Thoughts on Mark Rippetoe?

Training
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[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Different strokes for different folks.[/quote]

IRONICALLY, this part of your message directly contradicts the message of Ripp’s article.

Interesting…[/quote]

I don’t believe he discussed nutrition in the article?

Did I miss it.

Rip’s views on nutrition do not correlate with his views on weightlifting, unless I am mistaken.

Which I often am.[/quote]

No he did not. But in general, I think Ripp needs to acknowledge exactly what you said “different strokes for different folks.” His tone has become more and more dogmatic these days.

Am I making any sense? lol[/quote]

Totally…in his videos he has a curmugone look to him.

He is old school and not likely to change…but if you want to learn how to deadlift/squat/clean correctly there is nobody better,.[/quote]

“nobody better” might be a stretch…lol. Any reputable PLing or athletic performance gym should have a handful of coaches just as qualified if not more so.

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[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Different strokes for different folks.[/quote]

IRONICALLY, this part of your message directly contradicts the message of Ripp’s article.

Interesting…[/quote]

I don’t believe he discussed nutrition in the article?

Did I miss it.

Rip’s views on nutrition do not correlate with his views on weightlifting, unless I am mistaken.

Which I often am.[/quote]

No he did not. But in general, I think Ripp needs to acknowledge exactly what you said “different strokes for different folks.” His tone has become more and more dogmatic these days.

Am I making any sense? lol[/quote]
I agree with that. I think Rip is awesome, but he reaches too far with some of his statements, i.e. bodybuilders “may” need to do barbell rows in addition to their work of squats, deads, cleans, and overhead presses

63

[quote]flch95 wrote:

[quote]bpick86 wrote:
I have a question for those of you who don’t like Rip or SS. For someone who cannot bench their bodyweight, or squat it for that matter (more common than you think), and is interested in bodybuilding, would you put them on a body part type split initially or more of a whole body plan geared towards strength initially?[/quote]
There are basic full body routines that just seem more balanced to me than the 3 exercise workout types. If your goal is BB, then doing direct arm work, hamstring work from the beginning can’t possibly hurt. Doesn’t have to be an assault on the muscle…just a couple sets of bicep curls on top of rows and chin ups/pull ups to finish off…or seated hamstring curls…nothing complicated. I say this because I used to believe the “compound only” and “you don’t need to train arms directly” stuff and my arms have suffered; chest/back got stronger/bigger though.[/quote]

I can see what you are saying here. And to that, the advanced beginner SS routine would probably be a better choice from the start for someone interested in more of a bodybuilding goal because it adds chins and back extensions. Also replaceing the Power clean with a BB Row mignt not be a bad idea either. Curls and skullcrushers are included in the Starting Strength book and Bill Star’s 5x5 had a “beach work” assistance day on Friday for stuff like that.

While I think from a BB standpoint there are some tweaks that could make SS more useful, I think the thing that gets Rip going is people making those tweaks and then complaining that SS doesn’t work because they failed miserably with the programming.

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And I am not advocating for someone that is interested in bodybuilding stay on a workout like that for very long but I think it is a great idea to put a very low level beginner on it for some good cheap gains for a little while before they venture out to far.

65

341×597 49.4 KB

This is the Starting Strength program people think is crap? I used GOMAD 20rep squats, bench press singles, and Yates Rows for 5x5 for a year to go from 145 to 190 at 5’8" and man the milk was GREAT! And I don’t pay 6$ for it–more like 3.50$. Someone is going to the wrong store.

But THIS is causing arguments? Really?

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Press
5x3 Power cleans

I went over to ExRx and looked at how much muscle is being missed by these combinations from overlapping systemic effects. The answer is…none. Head to toe.

The problem isn’t the exercises at these set/rep schemes; it’s strength levels. People really think their arms are going to be small if they go from bench press 135x5 to 275x5? Just become little untrained twigs?
People think you can move your Deadlift north of 400lbs heading up to more weight or pull off power cleans with more than 225lbs for reps and their posterior chain (hamstring included) are going to be scrawny rubber bands? That’s moronic.

