Thoughts on Mark Rippetoe?

Training
142

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:

Thank you for making my point for me…

[/quote]

I didn’t.
[/quote]

What I mean to say is you can’t have it both ways. You tell me 3-4 months for SS is “antithetical to common sense.” I break down the numbers and explain that 3-4 months following SS as written will lead to some impressive numbers. Then you tell me that no novice will hit those numbers, even going so far as to call another poster a liar.

So which is it? Will the typical SS trainee go significantly longer than 3-4 months or will they stop at a more realistic # for 3 sets of 5 squats like 300-350lb? You don’t seem to grasp the linear scaling part of SS. No one is saying you have to stop squatting after SS, you just probably won’t be able to add 5lbs to your 3x5 every single session (hence, introducing Mad Cow or TM or what-have-you).

I guess I would just like to see you break down how SS is supposed work, so I can understand why you think 3-4 months is so short.

143

[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:

Thank you for making my point for me…

[/quote]

I didn’t.
[/quote]

What I mean to say is you can’t have it both ways. You tell me 3-4 months for SS is “antithetical to common sense.” I break down the numbers and explain that 3-4 months following SS as written will lead to some impressive numbers. Then you tell me that no novice will hit those numbers, even going so far as to call another poster a liar.

So which is it? Will the typical SS trainee go significantly longer than 3-4 months or will they stop at a more realistic # for 3 sets of 5 squats like 300-350lb? You don’t seem to grasp the linear scaling part of SS. No one is saying you have to stop squatting after SS, you just probably won’t be able to add 5lbs to your 3x5 every single session (hence, introducing Mad Cow or TM or what-have-you).

I guess I would just like to see you break down how SS is supposed work, so I can understand why you think 3-4 months is so short.[/quote]

I think what push is getting at is that a true newb will not be able to sustain that level of linear progress. Rippetoe recognizes that in starting strength with his reset plan. Kethnaab, who does the starting strength wikia, did a pretty good job of illustrating it also. I mean a complete newb will probably stall in the mid to upper twos on the squat and have to scale back a little to hit it with a running start. That’s going to add some time to it. I do think that at the 6 month mark though most guys would be better served looking into the starr or the texas method. Same concept just a little more advanced.

144

SS assumes you know your form down perfectly and you’re eating very well and sleeping well to maximize recovery.

This obviously cannot apply for the run of the mill individual who wants to just get more fit, and as such they’ll have to deload and continually work on their form more.

If you have the above and are willing to push, then you can probably continue a linear progression with a deload or two and reach 300lb in 3-4 months.

147

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Of course I could be wrong but you weren’t squatting 345 clean reps for 5 after two months after never touching a barbell before with a bodyweight of 170. If so, post a video and expect me to critique your depth (which I’ve found 90% of the time is too shallow and therefore a pseudo number)

Even then, the TX Method is just a variant of “Work the Basic Compound Lifts” by the SAME guy – the same guy who essentially says full depth back squats kick leg extension’s ass as a foundation for strength training.[/quote]

I filmed me hitting 315 because it was a milestone moment for me. The third set is from the side… skip to 1:43 if you want to see it.

FWIW, I’m 35 and 200lbs. The last time I squatted I was 14 years ago and it was nancy 1/4 squats @ 225. I thought I was boss because I was squatting two plates.

Anyway…

Squatting three times a week with 10 pound increments adds up to 30 pounds a week or 240 pounds over 8 weeks. 125+240=365. I achieved 355x5.

149

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Excellent work. Seriously.

However, you are not the quintessential 170 lbs, 21 year old newb squatting 345 for 5 after 2 - 4 months that I referred to.[/quote]

I never said 170. That was something you added after my original response.

For what it’s worth, I think a properly motivated 170 lbs, 21 y/o male could achieve that kind of squat in under 4 months, but I feel it would be the exception rather than the rule. I’ve tried teaching SS to a number of people that I thought would respond well but their mind just wasn’t in it. I think it takes a certain kind of individual to embrace that kind of pain day after day. It’s made me much more hesitant to recommend SS to people now that I know most of them simply won’t do it properly, then blame the program for their lack of results.

151

Look, man, you are obviously angry about something, so I’m sorry for rustling your jimmies. But you did essentially call Some Dude a liar when you refuted his numbers. You don’t want to call it that, that’s fine. Bottom line, I agree that very few novices will hit those numbers with a BW of 170 or otherwise - we’re in agreement.

But if that’s the case, and you expect people to reset their #s when they hit their wall at say 2 or 3 months, how far do you expect them to get? I admit I’m no trainer, and I’m going off anecdotes, but everyone I’ve seen reset SS goes not too much farther than where they left off.

