Just to play devils advocate here X. I agree i dont like the idea or the term ‘limit’ here but i think there is alot of value in setting up realistic expectations for some trainees. Having someone chase unrealistic goals can in most cases be detrimental or even dangerous. It can lead to large let downs, injuries, most often than not it will lead to overeating and justifying bad behavior. [/quote]
In all cases, people should be looking at the results they are actually getting. It does no good to have “great expectations” if you still weigh 130lbs after 10 years of training.
I feel they should “curb” expectations if the results they get say so. Why would I “curb” the expectations of someone with Kai Greene genetics?[/quote]
You making that last sentence a question confuses me. Pretty sure that is the point i was trying to make.
[quote]gregron wrote:
No one has ever told someone to “curb” their efforts. No one.[/quote]
Telling someone that no natural has ever gained 80lbs of lean body mass can do just that. It isn’t even a true statement. It ONLY applies to people who have competed in natural bodybuilding contests.
I am really not sure how this is disturbing you or anyone else.
We already know that NONE of the “naturals” looked at to come up with this baseless limit started after the age of 21.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I personally don’t see that is odd for a regular weight lifter who stays in the gym 6 days a week for over a decade to carry 210lbs of lean body mass at that weight.
[/quote]
^^100% agree. It wouldn’t be odd for a dedicated weightlifter who stays in the gym 6 days a week for over a decade to carry 210lbs of lean body mass. That would actually be pretty impressive.
You do realize that being 305 and carrying 210lbs of LBM would put you over 30% BF right.
[quote]gregron wrote:
No one has ever told someone to “curb” their efforts. No one.[/quote]
Telling someone that no natural has ever gained 80lbs of lean body mass can do just that. It isn’t even a true statement. It ONLY applies to people who have competed in natural bodybuilding contests.
I am really not sure how this is disturbing you or anyone else.
[/quote]
So you’re agreeing with me that no one had ever told someone to curb their efforts?
I’m really not sure how this discussion is disturbing you so much.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I personally don’t see that is odd for a regular weight lifter who stays in the gym 6 days a week for over a decade to carry 210lbs of lean body mass at that weight.
[/quote]
^^100% agree. It wouldn’t be odd for a dedicated weightlifter who stays in the gym 6 days a week for over a decade to carry 210lbs of lean body mass. That would actually be pretty impressive.
You do realize that being 305 and carrying 210lbs of LBM would put you over 30% BF right.[/quote]
[quote]gregron wrote:
No one has ever told someone to “curb” their efforts. No one.[/quote]
Telling someone that no natural has ever gained 80lbs of lean body mass can do just that. It isn’t even a true statement. It ONLY applies to people who have competed in natural bodybuilding contests.
I am really not sure how this is disturbing you or anyone else.
[/quote]
So you’re agreeing with me that no one had ever told someone to curb their efforts?
I’m really not sure how this discussion is disturbing you so much.[/quote]
?? Telling someone that something is “impossible” when it isn’t to me qualifies as “curbing someone’s efforts”.
If you disagree, so be it…but you seem to enjoy playing semantics more than you enjoy reaching any “truth”.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I personally don’t see that is odd for a regular weight lifter who stays in the gym 6 days a week for over a decade to carry 210lbs of lean body mass at that weight.
[/quote]
^^100% agree. It wouldn’t be odd for a dedicated weightlifter who stays in the gym 6 days a week for over a decade to carry 210lbs of lean body mass. That would actually be pretty impressive.
You do realize that being 305 and carrying 210lbs of LBM would put you over 30% BF right.[/quote]
I didn’t say those were my numbers. [/quote]
So what were you?
220lbs of LBM? 28% BF
230lbs of LBM? 25% BF
240lbs of LBM? 21% BF
[quote]gregron wrote:
No one has ever told someone to “curb” their efforts. No one.[/quote]
Telling someone that no natural has ever gained 80lbs of lean body mass can do just that. It isn’t even a true statement. It ONLY applies to people who have competed in natural bodybuilding contests.
I am really not sure how this is disturbing you or anyone else.
[/quote]
So you’re agreeing with me that no one had ever told someone to curb their efforts?
I’m really not sure how this discussion is disturbing you so much.[/quote]
?? Telling someone that something is “impossible” when it isn’t to me qualifies as “curbing someone’s efforts”.
If you disagree, so be it…but you seem to enjoy playing semantics more than you enjoy reaching any “truth”.
[/quote]
Curbing someone’s unreal expectations? Yes. Telling them to put less effort into the gym? Definitely no.
