Westside Program Comments

I began a Westside- style program early this year, and I have made great progress on it. Figured I’d discuss it, and clear up some of the misconceptions surrounding it, since I’ve heard everything from “This is the holy grail of strength training” to “I lost strength doing Westside!”

Myths:

  1. The “max-effort” exercises are NOT (flat) barbell bench presses and (free) squats (although, if you’re not regularly competing in power meets, or maxing out as part of a sport training program, I suggest you test these every few months). Instead, you select a compound exercise that works the muscles involved with the bench press, squat, and deadlift. In particular, you want to find your weak points, and select max effort exercises that will help strengthen those.

For the bench press, my exercises include floor presses, close grip bench presses, incline presses, and for the squat/ deadlift, I do good mornings, deadlifts, and box squats. Now, there can also be some confusion about how a “max-effort” workout works. “max-out” each week. For example, in one workout, you floor press 350, and can’t go any higher. Your goal is to floorpress more than 350 in future workouts. Early on in the program, you will be able to do the max effort lifts for “cycles” of 3 weeks.

The first week, you will establish a “base-level” of strength in the lift, and learn the technique a bit better. The second week, you will likely improve, and the third week, you go for a “balls to the wall” max. The idea is to break your record each workout. After you finish your max effort exercise, you will do some accessory movements, done in a few sets of high reps.

These include exercises that work the triceps, lats, and delts for the bench press, and the abs, hamstrings, and lower back for the squat/ deadlift. I also like to throw in exercises that work some of the “overlooked” areas, such as grip training for the deadlift, and rotator cuff training for the bench. While it is important to work all of these muscles, I have found that too much accessory work will actually hinder your progress.

  1. I don’t think it’s true that you need to be an advanced trainee to use the Westside program. However, I think you should have some training experience, say at least a year, on classic linear, or “western” programs, in order to learn the technique of the lifts better, and to get “decently” strong. If you only bench press 135, maxing out every week will likely be a little too taxing.

Personally, I switched to it after the linear periodization programs my coaches gave me, along with 5x5 and others, were only giving me marginal gains. Also, Joe Defranco has a “Westside for Skinny Bastards” template online, which is a Westside style program for weaker people.

Now for my personal results/ thoughts. When I began this program, my gym best bench was 370, best squat was 530, and best deadlift was 415. In the past week, I have been maxing out, doing 3 rep maxes on the bench, squat, and deadlift, since I do “max-sets” of 3 reps on my max effort days.

I was effortlessly able to do 350 for 3 on bench, 510 for 3 on squat, and 375 for 3 on deadlift (far better than what I could do for 3 before I began). Up until 2009, I was able to make 30-50 pounds of gains per year on each of these lifts. From 2009-2010, I only made 15-20 pounds of gains. I was very frustrated, and I desperately wanted to break 400 on bench, so I decided to try something new. Now, I have made close to my usual, yearly gains, in about half a year.

Some of my observations/ comments about the program:

  1. I find the motivation factor of this program to be much higher than it is for linear periodization programs. In linear programs, you often have to lift light for high reps in the early stages. You are given no reason to do this, or no rationale, other than “oh, some guy said it works.” With the Westside program, you are trying to break records every week.

There is a self-motivating factor built right in, since if last workout, you floor pressed 340, and this one you do 345, you know you are getting stronger. And, you get more excited for your workouts, and have to go 100 % every workout, in order to break the record.

  1. The program will vary, depending on if you’re a powerlifter, training for another sport, or are a “washed up meathead”, which is an average person who just wants to be healthy and look good. First of all, if you’re one of the later 2, I suggest not squatting with as quite a wide stance as powerlifters do. As a football and track and field athlete, I am looking to get stronger, not necessarily squat as much as possible.

Also, I have heard reports of people eliminating the dynamic effort days for repeated effort days. Dynamic effort involves using a sub-maximal weight, but lifting it as quickly as possible, whereas repeated effort involves lifting a sub maximal weight for as many reps as possible. I don’t do this.

Dynamic effort days help you to become more explosive and quicker, along with improving the technique of the lifts. Speed and explosive power are essential in most sports. Early on in the program, I skipped the dynamic effort days for a few weeks. I have yet to miss a max effort lift, if I did dynamic effort workouts the week before. Third, I get VERY sore after doing dynamic effort days. I will do 8 sets of 3 reps of 50-60% of my max on bench press, and box squats.