You have this attitude like SS must last soooo much longer than 3-4 months. I’m still not really sure why. It would have been one thing if you said, “you know, 3-4 months is too short in my experience. I’d say it should usually take 9 months, or a year or whatever” Instead you told me that 3-4 months was “antithetical to good sense.” That’s a statement, my friend! I broke down my numbers, you haven’t refuted the 5-10lb linear progression per session.

Just tell me how it’s supposed to go down so I can understand where you are coming from. Otherwise, I’ll say this is one of things we’re not going to agree about.

Also, RR is a goon. Find me a good FDR video.

152

[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
Look, man, you are obviously angry about something

[/quote]

He is not angry, trust me…you can tell when he is…haha

He is just trying to impart some wisdom to you, since he has been lifting for about 30 years. Us old farts have learned from our many mistakes.

Listen to what he is saying.

153

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
Look, man, you are obviously angry about something

[/quote]

He is not angry, trust me…you can tell when he is…haha

He is just trying to impart some wisdom to you, since he has been lifting for about 30 years. Us old farts have learned from our many mistakes.

Listen to what he is saying.[/quote]

I am listening. I agree with him almost entirely. All I’m asking is that he tells me how he sees the typical, well-run SS program going down so I can learn my error. I admit I don’t know everything about SS, but just giving me sassy comments all day does nothing to educate me if I am in fact wrong.

I crunched the numbers and I don’t see most people getting farther than 300-350lb on a 3x5 linear progression. If you do it right and eat/rest enough, that’s where you’ll be in 3-4 months. Help me understand what Im missing. Edumucate me, man.

154

[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
Look, man, you are obviously angry about something

[/quote]

He is not angry, trust me…you can tell when he is…haha

He is just trying to impart some wisdom to you, since he has been lifting for about 30 years. Us old farts have learned from our many mistakes.

Listen to what he is saying.[/quote]

I am listening. I agree with him almost entirely. All I’m asking is that he tells me how he sees the typical, well-run SS program going down so I can learn my error. I admit I don’t know everything about SS, but just giving me sassy comments all day does nothing to educate me if I am in fact wrong.

I crunched the numbers and I don’t see most people getting farther than 300-350lb on a 3x5 linear progression. If you do it right and eat/rest enough, that’s where you’ll be in 3-4 months. Help me understand what Im missing. Edumucate me, man. [/quote]

There are folks that go either way of course…but I think he is saying that if you give it 100% effort you can get more out of SS than just a few months…and that a true beginner is going to need more time to base build.

I think you are both on the same page, it’s just a slight difference in theory.

Newbs (not that I am assuming you are one) tend to switch programs too soon before they get all the benefits out on the one they are currently on.

155

[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
But you did essentially call Some Dude a liar when you refuted his numbers.[/quote]

In fairness, I think he has a right to call out someone on their claims, and I feel that expecting someone to back up their claim is different from calling someone an outright liar.

Beyond that, I think we’re all more or less agreeing on the shit that actually matters.

156

Push.

With Starting Strength, the specific loading criteria is to start light and add 5-10 lbs to every lift THREE TIMES PER WEEK.

That sort of progression is going to exhaust itself fairly quickly. For every one of the typical 170 lb 21 year old trainees that I’ve put through “the program” that I outlined in the “how should a newb train” thread, this is 3-6 months and they end up benching low 200’s and squatting high 200’s for 3x5. The purpose of this phase is to gain strength as quickly as possible while the general stimulus of training is still very very new. This phase should end once the ability to add weight to the bar every single workout is exhausted.

After that, it makes more sense to switch to a program like 5/3/1, Juggernaut, or Texas Method. All of these are “work the heavy compounds” as you mentioned earlier, but follow a more moderate and slower progression model that is tailored towards the adaptive capacity of an intermediate.

I’m not really sure what you’re arguing about here.

158

[quote]eaboadar wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
urgh, this again.

Rippetoe writes programs designed around teaching beginner to intermediate lifters the basic barbell lifts. That’s all he does. To say Rippetoe sucks is wrong, because he does what he does exceptionally well. When these discussions come up people point out that his programs are no good for bodybuilding. Rip doesn’t give a shit about bodybuilding. He gives a shit about the basic, barbell lifts, and that’s what he teaches with a huge degree of skill and success.

