Do you guys honestly think Rippetoe wrote that article without knowing it would torque the bodybuilders on this (and other) forum(s)?
Y’all got trolled and you’re too busy typing angry responses on the Internet to realize it.
LOL
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
urgh, this again.
Rippetoe writes programs designed around teaching beginner to intermediate lifters the basic barbell lifts. That’s all he does. To say Rippetoe sucks is wrong, because he does what he does exceptionally well. When these discussions come up people point out that his programs are no good for bodybuilding. Rip doesn’t give a shit about bodybuilding. He gives a shit about the basic, barbell lifts, and that’s what he teaches with a huge degree of skill and success.
If you don’t want to do a program based off of the basic BB lifts, then you wouldn’t do one of Rip’s programs. That doesn’t make his programs bad, or make him a bad coach, it just means that your goals are not in line with what Rip teaches. Not everyone that lifts weights wants to get into bodybuilding or cares about things like making sure their rear delts or upper chest don’t lag. Some people just like to squat, bench and clean heavy. For these people, Rip’s programs like SS or the Texas Method are a fine choice for as long as they can progress without needing some kind of periodisation.
And he doesn’t recommend GOMAD for everyone, just the skinny teenage kids that need the calories.
You might not want to do one of his programs, but there is no denying that Rip is exceptional at coaching what he does, and his programs will most definitely get you strong in the basic lifts. If your goals require a different program, then do a different program. That doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with Rip’s programs, just that they don’t suit your goals.[/quote]
Very well said
[quote]Son_of_Man wrote:
[quote]setto222 wrote:
I once heard a quote somewhere along the lines of “Rippetoe is brilliant. He targets a young un-trained demographic who would see gains with just about anything. He almost guarantees success”.
I like Ripp. I think his knowledge and ability to teach barbell work is absolutely incredible. However, I kind of find it annoying that every beginner is told “Do starting strength” almost automatically. I’m not saying it doesn’t work, but it’s not the only way.
Coming back to the article posted at the top of this thread, I liked one of the comments in the livespill by Son_of_man in regards to the article: “Disappointed in you Rip. You’ve said some good stuff in the past. Now you just sound short-sighted and dogmatic”[/quote]
Setto, I’m touched ;)[/quote]
It was what inspired me to start the article. Really resonated with me!
[quote]some_dude wrote:
Do you guys honestly think Rippetoe wrote that article without knowing it would torque the bodybuilders on this (and other) forum(s)?
Y’all got trolled and you’re too busy typing angry responses on the Internet to realize it.
LOL[/quote]
Not sure how it’s trolling considering he believes in what he writes. And wouldn’t T-Nation be in charge of what goes on this site and not Ripp?
I’m of the opinion SS is a good primer for anyone who is a complete novice in the gym, whether their goals are physique or strength oriented. The reason being that back squats, deadlifts and bench press, Pendlays, power cleans, OHP need a lot of practice for the novice. Concentration curls don’t. Tricep pushdowns don’t. Calf raises don’t.
It’s frustrating to watch guys come into the gym and rep out 1/2 range for 225 on bench and then pat themselves on the back. If anyone even tries to squat in my gym, it’s usually a total train wreck. I only know one other dude who deadlifts in my gym, and we have a lifting platform! People are intimidated by the gym, and often go for what is easy and comfortable. Beginners tend to get lost in complicated splits. I see very week people doing multiple bicep exercises in a day because they do not even fundamentally understand what they are doing. SS allows people to get good at the major lifts through frequent training. I don’t really understand the hate.
I agree that SS lacks enough hamstring, lat and arm work for an aspiring bodybuilder, but the program really shouldn’t last much more than 3-4 months for most. That’s nothing in a trainee’s career, and a decent subsequent BB split will correct any imbalances.
[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
I’m of the opinion SS is a good primer for anyone who is a complete novice in the gym, whether their goals are physique or strength oriented. The reason being that back squats, deadlifts and bench press, Pendlays, power cleans, OHP need a lot of practice for the novice. Concentration curls don’t. Tricep pushdowns don’t. Calf raises don’t.
I agree that SS lacks enough hamstring, lat and arm work for an aspiring bodybuilder, but the program really shouldn’t last much more than 3-4 months for most. That’s nothing in a trainee’s career, and a decent subsequent BB split will correct any imbalances. [/quote]
How people seem to think that Rip wrote it as a BB program boggles the mind.
It is a program for the complete novice to break their cherry…should not be taken as more than that.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
I’m of the opinion SS is a good primer for anyone who is a complete novice in the gym, whether their goals are physique or strength oriented. The reason being that back squats, deadlifts and bench press, Pendlays, power cleans, OHP need a lot of practice for the novice. Concentration curls don’t. Tricep pushdowns don’t. Calf raises don’t.
I agree that SS lacks enough hamstring, lat and arm work for an aspiring bodybuilder, but the program really shouldn’t last much more than 3-4 months for most. That’s nothing in a trainee’s career, and a decent subsequent BB split will correct any imbalances. [/quote]
How people seem to think that Rip wrote it as a BB program boggles the mind.