Since beginning to do dynamic effort workouts, my legs look freakier than ever before, even with high reps… And, I had a girl over to my apartment after a first date recently. She accidently rubbed against my leg, and then she felt it and was very fascinated by how “rock solid” it felt. You can guess where the night ended ;).

  1. A personal “wrinkle” I add to the program once in awhile, is to do the exercise for the next “max-effort cycle,” for high reps, after the current max effort workout. For example, if I am close grip bench pressing, and I plan to floor press next week, after I have maxed out on close grip bench, I will do floor presses for about 10-15 reps. If used in moderation, I have found this to work very well.

Great great post; I’ve spent a hell of a long time researching and reading about WS (I think I must have read anything louie or dave have written by now haha).
The thing is, there were still some things I had to actually find out while doing the program to really get it going well. Most of these you’ve actually covered in your post!

In particular I’d like to point out -

This is very true and I often see people doing a crazy amount of accessory work, but even if you take a look at the westside training log (from the westside barbell website), you’ll see that you really want to keep it to 3-4, maybe 5 exercises with the main ME exercise (it seems the more experienced the lifter the fewer the exercises used).
Another thing people seem to have problems with is not going to failure on assistance work - most people need an ego check before they can use lower weights for their sets.

I also agree with this. I am far from advanced but I am getting far better results than I have doing 5x5 and other linear programs. I always hear the argument, ‘yea but you could have even better gains if you did a different program’, and this could be true, but I am more than happy with how WS is going for me.

I think the problem with this is that people get in the conjugate mindset so strongly that the idea of picking an exercise with the greatest carry over to your main lift takes a back seat - the best progress will come from the best ME exercise for yourself, so you really need to think about what you NEED, rather than screwing with boards and chains.

I really think the most important part of WS is putting the research in and really understanding how the workouts work.

Anyway, I don’t mean to derail if I accidentally have, I only mean to agree with/add to your post.

Nice little write-up, you said some good stuff. A correction to your first point though, it can be all three of those lifts, all the time. Conjugate training can mean varying sets and reps on a given lift instead of changing the lift every week. Not a lot of people do that though it seems like it would still burn you out pretty quick.

I read an old westside article, I forget who it was talking about, but a pretty big bencher’s program alternated between close grip and DB presses every week with different sets and reps. The guy it was talking about benched something like 50 billion pounds i think. Any way, The most important part is developing weaknesses. Again, nice job!

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Nice little write-up, you said some good stuff. A correction to your first point though, it can be all three of those lifts, all the time. Conjugate training can mean varying sets and reps on a given lift instead of changing the lift every week. Not a lot of people do that though it seems like it would still burn you out pretty quick.

I read an old westside article, I forget who it was talking about, but a pretty big bencher’s program alternated between close grip and DB presses every week with different sets and reps. The guy it was talking about benched something like 50 billion pounds i think. Any way, The most important part is developing weaknesses. Again, nice job![/quote]

He was referring to the main max effort exercise - how does one change sets and reps for a max effort exercise? You build up to a 1RM (or 3RM), and you only want a handful of reps in the 90% range as it is - there isn’t enough room for variation to repeat the same movement week after week.

Conjugate training for WESTSIDE refers to the mix of max, dynamic, and repetition work… Sure, you can recycle assistance work a lot more by varying sets/reps, but not for the main exercise which whitestpimpuknow was obviously referring to.

It really can’t be all three of those lifts all the time. If you’re doing that you’re not doing westside, or you’re doing it wrong.

It sounds, actually, like you’re getting into programs -very loosely- based on westside or westside principles, which is not worth talking about because really the possibilities at that point are too numerous to consider. It pretty much renders discussion of westside worthless.

In my opinion whitestpimpuknow’s statements still stand.

You can do the big three every week by changing the reps, or changing the type resistance being used (bands of different sizes, chains, or straight weight)

[quote]TomVZ wrote:

Conjugate training for WESTSIDE refers to the mix of max, dynamic, and repetition work… Sure, you can recycle assistance work a lot more by varying sets/reps, but not for the main exercise which whitestpimpuknow was obviously referring to.

[/quote]

In the Book of Methods and articles, Lou uses Conjugate to refer to utilizing a variety of ME movements. I’ve heard to it refering to the use of multiple methods, RE DE and ME (what I believe is called Concurrent) by lots of people, but Lou is fairly clear that the Conjugate method was derived from the Soviet experiment that gave the lifters multiple exercises to train at different times and found that most of the lifters wanted even more variety.

