The Westside Method Thread II

Training Powerlifting
161

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Jim Wendler has an article about this. He says he cycles it every 3 weeks or recommends it.

Personally, that sounds like a healthy compromise.

Also, I was watching Power Project funnily enough and it was mentioned there too. Quite an odd coincidence really but, yes, he says that he alternates every week between one time doing like 5x5 and other speed work.

[/quote]

Jim Wendler and Mark Bell both understand the effects of modifying a variable of their training (speed work) in a controlled fashion to determine what benefit speed work has for them. Given this experiment, they used their findings to change their training to be more beneficial. Will that work for you? There’s only 1 way to find out.

Bottom line: if speed work isn’t doing anything for you, first you should make sure you’re doing it right. Speed work seems to help a lot of people, it would be somewhat surprising if it wasn’t helping you. Give Wendler’s system a go. If it works, keep it and tune it. If it doesn’t, try to figure out why and fix it – or don’t and move on to something else.

That being said, there are plenty of strong people that don’t do it for whatever reason. I know AJ Roberts doesn’t do it. I think his best bench is 910. You don’t need speed work to be strong.

162

[quote]frankjl wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Jim Wendler has an article about this. He says he cycles it every 3 weeks or recommends it.

Personally, that sounds like a healthy compromise.

Also, I was watching Power Project funnily enough and it was mentioned there too. Quite an odd coincidence really but, yes, he says that he alternates every week between one time doing like 5x5 and other speed work.

[/quote]

Jim Wendler and Mark Bell both understand the effects of modifying a variable of their training (speed work) in a controlled fashion to determine what benefit speed work has for them. Given this experiment, they used their findings to change their training to be more beneficial. Will that work for you? There’s only 1 way to find out.

Bottom line: if speed work isn’t doing anything for you, first you should make sure you’re doing it right. Speed work seems to help a lot of people, it would be somewhat surprising if it wasn’t helping you. Give Wendler’s system a go. If it works, keep it and tune it. If it doesn’t, try to figure out why and fix it – or don’t and move on to something else.

That being said, there are plenty of strong people that don’t do it for whatever reason. I know AJ Roberts doesn’t do it. I think his best bench is 910. You don’t need speed work to be strong.[/quote]
I think the issue is that my form on bench goes from good to terrible within a couple of reps. When I do speed work I am fairly fast but it also means my form gets a bit crappy at times. I think when I do speed work again (taking a break due to finals) I might just do paused bench - any thoughts on this?

Louie Simmons says not to do that as you want the speed to change from one direction to another really quickly (down to up) but if I do it like that then it’s more me doing it fast but also bad form. Thus, it starts defeating the other purpose of DE - technique.

163

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:

[quote]frankjl wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Jim Wendler has an article about this. He says he cycles it every 3 weeks or recommends it.

Personally, that sounds like a healthy compromise.

Also, I was watching Power Project funnily enough and it was mentioned there too. Quite an odd coincidence really but, yes, he says that he alternates every week between one time doing like 5x5 and other speed work.

[/quote]

Jim Wendler and Mark Bell both understand the effects of modifying a variable of their training (speed work) in a controlled fashion to determine what benefit speed work has for them. Given this experiment, they used their findings to change their training to be more beneficial. Will that work for you? There’s only 1 way to find out.

Bottom line: if speed work isn’t doing anything for you, first you should make sure you’re doing it right. Speed work seems to help a lot of people, it would be somewhat surprising if it wasn’t helping you. Give Wendler’s system a go. If it works, keep it and tune it. If it doesn’t, try to figure out why and fix it – or don’t and move on to something else.

That being said, there are plenty of strong people that don’t do it for whatever reason. I know AJ Roberts doesn’t do it. I think his best bench is 910. You don’t need speed work to be strong.[/quote]
I think the issue is that my form on bench goes from good to terrible within a couple of reps. When I do speed work I am fairly fast but it also means my form gets a bit crappy at times. I think when I do speed work again (taking a break due to finals) I might just do paused bench - any thoughts on this?

Louie Simmons says not to do that as you want the speed to change from one direction to another really quickly (down to up) but if I do it like that then it’s more me doing it fast but also bad form. Thus, it starts defeating the other purpose of DE - technique.

[/quote]

I think you should fix your form. Post a video or watch closely to how strong people do it. If you start doing paused bench you’re adding in another training variable without any knowledge of how regular (non-paused) DE work affects you. Also, if your form falls apart on regular speed work, what’s going to happen on a 90, 95, 98% lift?

164

Having bad form on DE Days does not mean DE days won’t help you. It just means you’re not helping yourself by having bad form.