This is basically the routine used by Reg Park whose list of championship BB wins is extensive. The ONLY thing that’s changed between now and then is that the gym pharmacy and tanning oil cream have increased in strength exponentially. To insane levels.

To hell with this just being a SS program–you could use this template (assuming you work on progression) and make the bikini short wearing ass hat on the leg curl machine look like exactly NOT the kind of guy you want on an athletic field let alone have your back in a street fight.

Want to be a BB? Take SS and add copious Anavar+HGH+Insulin+Clenbuterol. You’ll be just fine on stage and with a 300lbs overhead press no one’s going to say even one single time “his rear delts are small”

66

[quote]pulphero wrote:
And I don’t pay 6$ for it–more like 3.50$. Someone is going to the wrong store.
[/quote]
Dude, I live in Alberta, Canada…everything is expensive here as most people here are rolling in the oil money, lol.

67

[quote]pulphero wrote:
This is the Starting Strength program people think is crap? I used GOMAD 20rep squats, bench press singles, and Yates Rows for 5x5 for a year to go from 145 to 190 at 5’8" and man the milk was GREAT! And I don’t pay 6$ for it–more like 3.50$. Someone is going to the wrong store.

But THIS is causing arguments? Really?

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Press
5x3 Power cleans

I went over to ExRx and looked at how much muscle is being missed by these combinations from overlapping systemic effects. The answer is…none. Head to toe.

The problem isn’t the exercises at these set/rep schemes; it’s strength levels. People really think their arms are going to be small if they go from bench press 135x5 to 275x5? Just become little untrained twigs?
People think you can move your Deadlift north of 400lbs heading up to more weight or pull off power cleans with more than 225lbs for reps and their posterior chain (hamstring included) are going to be scrawny rubber bands? That’s moronic.

This is basically the routine used by Reg Park whose list of championship BB wins is extensive. The ONLY thing that’s changed between now and then is that the gym pharmacy and tanning oil cream have increased in strength exponentially. To insane levels.

To hell with this just being a SS program–you could use this template (assuming you work on progression) and make the bikini short wearing ass hat on the leg curl machine look like exactly NOT the kind of guy you want on an athletic field let alone have your back in a street fight.

Want to be a BB? Take SS and add copious Anavar+HGH+Insulin+Clenbuterol. You’ll be just fine on stage and with a 300lbs overhead press no one’s going to say even one single time “his rear delts are small”[/quote]

There is so much bro-science fail in this post I don’t even know where to begin.

Since a pic is worth 1000 words here’s me from when I first hit 4 plate DL and 3 plate squat. Was also DB pressing 100s for reps by this point in my training career, too.
[photo]29257[/photo]

68

[quote]pulphero wrote:
This is the Starting Strength program people think is crap? I used GOMAD 20rep squats, bench press singles, and Yates Rows for 5x5 for a year to go from 145 to 190 at 5’8" and man the milk was GREAT!
[/quote]

I love Yates Rows on in a SS template for guys just looking for size. Gives a pretty good middle ground between the high pull of the Power Clean and the BB Row.

69

^^so what caused the transformation to your avatar then? Assuming that’s you, lol.

70

I think a lot of the stuff Rip says that pisses people off, like how bodybuilders “may” need rows, are just him playing up to his persona. He has a reputation as a loud mouth, ball busting mother fucker who doesn’t waste time on what he would probably call “pussy shit.”

Just google “the wisdom of Rip” and you’ll see what I mean

71

flch95–sorry about the Canada milk prices.

jskbrk–I don’t know you. And in these posts as on all internet forums it is possible to have a disagreement and keep it civil–not attack each other personally. I really, honestly try to do that.

But in this case as much as I hate to admit it --I do not believe you.
That’s simply not the body you had when you are repping 3x5 315lbs full squats or pulling 405lbs for the same. As for 100lbs DB presses I can’t swallow it. I’ve worked out in the army, in commercial gyms, private gyms and now at Western Oregon’s gym and I have NEVER (and I’m 42, been lifting for a bit now) since a body frame like that moving the weight you’re claiming.

