are tons of programs here on the site that’ll fit what you need. There are even some solid two-day a week programs that may help with your schedule issues.

Form will always change a bit when things get heavier, but you do always want to stay safe. It’s tough to tell exactly how much your form is changing though. Maybe grab a video of a heavier set and see what’s what. A deload almost-certainly isn’t necessary.

6

  1. Why isn’t whey protein an option here? It comes from dairy so it’s not walking or flying. And it can help get protein, since you are foregoing the best option FOR protein (meat).

  2. 1700 calories is ridiculously low. You simply cannot gain muscle doing that. Combined with the mandatory cycling you do, and that’s a recipe for NOT getting stronger.

  3. The idea that you are going to get HYOOOOGE by accident is preposterous. Most lifters that are 250+ go out of their way to get there. You aren’t doing that, so it’s not likely to happen. Eat more.

  4. When it comes to form breakdowns (in the compound movements of squat/DL/presses) there are usually a couple culprits. Technique is bad or certain muscles are the weak link holding you back.

Obviously, any technique problem should be corrected. Yesterday.

The next part is where you find a couple different opinions. Some say to add assistance work targeting the “weak” muscle. Or you could drop the weight down to a point where you DO NOT have the form breakdown (in other words you can do the movement perfectly), and then drop 10% from that and start working back up like normal.

The second way is basically putting you back to where the “weak” link is capable of doing it’s job, and then working back up to INCLUDE strengthening the weak link.

Choice is up to you. Don’t get disheartened by dropping the weight back. Sometimes you have to take 2 steps back to go forward. It will work out in the long run and you’ll be better for it since you didn’t allow the weak link to cause your form to become sloppy or incorrect.

7

[quote]SevenDragons wrote:
The next part is where you find a couple different opinions. Some say to add assistance work targeting the “weak” muscle. [/quote]

Wow, finally things clicked.

I now understand how people end up on these routines that are 80%+ assistance work.

Deadlifts stall… add hamstring work because of “weak hamstrings”… deadlifts stall… add in some erector work because of a “weak lower back”… deadlifts stall… add in some quad work because of “weak quads”… deadlifts stall…

Kind of like an addiction, slowly creeping up on you. Eventually all they’re doing is assistance work and still not making progress on their main lifts.

And then, a few months, or years later, come to some revelation and “get back to basics” and start making progress again.

It all just came together now.

Thanks, I suppose.

8

Thankyou all for your replies.
I think part of the confusion may be conflicting goals ie, fat loss/strength. Im not obese but I could stand to lose a few kilos.but if i can do this whilst getting stronger then my goal is strength.

when I cut my calories I lost 3kg in 6 weeks and felt fine and less bloated. ( the calorie cut started because since I started lifting my quads, chest and arse had naturally got bigger and I didnt fit in my two year old wedding suit quite so well. I thought SHIT!!! and took prompt and probably uneducated action.

yesterday I ate 200cals of oats with water and 3 eggs for breakfast. mid morning a banana and 20 almonds. lunch 400 cals of beans, lentils, quinoa mix with 100 cals of cottage cheese, tabasco sauce and salad. afternoon and I had a whey protein shake( I sometimes have a second piece of fruit). for dinner I had omelette with tuna, olives and vegetables.

timescale wise I drive to the gym workout for maybe 45 mins to an hour. before I leave I have a strong coffee and whey shake. I eat breakfast when I get home at 7 and the cycle to work at 7.30 leaving the car for my wife. the ride is 30-45 minutes depending on energy levels. 7 hilly miles each way.I try to work out 3 times per week but twice would be better. as when I have my son at home I do bodyweight stuff. i finds it hilarious watching me bodyweight squat and hind pushup.

9

[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
Im going to look at both madcow and 5/3/1 to see which might benefit me. I like compound movements but I’m slightly put off by the working out of % of % for each lift etc but if it works I’ll do it.

in practical terms what would you do if you felt that weight was too heavy for good form? would you deload and continue the session and keep good form or stop doing the lift and work on other lifts that will strengthen the first one. its usually during my squat that rep 4 and 5 in sets 4 and 5 i can feel myself bending at the lower back despite trying to pull back my shoulders and chest up.[/quote]

Working off of percentages works very well, especially for beginners to intermediate lifters. It also keeps you honest with your work, gives you reference points on your strength, and helps you track progress over a long period of time.

5/3/1 has you working at 90% of your maximum strength level, which might be better for you if you have a hard time maintaining form in harder work sets. Seriously buy the original book “5/3/1” by Jim Wendler, it is a great read and should honestly answer all of your questions training related.

If I were you, due to your situation, I would invest in a squat rack/cage, moveable flat bench, barbell, some weight and just train at home. You can do everything you need to do with that equipment and could probably find some of the equipment used for a decent price.

10

Thanks Evolv.
buying equipment isnt an option. I live in a small terraced house which to people from America may seem inconceivably small and I have nowhere to put it. I dont really mind getting up early and travelling to the gym.