165

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:

[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
I actually don’t do lower DE work but do upper DE work. I have some higher rep training as well for my upper DE work accessory. I feel as though the big benefit of upper DE work is work capacity and the ability to practice technique. My bench has gone up but I can’t say if that is due to dynamic work or just my regular work yet as I haven’t really taken either out in a long time. After nationals maybe I’ll drop DE Upper for awhile and see how things go.[/quote]

How come you don’t do lower DE? Personally I feel that, at least speed pulls, have REALLY helped my deadlift. I’m not entirely sure about DE Squats to be fair.

I was thinking something along the lines of WS4SB from Joe DeFranco who has had great success doing RE instead of DE for Upper. I do like the technique side of DE Upper though. If I do something like 15 sets of it though don’t really feel like doing higher rep bench work after that so maybe the best would be to do more like 8 sets on DE Bench (for any phase) and then some higher rep work? [/quote]

Speed isn’t an issue for me on my squat or deadlift. It is an issue with my bench. Why would I train something I’m good at? If I start to slow down, then I’ll add it back in but for now I can get better results from training something I suck at. While speed pulls may have REALLY helped your deadlift, they don’t do much for me, so again I see no reason to do them.

166

The thing is, for a max single my form will be pretty good but what I find very hard is to do multiple reps. After that first rep things just start going downhill.

167

I agree with Frankjl, fix the form. Are you going off of percentages? and if you are, what percentage is it? You might consider dropping the weight just a bit

168

Did not read the entire thread, but did just want to mention all of my 600 raw benches had DE benching during training. One of the things I have found is because DE work is lighter people don’t take it as seriously as ME work. Your DE work is equally important to gaining strength as ME. Once you learn and believe that, you have found the key to success with conjugate training.

169

[quote]vdizenzo wrote:
Did not read the entire thread, but did just want to mention all of my 600 raw benches had DE benching during training. One of the things I have found is because DE work is lighter people don’t take it as seriously as ME work. Your DE work is equally important to gaining strength as ME. Once you learn and believe that, you have found the key to success with conjugate training.[/quote]

BAM!

170

[quote]Chicksan wrote:
I agree with Frankjl, fix the form. Are you going off of percentages? and if you are, what percentage is it? You might consider dropping the weight just a bit[/quote]

I’m using about 55% and I lift raw. I’ve heard people say to use more as a raw lifter. It’s hard without coaching though! I know you’re meant to be fast but how fast exactly?

In terms of form I meant it in the sense that I can maintain good form and go fairly fast but each of us could also have shitty form and be a bit quicker. I don’t think I’m wrong in saying that. Someone from WSB was saying the same thing with the fact that they started using something to measure their speed on DE days but had to drop it or whatever.

I will try get some videos up to demonstrate what exactly is going on.

171

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:

[quote]Chicksan wrote:
I agree with Frankjl, fix the form. Are you going off of percentages? and if you are, what percentage is it? You might consider dropping the weight just a bit[/quote]

I’m using about 55% and I lift raw. I’ve heard people say to use more as a raw lifter. It’s hard without coaching though! I know you’re meant to be fast but how fast exactly?

In terms of form I meant it in the sense that I can maintain good form and go fairly fast but each of us could also have shitty form and be a bit quicker. I don’t think I’m wrong in saying that. Someone from WSB was saying the same thing with the fact that they started using something to measure their speed on DE days but had to drop it or whatever.

I will try get some videos up to demonstrate what exactly is going on.[/quote]

Michael,

I had the same issues some time ago with benching the lighter weights. To fix your form - imagine PUSHING YOURSELF away from the bar, NOT PUSHING THE BAR away from you. If you are pushing the bar away from you, and trying to be super explosive but have too light a weight to keep your back down, that back will shift and catapult forward as you press. The key to staying tight is squeezing your glutes (I always think ass UP), driving your heels into the floor, getting high on your traps and, once you touch your chest, PUSH YOURSELF AWAY FROM THE BAR all the way to lockout.

Try this and see how it goes. Now I am tight as shit even when benching only with the bar. Shit, by the time I get to 135 I am already dripping sweat. This is a key technique for any kind of pressing.

172

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
It’s hard without coaching though! I know you’re meant to be fast but how fast exactly?[/quote]

perhaps this is something that will be learned with time .

I know that my pulls feel fast as shit at 50% ; presses feel O.K. at same percentage ; squat feels like slow motion . I cant describe it…it’s just the feel . I think maybe thats what Storm means by this being a thinking mans system ; you always need to be paying attention and making adjustments based on how shit feels . if you fail to make adjustments , failure to progress is imminent .

then you switch over to the 531 thread :slight_smile:

173

What are some of everyone’s favorite supplemental movements to use for 5 or 6RM?