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
If discussing the limits of how much muscle can be gained naturally causes someone to not train as hard then maybe they aren’t cut out for this.
[/quote]
For years people thought it was impossible to build an arm bigger than 19"…until Leroy Colbert did it…then suddenly tons of people were doing it…then he hit 21".
We are talking about reaching extreme limits here. Yes, to do that takes more belief than average and the last thing someone with that ability needs is someone telling them they can’t.[/quote]
People break records and achieve great things all the time without first believing it was possible. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard an athlete or person who broke a record or achieved something great say something to the effect of, “When I first started out I never would have believed this was possible.”
On this flip side you have all kinds up-and-comers who think they are pretty dang awesome and believe they are sure to be the next Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, Barry Bonds, or Ronnie Coleman. Then they get to the elite level and are disappointed to find out they are actually an average pro.
Reading Gregron and X go back and forth all the time reminds me of my two dogs. They fight and wrestle all day long. Sometimes it seems like one actually gets really mad and starts going at the other really hard, and sometimes it seems like they both are just pushing the limits with eachother.
I always assume they are just messing around in good fun but for the most part, i can never really tell how much of it is ‘playing’ and how much of it the two of them really going after the other one. Either way, i cant help but look away and I am so damned entertained.
I think the only exception is i dont see gregron and X cuddling up next to eachother on the couch after a good fight and cheeseburger.
People break records and achieve great things all the time without first believing it was possible. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard an athlete or person who broke a record or achieved something great say something to the effect of, “When I first started out I never would have believed this was possible.”
On this flip side you have all kinds up-and-comers who think they are pretty dang awesome and believe they are sure to be the next Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, Barry Bonds, or Ronnie Coleman. Then they get to the elite level and are disappointed to find out they are actually an average pro.[/quote]
Dear Lord.
There is a reason the first women in certain careers and the first blacks in certain careers are held as significant. It is because they broke a perceived barrier.
Less people in general will ever TRY to do something if the prevailing notion is that it is “impossible”…even if more can actually do it.
I already know you will keep arguing…but to say this isn’t the case just means there is no point in arguing further with you.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I personally don’t see that is odd for a regular weight lifter who stays in the gym 6 days a week for over a decade to carry 210lbs of lean body mass at that weight.
[/quote]
^^100% agree. It wouldn’t be odd for a dedicated weightlifter who stays in the gym 6 days a week for over a decade to carry 210lbs of lean body mass. That would actually be pretty impressive.
You do realize that being 305 and carrying 210lbs of LBM would put you over 30% BF right.[/quote]
I didn’t say those were my numbers. [/quote]
So what were you?
220lbs of LBM? 28% BF
230lbs of LBM? 25% BF
240lbs of LBM? 21% BF
[/quote]
X has written before that he would likely compete around 230 pounds. Not sure if he still believes that, but that is what he wrote at one point.
X has written before that he would likely compete around 230 pounds. Not sure if he still believes that, but that is what he wrote at one point. [/quote]
People break records and achieve great things all the time without first believing it was possible. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard an athlete or person who broke a record or achieved something great say something to the effect of, “When I first started out I never would have believed this was possible.”
On this flip side you have all kinds up-and-comers who think they are pretty dang awesome and believe they are sure to be the next Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, Barry Bonds, or Ronnie Coleman. Then they get to the elite level and are disappointed to find out they are actually an average pro.[/quote]
Dear Lord.
There is a reason the first women in certain careers and the first blacks in certain careers are held as significant. It is because they broke a perceived barrier.
Less people in general will ever TRY to do something if the prevailing notion is that it is “impossible”…even if more can actually do it.
I already know you will keep arguing…but to say this isn’t the case just means there is no point in arguing further with you.[/quote]
You’re comparing genetic, biological limits to the institutional barriers of racism and sexism that were imposed by other humans.
X has written before that he would likely compete around 230 pounds. Not sure if he still believes that, but that is what he wrote at one point. [/quote]
lol…[/quote]
This is honestly why I told him to be careful about using himself as an example. He likes to use himself as an example, and then skirt questions about what he actually thinks his LBM is (will not answer Gregron’s question), and now is being laughed at because he, at one point in time, thought he would compete at 230 pounds.
I actually agree with him on the limitations point - no one thought a sub 4 minute mile was doable until Bannister…then everyone was doing it. But that doesn’t mean it hurts people to have more realistic expectations, either. He is saying let progress decide what your limits are. We’re saying the same thing, and we’re also pointing out the progress for everyone in the history of natural bodybuilding suggests 80 lbs of LBM added is not realistic.