Ive been researching today and Im going to start 5/3/1. now that Ive got my head around it and Ive got a phone app that works out 1RM and 90% I think it will work well. Ill start with a two day split and change if and when my situation changes. Ill probably do a third day of bodyweight stuff at home. continue the cycling for cardio. up my calories slightly and see how things go.

11

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]SevenDragons wrote:
The next part is where you find a couple different opinions. Some say to add assistance work targeting the “weak” muscle. [/quote]

Wow, finally things clicked.

I now understand how people end up on these routines that are 80%+ assistance work.

Deadlifts stall… add hamstring work because of “weak hamstrings”… deadlifts stall… add in some erector work because of a “weak lower back”… deadlifts stall… add in some quad work because of “weak quads”… deadlifts stall…

Kind of like an addiction, slowly creeping up on you. Eventually all they’re doing is assistance work and still not making progress on their main lifts.

And then, a few months, or years later, come to some revelation and “get back to basics” and start making progress again.

It all just came together now.

Thanks, I suppose.[/quote]

That’s because many lifters misunderstand assistance work.

But yeah, I prefer method two. Dropping the weight down to where form is GOOD, then working back up WITH CORRECT FORM. The weakest muscle (relative to the workload inside the compound movement you are doing) is always the limiting factor. So by setting the weight you are using to IT’S level, you are working it and thereby strengthening it. Eventually you will get it to where it is supposed to be, and the other muscles in the movement can start to get challenged.

I prefer this method because I hate, hate, hate having 10 different exercises to do. I like simple. The 4 basic lifts, and only chosen assistance exercise for a very specific reason.

12

[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
Thanks Evolv.
buying equipment isnt an option. I live in a small terraced house which to people from America may seem inconceivably small and I have nowhere to put it. I dont really mind getting up early and travelling to the gym.

Ive been researching today and Im going to start 5/3/1. now that Ive got my head around it and Ive got a phone app that works out 1RM and 90% I think it will work well. Ill start with a two day split and change if and when my situation changes. Ill probably do a third day of bodyweight stuff at home. continue the cycling for cardio. up my calories slightly and see how things go.[/quote]
You’re welcome man. Also, Google “blackironbeast 5/3/1 calculator.” You can input your numbers and print your workouts right off the webpage. Might make it a little easier for you.

13

[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
Im not obese but I could stand to lose a few kilos.but if i can do this whilst getting stronger then my goal is strength. [/quote]
Dialing in your diet is really going to be key here. It’s tricky, because you need enough protein to build/maintain muscle, enough carbs and fats to deal with 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 hours of cardio a week, and enough but not too-few calories to prompt fat loss. Again though, I think some kind of carb cycling would be worth trying.

5/3/1 is definitely a solid plan. There are a few different ways to make it work for twice-a-week training. Wendler wrote a great article specifically about it:

Think about the “weekend-only” plan he discussed there. That would also solve the “lift and then ride the bike” situation as well, since you’d only be riding during the week. I do understand that your weekend schedule may be tight, but it’s worth considering.

Just make sure there’s a good reason for any training, and that any training you do brings you closer to your actual goal. (Meaning, I’m not sure a day of “bodyweight stuff” is necessary, depending on what it is.)

14

Thankyou for replying Chris.I know you must be very busy

I started the 531 yesterday. I think I can do a Sunday morning plus maybe tues/wed or thurs so that should be fine.

bodyweight exercises I would do is squat, hindu pressup and back bridges. My reasoning for this would be a)strengthen core and b) burn calories.Are you saying that as long as my lifting on the 531 progresses that these supplememntary exercises may be unnecessary or even detrimental. Im doing the beginners assistance plan after the big lifts.

I will try the carb cycling. You didnt comment on my diet so Im assuming there was nothing glaringly terrible about it. that was a true reflection of my weekday diet. I find it much easier to stick to good stuff when Im at work. I drink lots of water but I think I could cut back on Black tea and coffee. on none training days when I cut back on carbs would you cut the pulses and legumes too and eat lots of eggs, cottage cheese, fish with vegetables or would some carbs from beans be a good idea if Im cycling.

thanks again

15

[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
bodyweight exercises I would do is squat, hindu pressup and back bridges. My reasoning for this would be a)strengthen core and b) burn calories. Are you saying that as long as my lifting on the 531 progresses that these supplememntary exercises may be unnecessary or even detrimental.[/quote]
Ha, the classic royal court. Gotcha. It could be detrimental to overall recovery, depending on how challenging the exercises are for you. I know the squats and push-ups generally go for high to very high reps, so I’m not sure where you’re at with them.

The general rule of 15 or more reps being “endurance training” would be a ballpark to stick with. If you can bang out 15+ per set without much muscular fatigue, then it could probably serve as a bodyweight conditioning/cardio session.