For the high rep tricep pre-exhaust on upper days before the heavy tricep extension, does everyone stick to db pressing for a set to failure?

174

[quote]pbclax1 wrote:
What are some of everyone’s favorite supplemental movements to use for 5 or 6RM?

For the high rep tricep pre-exhaust on upper days before the heavy tricep extension, does everyone stick to db pressing for a set to failure?[/quote]

I like GMs, RDLs, and front squats (no box).

For upper, I’ve most recently been working with close grip and ultra wides. Will see how that works out.

175

[quote]pbclax1 wrote:
What are some of everyone’s favorite supplemental movements to use for 5 or 6RM?

For the high rep tricep pre-exhaust on upper days before the heavy tricep extension, does everyone stick to db pressing for a set to failure?[/quote]

For my intensification phase, I’ll do the pre-exhaust with tricep extension 30-40 reps to failure. Then my floor press 6RM.

For my lower body I was doing single-leg hamstring curl 30-40 reps to failure and then RDL 6RM, but I’m thinking this next phase will be strongman event oriented for lower back. Something like zercher/stones to 6RM with a lower back pre-fatigue.

176

squatted for a max tonight . had a NASA ref watch/call depth for the last 3 lifts .

the last attempt was a very solid 380 ; thats a 30 pound PR from my best meet lift prior to that . and easily my fattest squat PR ever ! the 380 did not feel heavy on my back at all ; and it stalled about a third of the way up and I blasted thru that sticking point…something I was never able to do before . I used to fold right over as soon as I stalled…but not tonight . this is extremely good news , as I had no frikkin’ clue where my squat was at . squat training was a bit shaky to non-existant thru all of 2011 ; finally got back on track over the winter . I would attribute most of tonights PR to the last couple months of WS training .

177

so to wrap it up…

cycle began Feb 15 . cycle ended May 5 .

bench progress of 20 pounds .

squat progress of 30 pounds .

deadlift left un-tested . if my squat moves , the DL moves too .

both PR’s are the biggest PR’s I’ve ever hit . and this was the most productive stretch of time since I started lifting ! so yeah , Im pretty stoked !

that puts me very near a 1000 pound total . now I gotta do that in a meet .

next cycle will be the same with the following exceptions…3 accumulation weeks instead of 5 , with a deload seperating the accu and inten. blocks .

need to start working forearms . starting to feel my wrists bending back too far …especially the right (blew it to pieces as a young skateboarder :slight_smile: )

Im taking a little time off too . 4 to 7 days Im thinkin . not too much though…that just sucks harder the first day back squatting…ha .

thanks to all the contributors on this thread . I learned a shitload from you fuckers .

178

[quote]marlboroman wrote:
so to wrap it up…

cycle began Feb 15 . cycle ended May 5 .

bench progress of 20 pounds .

squat progress of 30 pounds .

deadlift left un-tested . if my squat moves , the DL moves too .

both PR’s are the biggest PR’s I’ve ever hit . and this was the most productive stretch of time since I started lifting ! so yeah , Im pretty stoked !

that puts me very near a 1000 pound total . now I gotta do that in a meet .

next cycle will be the same with the following exceptions…3 accumulation weeks instead of 5 , with a deload seperating the accu and inten. blocks .

need to start working forearms . starting to feel my wrists bending back too far …especially the right (blew it to pieces as a young skateboarder :slight_smile: )

Im taking a little time off too . 4 to 7 days Im thinkin . not too much though…that just sucks harder the first day back squatting…ha .

thanks to all the contributors on this thread . I learned a shitload from you fuckers .[/quote]

Good to hear man. Keep it up. A good plan is only like 5% of it. The rest is working YOUR ass off.

179

[quote]pbclax1 wrote:
What are some of everyone’s favorite supplemental movements to use for 5 or 6RM?

For the high rep tricep pre-exhaust on upper days before the heavy tricep extension, does everyone stick to db pressing for a set to failure?[/quote]

RDLs for deadlift, Pause Squats for Squats, JM presses for bench.

In the intesnsification block (I am in it now) I like to use straight barbell exercises for the pre-exhaust. Something as simple as a 225 close grip bench for 25, switch to wide grip for 25, work svery well when it is time to ramp up intensity/meet specific training.

180

When doing accumulation block how many sets ( 3 reps per set) you think is “optimal”)?
I will use 50% on my max bench (and maybe some chains, i need get some bands too…)

I am also little confused about supplemental exercises while doing this block. Supp.exercises should be more general exercises (like GHR,overhead press,lateral raises…?) Share me link if you know where they talk about these exercises.

This system is something,where you can spend a lot of time and learn so f*cking much.

Cheers!