I will concede you could have very good body leverages and perhaps mutant level thickness in your ligaments and tendons which would result in strength far beyond the shown muscle level–it could happen by you would be an extreme exception and no where near the rule for those kind of strength gains.

But I’ve never seen ANYONE moving those numbers looking that untrained. (and I should add; I know that was a personal attack but I don’t mean it out of anger, I simply can’t believe it because you are showing me a completely unique and singular example–now because I think you’re evil).

I’ll stick with bro-science (which often is a synonym for experience vs. theory) on this one. (and again, sorry for the insult)

72

TO: jskrabac

Many props on your transformation man. You obviously cannot be dismissed as having crazy genetics because I have know plenty of guys that if they had those strength levels would have looked like beasts just from that. Much admiration for you giving the middle finger to the gene pool.

Hope you don’t take offense to this, it is meant in kindness.

73

[quote]setto222 wrote:
I once heard a quote somewhere along the lines of “Rippetoe is brilliant. He targets a young un-trained demographic who would see gains with just about anything. He almost guarantees success”.

I like Ripp. I think his knowledge and ability to teach barbell work is absolutely incredible. However, I kind of find it annoying that every beginner is told “Do starting strength” almost automatically. I’m not saying it doesn’t work, but it’s not the only way.

Coming back to the article posted at the top of this thread, I liked one of the comments in the livespill by Son_of_man in regards to the article: “Disappointed in you Rip. You’ve said some good stuff in the past. Now you just sound short-sighted and dogmatic”[/quote]

Setto, I’m touched :wink:

74

[quote]pulphero wrote:
flch95–sorry about the Canada milk prices.

jskbrk–I don’t know you. And in these posts as on all internet forums it is possible to have a disagreement and keep it civil–not attack each other personally. I really, honestly try to do that.

But in this case as much as I hate to admit it --I do not believe you.
That’s simply not the body you had when you are repping 3x5 315lbs full squats or pulling 405lbs for the same. As for 100lbs DB presses I can’t swallow it. I’ve worked out in the army, in commercial gyms, private gyms and now at Western Oregon’s gym and I have NEVER (and I’m 42, been lifting for a bit now) since a body frame like that moving the weight you’re claiming.

I will concede you could have very good body leverages and perhaps mutant level thickness in your ligaments and tendons which would result in strength far beyond the shown muscle level–it could happen by you would be an extreme exception and no where near the rule for those kind of strength gains.

But I’ve never seen ANYONE moving those numbers looking that untrained. (and I should add; I know that was a personal attack but I don’t mean it out of anger, I simply can’t believe it because you are showing me a completely unique and singular example–now because I think you’re evil).

I’m stick with bro-science (which often is a synonym for experience vs. theory) on this one. (and again, sorry for the insult)[/quote]

Really?! lol. Have you never been to a PL meet? I was 196 in those photos and swear by the numbers on my mother’s life. I’m not the guy who has anything to hide and logs everything on here, numbers, and weekly photos to boot.

4 plate deadlift is not THAT impressive. That level of strength comes from a matter of conditioning the CNS and improving neurological efficiency just as much as muscular size.

And here’s cressey at 165lb I believe: EC 660 Deadlift - YouTube

Everything in your post here is once again bro-science. Set in this belief that certain numbers automatically guarantee you a certain level of musculature. It’s downright false. So much more to it, and that’s the beef with SS.

P.S. Not personally attacking you at all, just your post. Very different thing to me. Have you ever competed btw?

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That was a weird loss of post. Where did it go. Flch95 sorry 'bout the crazy milk prices.

Jaskrbc. I hate it in discussions when things turn person. It’s such a common practice on forums I try and avoid when ever possible and I see no evidence you’re a bad guy. But in this case I’m going to break my rule.

I just don’t believe you.