It is a program for the complete novice to break their cherry…should not be taken as more than that.[/quote]
I never said it was a bodybuilding program, because it isn’t. Maybe that wasn’t directed at me - I’m not really sure. In any event I agree. It’s a cherry popper. The trainee can move on to whatever he or she likes. It’s not going to screw up anyone’s goals like some posters seem to imply.
[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
I’m of the opinion SS is a good primer for anyone who is a complete novice in the gym, whether their goals are physique or strength oriented. The reason being that back squats, deadlifts and bench press, Pendlays, power cleans, OHP need a lot of practice for the novice. Concentration curls don’t. Tricep pushdowns don’t. Calf raises don’t.
I agree that SS lacks enough hamstring, lat and arm work for an aspiring bodybuilder, but the program really shouldn’t last much more than 3-4 months for most. That’s nothing in a trainee’s career, and a decent subsequent BB split will correct any imbalances. [/quote]
How people seem to think that Rip wrote it as a BB program boggles the mind.
It is a program for the complete novice to break their cherry…should not be taken as more than that.[/quote]
I never said it was a bodybuilding program, because it isn’t. Maybe that wasn’t directed at me - I’m not really sure. In any event I agree. It’s a cherry popper. The trainee can move on to whatever he or she likes. It’s not going to screw up anyone’s goals like some posters seem to imply.
[/quote]
Was not directed at you…I was agreeing with ya.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
I’m of the opinion SS is a good primer for anyone who is a complete novice in the gym, whether their goals are physique or strength oriented. The reason being that back squats, deadlifts and bench press, Pendlays, power cleans, OHP need a lot of practice for the novice. Concentration curls don’t. Tricep pushdowns don’t. Calf raises don’t.
I agree that SS lacks enough hamstring, lat and arm work for an aspiring bodybuilder, but the program really shouldn’t last much more than 3-4 months for most. That’s nothing in a trainee’s career, and a decent subsequent BB split will correct any imbalances. [/quote]
How people seem to think that Rip wrote it as a BB program boggles the mind.
It is a program for the complete novice to break their cherry…should not be taken as more than that.[/quote]
I never said it was a bodybuilding program, because it isn’t. Maybe that wasn’t directed at me - I’m not really sure. In any event I agree. It’s a cherry popper. The trainee can move on to whatever he or she likes. It’s not going to screw up anyone’s goals like some posters seem to imply.
[/quote]
Was not directed at you…I was agreeing with ya.[/quote]
You’re awesome
As others have said, its just for beginners. I used starting strength, and ya, shit for arms and hams and back etc. But I appreciate the focus on moving a bit of weight.
It might be better to look at it in a case by case basis. When I started lifting, I could barely bench 95 pounds… Like as a max. What kind of weight would I be using in the 8-12 rep range with that kind of gurly strength? Someone like me, grown male with child like strenght needed a program to bring my strength up. SS only lasts 3-6 months. Not that big of a deal. Bring your strength up, throw in more accessory stuff and back work after your main lifts, but focus on the progression.
My brother is new to lifting, with similar weak starting point, I’m not gonna have him repping out 65lb bench presses etc for the sake of “bodybuilding”. He needs to learn how to lift first.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
I’m of the opinion SS is a good primer for anyone who is a complete novice in the gym, whether their goals are physique or strength oriented…the program really shouldn’t last much more than 3-4 months for most…
[/quote]
Agree with most of your post. However, the above? C’mon man…3 - 4 months? You’ve gotta be kidding me. That’s nowhere near enough time to gain significant strength and prowess in the big compound lifts. ESPECIALLY if the goal is strength oriented as YOU mentioned.
I honestly can’t believe what I read on this site sometimes. It can be so antithetical to good sense.[/quote]
I think that a lot of the guys that put that 3-4 month time frame on the effectiveness of starting strength are guys who have been trying a bodybuilding split for a while and realize they just need to get stronger or ex-athletes that have been out of training for a while and try to get back some of their glory days.
I am with you, that for a true beginner 3 months is no where near long enough but if the person is already competent in the lift or has some recent lifting experience that cuts down on the programs time-frame for quick gains.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
I’m of the opinion SS is a good primer for anyone who is a complete novice in the gym, whether their goals are physique or strength oriented…the program really shouldn’t last much more than 3-4 months for most…
[/quote]
Agree with most of your post. However, the above? C’mon man…3 - 4 months? You’ve gotta be kidding me. That’s nowhere near enough time to gain significant strength and prowess in the big compound lifts. ESPECIALLY if the goal is strength oriented as YOU mentioned.
I honestly can’t believe what I read on this site sometimes. It can be so antithetical to good sense.[/quote]
Rip says in the first week or two you can add up to 10 or 15lbs a session to your lower body lifts. Let’s use squats as an example:
Let’s say you are a reasonably normal, completely untrained dude of 5’10 and 170-180 lbs. You start at around 95lbs for your squat at 5 reps. (I start low just to prove a point).