If you don’t want to do a program based off of the basic BB lifts, then you wouldn’t do one of Rip’s programs. That doesn’t make his programs bad, or make him a bad coach, it just means that your goals are not in line with what Rip teaches. Not everyone that lifts weights wants to get into bodybuilding or cares about things like making sure their rear delts or upper chest don’t lag. Some people just like to squat, bench and clean heavy. For these people, Rip’s programs like SS or the Texas Method are a fine choice for as long as they can progress without needing some kind of periodisation.

And he doesn’t recommend GOMAD for everyone, just the skinny teenage kids that need the calories.

You might not want to do one of his programs, but there is no denying that Rip is exceptional at coaching what he does, and his programs will most definitely get you strong in the basic lifts. If your goals require a different program, then do a different program. That doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with Rip’s programs, just that they don’t suit your goals.[/quote]

This should pretty much end the discussion, especially since his programs and teachings have proven to be effective for those who’s goals are in line with the program’s objectives.

Also, he’s the man when it comes to teaching the basic lifts. His book does a terrific job at detailing them. Some of the minor details have been somewhat controversial (for example looking straight/down instead of up when squatting) but that’s just silly people getting their panties in a bunch over minutia. The overall approach is spot on.[/quote]

I respect Rip and his solid reputation, but I still think it’s strange how he teaches lifters to raise their hips before their shoulders when coming out of the whole during a barbell squat. Most here know that this is what happens when your quads get tired at the end of your set. I don’t get why he teaches that type of (fatigued?) form for every single rep. It reduces quad involvement.

159

[quote]some_dude wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Of course I could be wrong but you weren’t squatting 345 clean reps for 5 after two months after never touching a barbell before with a bodyweight of 170. If so, post a video and expect me to critique your depth (which I’ve found 90% of the time is too shallow and therefore a pseudo number)

Even then, the TX Method is just a variant of “Work the Basic Compound Lifts” by the SAME guy – the same guy who essentially says full depth back squats kick leg extension’s ass as a foundation for strength training.[/quote]

I filmed me hitting 315 because it was a milestone moment for me. The third set is from the side… skip to 1:43 if you want to see it.

FWIW, I’m 35 and 200lbs. The last time I squatted I was 14 years ago and it was nancy 1/4 squats @ 225. I thought I was boss because I was squatting two plates.

Anyway…

Squatting three times a week with 10 pound increments adds up to 30 pounds a week or 240 pounds over 8 weeks. 125+240=365. I achieved 355x5.[/quote]

Nice job on the squats…form was killer.

160

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Push.

With Starting Strength, the specific loading criteria is to start light and add 5-10 lbs to every lift THREE TIMES PER WEEK.

That sort of progression is going to exhaust itself fairly quickly. For every one of the typical 170 lb 21 year old trainees that I’ve put through “the program” that I outlined in the “how should a newb train” thread, this is 3-6 months and they end up benching low 200’s and squatting high 200’s for 3x5. The purpose of this phase is to gain strength as quickly as possible while the general stimulus of training is still very very new. This phase should end once the ability to add weight to the bar every single workout is exhausted.

After that, it makes more sense to switch to a program like 5/3/1, Juggernaut, or Texas Method. All of these are “work the heavy compounds” as you mentioned earlier, but follow a more moderate and slower progression model that is tailored towards the adaptive capacity of an intermediate.

I’m not really sure what you’re arguing about here.[/quote]

My take on it is the 5 - 10 lbs can be scaled back as the progression increases. I don’t think the EXACT poundage of 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 is the key factor. Consistent progression with the compounds is.

I have no problem with your suggestions, however.

My main beef in this whole thread was with the morons who claimed Rippetoe is basically a charlatan and doesn’t know what he’s talking about. EVERYTHING I’ve ever read by the man is consistent with my training philosophy even though I’ve never done one of his specific programs.

My secondary beef was with whoever it was that claimed, or seemed to, that a brand spankin new sprout of green grass should/could be squatting 345 for 5 after 2 - 4 months. Hogwash.[/quote]

Gotcha.

My opinion is that it’s more productive just to alter the periodization model after the initial adaptation phase is over rather than resorting to microloading, but that’s a difference of opinion and not really a big deal.

Most people see the sets x reps that Rippetoe recommends and get so caught up in arguing against that that they miss the big overall themes of his writing, which are very solid concepts that everyone with physique or strength goals should be conscientious of. Forest vs. trees and all that. Like all of this nonsense about there not being any barbell curls listed in SS, so Rippetoe doesn’t believe in direct bicep work, and then he goes and says “We curl the barbell because it puts more strain on the biceps than other exercises. There’s no need to get philosophical about this, we’re just training arms.”

Too much zealotry over this stuff.