3x5 at 315lbs full squats, pulling 405lbs deads for the same and pushing 100’s with DBs? No. Or if so you are a truly unique individual. I’m 42. Been in gyms from high school to the army to commercial to private to now Western Oregon U. Never have I seen a physique like your picture moving that kind of weight. I’ve seen small guys doing it, yes but they were thick as hell.

Maybe you have great leverages, maybe you have mutant level thickness in your tendons and ligaments. Maybe. You move that kind of weight and that’s the body you got? You had a unique (as far as I can tell in my experience) experience.

I hate calling you a liar because I don’t want to flame or troll but that’s just the first thing that popped in my head with the picture. I’ve never seen those numbers with those reps done with a body so un-trained in appearance. Hell, I don’t even mind saying I’m sorry for the insult, and I’m sincere. But I don’t believe it.

Bro-science is a misused term lately.

76

[quote]flch95 wrote:
^^so what caused the transformation to your avatar then? Assuming that’s you, lol.[/quote]

Well, I stopped just doing the basic BB lifts and focusing on only improving my numbers every week and actually learned about proper lifting and diet for physique focus, lol.

77

[quote]bpick86 wrote:
TO: jskrabac

Many props on your transformation man. You obviously cannot be dismissed as having crazy genetics because I have know plenty of guys that if they had those strength levels would have looked like beasts just from that. Much admiration for you giving the middle finger to the gene pool.

Hope you don’t take offense to this, it is meant in kindness.[/quote]

Luckily, no one to date has accused me of having good genetics, or being “gifted” with a good metabolism. And no offense taken. I know exactly what you mean.

Sad part, I wasn’t a lazy chump or anything either. Competitor swimmer from age 6 through varsity swimming in high school. Very active throughout college too with intramurals and dance.

78

As far as I understood the article I found the message to be focus on whats matters for your goal.
( Doesnt mean I will ever hire Rip as a coach if I ever decided to compete in bodybuilding )

The one thing I disagree with him on is his downplaying of the pull/chin up and rowing. IMO they should
be taken as serious as Bench and OHP from a shoulder health, being awesome and a “looking good neekid” perspective. I dont believe 1 or 2 work set a week on DL and 3 or 6 work sets of Cleans a week are enough for
Lats/Upperback development. If I where to follow a SS type split I would make some changes.

I would set it up as this:

A.
Squat: 3x5.
Bench. 3x5.
DB row: 3x10 pr arm.
Biceps/Triceps: 3x 10-15 each.
Abs/Core: 3 sets.

B.
OHP: 3x5.
DL: 1x5.
Pull/Chin up: ( sets/reps dependent on the individuals Chin/Pull up strenght )
Rear delts/Side delts: 3x 10-20 each.
Abs/core: 3 sets.

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[quote]pulphero wrote:
That was a weird loss of post. Where did it go. Flch95 sorry 'bout the crazy milk prices.

Jaskrbc. I hate it in discussions when things turn person. It’s such a common practice on forums I try and avoid when ever possible and I see no evidence you’re a bad guy. But in this case I’m going to break my rule.

I just don’t believe you.

3x5 at 315lbs full squats, pulling 405lbs deads for the same and pushing 100’s with DBs? No. Or if so you are a truly unique individual. I’m 42. Been in gyms from high school to the army to commercial to private to now Western Oregon U. Never have I seen a physique like your picture moving that kind of weight. I’ve seen small guys doing it, yes but they were thick as hell.

Maybe you have great leverages, maybe you have mutant level thickness in your tendons and ligaments. Maybe. You move that kind of weight and that’s the body you got? You had a unique (as far as I can tell in my experience) experience.

I hate calling you a liar because I don’t want to flame or troll but that’s just the first thing that popped in my head with the picture. I’ve never seen those numbers with those reps done with a body so un-trained in appearance. Hell, I don’t even mind saying I’m sorry for the insult, and I’m sincere. But I don’t believe it.

Bro-science is a misused term lately.[/quote]

Seriously? I will echo what Jake has been saying. When I first started putting numbers like that up, I looked like I didn’t lift aside from having a big ass. Strength does not equal mass. Putting up a weight and fully stimulating a muscle are two entirely different worlds.