I didn’t run the numbers exactly, but it looks like that was maybe 100 grams of protein. For maximum recovery and to prevent muscle loss, make sure you’re hitting roundabout 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight. Yes, pound, you kilogram-using weirdo. :wink:

Generally, on lower carb days you want to focus just on protein and fat sources with minimal carbs, so there’d be no real “need” (using the term loosely) for a bunch of beans. Maybe in one meal early in the day, depending on portion size, but that’d probably be the day’s fill of carbs. There have been a few articles about setting up a basic carb cycling diet.

16

Thankyou all for answering. heres my update…

last week I had a massage from a very informative sports therapist who explained that my weak link is my glutes. it was affecting my posture, lower back, and even the way I stand and IT bands. She recomended doing kettlebells to bring my posterior chain up to scratch. Im considering using the bell for swings, goblet squats, turkish stand ups, renegade rows.

I would still have to go to the gym for squats, bench and shoulder press but maybe just once per week for now.this would be beneficial for me as I can train at whatever time I wish and I’ll get more sleep if I dont have to get up early for the gym. its a 20kg bell(thats 45lbs, Chris.haha)
has anyone got experience of kettlebell focused training and what results did you find?

17

[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
Thankyou all for answering. heres my update…

last week I had a massage from a very informative sports therapist who explained that my weak link is my glutes. it was affecting my posture, lower back, and even the way I stand and IT bands. She recomended doing kettlebells to bring my posterior chain up to scratch. Im considering using the bell for swings, goblet squats, turkish stand ups, renegade rows.

I would still have to go to the gym for squats, bench and shoulder press but maybe just once per week for now.this would be beneficial for me as I can train at whatever time I wish and I’ll get more sleep if I dont have to get up early for the gym. its a 20kg bell(thats 45lbs, Chris.haha)
has anyone got experience of kettlebell focused training and what results did you find?[/quote]

I don’t think weak glutes are affecting your posture. On the contrary, its more likely that a long period of lazy posture has left your glutes weak because you did not consciously use them. Does this make sense?

If so, having the strongest glutes in the world won’t make a difference if they are not activated.

I would advise that you scrap the day for kettleballs, add the dynamic warm up and activation drills in the beyond 531 program on your lower body days and learn proper technique to activate your glutes during the lifts. You are still in the beginner stage so don’t worry, they will catch up.

Also, consciously be aware of your posture in your everyday life and everything will fall into place.

18

I think generally eating more, especially protein, needs to be reiterated! You say that your cycle to work is “30-45 minutes depending on energy levels. 7 hilly miles each way”. Assuming you work 5 times a week that’s 70 miles of cycling a week. Even without that amount of cardio 1,700 calories a day would not be enough to optimally gain muscle/get stronger, I’m definitely not an expert on nutrition or exercise science but it seems blatantly obvious that this is going to be one of the, if not the biggest barrier to him progressing?

19

Hello people.

Thankyou again for the advice. this is just an update. since last posting I took 4 weeks off of the gym and used the kettlebell. I have also increased my calorie intake and feeling the benefits. the four weeks off was good because it has now given me new enthusiasm. my son is sleeping better so things are clicking. as for whether kettlebells helped im not so sure…

before the break i was squatting 90, DL 120, bench 65 and shoulder press 55. in my time off I was doing 200 swings 4xweek plus circuits. on return to the gym numbers had all dropped (Sq75, DL 105kg, SP 50, Bench 60) but the swings are getting easier. I think my physique has improved also due to lower BF. Im 2 weeks into a 12 week challenge with my brother and two friends to change our physiques. (we’re all slightly overweight) the interesting thing is we are all using different means. one friend is using Insanity. the other is dong a BB split. my brother is doing sprints and bodyweight exercises and Im using compound stuff

workout A)Squat, Shoulder press, Farmers walks
workoutB)Squat , DL, Bench-----All 5x5
I do KB twice a week also. Im aiming for a physique like Mike Tyson in his prime.

20

[quote]Adamyorks83 wrote:
as for whether kettlebells helped im not so sure…

before the break i was squatting 90, DL 120, bench 65 and shoulder press 55. in my time off I was doing 200 swings 4xweek plus circuits. on return to the gym numbers had all dropped (Sq75, DL 105kg, SP 50, Bench 60) but the swings are getting easier.[/quote]
So you spent four weeks straight only using kettlebells and not squatting, benching, deadlifting, or pressing… and in the end, you got better at kettlebells and your squat, bench, deadlift, and press went down. That’s, like, not really unexpected.

As long as you’ve seen some fat loss progress, I wouldn’t sweat about any strength loss. It should bounce back right-quick when you get back to consistent lifting.

Ha, this does sound interesting. Are you guys all eating roughly the same way? (cutting calories, or is someone dropping a ton of carbs or trying Intermittent Fasting or whatever). Just curious.

[quote]workout A)Squat, Shoulder press, Farmers walks
workoutB)Squat , DL, Bench-----All 5x5
I do KB twice a week also.[/quote]
With the kettlebells, are you still just doing swings or what? Just be aware of any overlap and account for recovery.