3-4 months = approx 12-16 weeks. The first two weeks (6 sessions), being conservative, the trainee could add 50lb to that 5 reps, bringing it to 145lb. 10 weeks (using three months) of 5lb progressions per training session lead you around a 295lb @ 5 reps. If you used 4 months, it would get you to 355lb. That’s linear progression, and I believe my math is correct.
In my experience, trainees burn out before they even get to this point. Will there be some exceptional trainees who push it to 6 months? Yes. There will also be dudes who burn out in 2 months. It’s a short program because it’s incredibly aggressive.
Maybe you foresee the typical trainee getting much higher numbers. I don’t. I certainly don’t think my time table is “antithetical to good sense.” It comports with my observations. When I read or hear of someone doing SS for longer than 6 months, I assume they are contantly restarting the program or going nowhere because they need to change to periodized or less agressive program.
In the end, though, you should do it for as long as you can. That’s the real time-table. Agree to disagree, though.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Agree with most of your post. However, the above? C’mon man…3 - 4 months? You’ve gotta be kidding me. That’s nowhere near enough time to gain significant strength and prowess in the big compound lifts. ESPECIALLY if the goal is strength oriented as YOU mentioned.
I honestly can’t believe what I read on this site sometimes. It can be so antithetical to good sense.[/quote]
I did SS for 8 weeks. Started with a 125/125/125 total and finished with 355/200/345 total.
I wanted to push further but I realized that I was about to hit the wall. Did the math and figured that Texas Method would move me ahead faster than resetting on SS so I switched programs.
[quote]some_dude wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Agree with most of your post. However, the above? C’mon man…3 - 4 months? You’ve gotta be kidding me. That’s nowhere near enough time to gain significant strength and prowess in the big compound lifts. ESPECIALLY if the goal is strength oriented as YOU mentioned.
I honestly can’t believe what I read on this site sometimes. It can be so antithetical to good sense.[/quote]
I did SS for 8 weeks. Started with a 125/125/125 total and finished with 355/200/345 total.
I wanted to push further but I realized that I was about to hit the wall. Did the math and figured that Texas Method would move me ahead faster than resetting on SS so I switched programs.[/quote]
Awesome work, man. That’s great progress. This is exactly what I’m talking about. It unlikely you could have kept that up for another 8 weeks, let alone another 6 months.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
I’m of the opinion SS is a good primer for anyone who is a complete novice in the gym, whether their goals are physique or strength oriented…the program really shouldn’t last much more than 3-4 months for most…
[/quote]
Agree with most of your post. However, the above? C’mon man…3 - 4 months? You’ve gotta be kidding me. That’s nowhere near enough time to gain significant strength and prowess in the big compound lifts. ESPECIALLY if the goal is strength oriented as YOU mentioned.
I honestly can’t believe what I read on this site sometimes. It can be so antithetical to good sense.[/quote]
Rip says in the first week or two you can up to 10 or 15lbs a session to your lower body lifts. Let’s use squats as an example:
Let’s say you are a reasonably normal, completely untrained dude of 5’10 and 170-180 lbs. You start at around 95lbs for your squat at 5 reps. (I start low just to prove a point).
3-4 months = approx 12-16 weeks. The first two weeks (6 sessions), being conservative, the trainee could add 50lb to that 5 reps, bringing it to 145lb. 10 weeks (using three months) of 5lb progressions per training session lead you around a 295lb @ 5 reps. If you used 4 months, it would get you to 345lb. That’s linear progression, and I believe my math is correct. The bench will probably stall just as quickly.
In my experience, trainees burn out before they even get to this point. Will there be some exceptional trainees who push it to 6 months? Yes. There will also be dudes who burn out in 2 months. It’s a short program because it’s incredibly aggressive.
Maybe you foresee the typical trainee getting much higher numbers. I don’t. I certainly don’t think my time table is “antithetical to good sense.” It comports with my observations. When I read or hear of someone doing SS for longer than 6 months, I assume they are contantly restarting the program or going nowhere because they need to change to periodized or less agressive program.
In the end, though, you should do it for as long as you can. That’s the real time-table. Agree to disagree, though.[/quote]
No brand spankin’ new baby boy novices (or not very many, regard) are ATG squatting 345 for 5 reps after four months of training and you can bet your most precious tub of creatine that Rip isn’t expecting the quintessential 170 lbs, 21 year old “Lookin’ to be Swole” wannabe to be knocking out 2X BW x 5 after being under the bar for four measly months.
Anyhoo…the origin of this thread was all about arguing against Rip’s insistence on training the basic compound lifts especially for newbs. The premise that Rip is a dumbass for advocating that is simply ludicrous. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.
[/quote]
Thank you for making my point for me. the progression I used is exactly what Rip recommends for SS. 5lbs on the bar, every session. So yes, you’re right, not even Rip should expect a typical trainee to rock SS for more than 3-4 months.
Also, you wouldn’t ATG if you were following his advice, anyway. You’d be parallel, low-bar squatting as he is a near fanatical proponent of low-bar only. He even advocated that Oly lifters low-bar at one point (and may still).
I think a lot of the people shitting all over SS don’t even understand the program, as your post indicates.