That said, train heavy, train fast, and vary your ME exercises and I don’t think it matters what you call it.

[quote]TomVZ wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Nice little write-up, you said some good stuff. A correction to your first point though, it can be all three of those lifts, all the time. Conjugate training can mean varying sets and reps on a given lift instead of changing the lift every week. Not a lot of people do that though it seems like it would still burn you out pretty quick.

I read an old westside article, I forget who it was talking about, but a pretty big bencher’s program alternated between close grip and DB presses every week with different sets and reps. The guy it was talking about benched something like 50 billion pounds i think. Any way, The most important part is developing weaknesses. Again, nice job![/quote]

He was referring to the main max effort exercise - how does one change sets and reps for a max effort exercise? You build up to a 1RM (or 3RM), and you only want a handful of reps in the 90% range as it is - there isn’t enough room for variation to repeat the same movement week after week.

Conjugate training for WESTSIDE refers to the mix of max, dynamic, and repetition work… Sure, you can recycle assistance work a lot more by varying sets/reps, but not for the main exercise which whitestpimpuknow was obviously referring to.

It really can’t be all three of those lifts all the time. If you’re doing that you’re not doing westside, or you’re doing it wrong.

It sounds, actually, like you’re getting into programs -very loosely- based on westside or westside principles, which is not worth talking about because really the possibilities at that point are too numerous to consider. It pretty much renders discussion of westside worthless.

In my opinion whitestpimpuknow’s statements still stand.
[/quote]

I don’t do that. I was shedding some light on what other people do with the same principles in mind. Actually, I really dont give a shit about what anyone but me does so I don’t even know why I contributed to this.

[quote]threewhitelights wrote:
In the Book of Methods and articles, Lou uses Conjugate to refer to utilizing a variety of ME movements. I’ve heard to it refering to the use of multiple methods, RE DE and ME (what I believe is called Concurrent) by lots of people, but Lou is fairly clear that the Conjugate method was derived from the Soviet experiment that gave the lifters multiple exercises to train at different times and found that most of the lifters wanted even more variety.

That said, train heavy, train fast, and vary your ME exercises and I don’t think it matters what you call it.[/quote]

This is true, I have noticed Louie refer to conjugation as the switching of exercises, but Tate as well as many others always seem to refer to conjugation as the ME/DE/RE, so I AM a little unclear on it. Either way, your point at the end is the most important - it doesn’t really matter what you call it so long as you’re doing it right … I think the main point still stands: ME exercises must be varied.

[quote]crashcrew56 wrote:
You can do the big three every week by changing the reps, or changing the type resistance being used (bands of different sizes, chains, or straight weight)[/quote]

I honestly am curious, I don’t understand how you meaningfully change the reps on a max effort exercise?

(And if you use bands and chains instead of straight weight, it becomes a different exercise and then you -are- switching exercises - it is not a barbell bench press, then, but a reverse band bench press, or a bench press with chains, etc.)

[quote]TomVZ wrote:

I honestly am curious, I don’t understand how you meaningfully change the reps on a max effort exercise?

(And if you use bands and chains instead of straight weight, it becomes a different exercise and then you -are- switching exercises - it is not a barbell bench press, then, but a reverse band bench press, or a bench press with chains, etc.)[/quote]

I agree. If you mean 1RM vs 3RM then you aren’t talking about enough variation IMO for this particular program. If you mean more than that, then it’s no longer true max effort training if you’re doing 3*8 and the such.

I’ll take what you said about box squatting with a grain of salt, as I follow Conjugate Preiodization, and in my 14 week cycle, I will never do a single box squat, simply because I dont like doing them, and they dont help me as much as a free squat would, also I’m on a bench every week in my program, but I’m using bands in various ways, different bars, and chains. I think I have a floor press week in there also. Just me 2 cents, I think everyone gets stronger in different ways using the same method

I was under the impression that this kind of training is bad for your back? Is this true?

What are you supposed to do for the dynamic day exercise? Is it the same lift as the ME day for that week?

The DE Bench day is usually speed bench with some kind of accomidating resistance (to allow you to continue to accelerate through the movement).

DE Squat is a box squat with accomidating resistance. Occasionally includes a few sets of speed deadlifts (for some lifters).

Has anyone seen the video where louie says referring to box squatting that going wide will do everything for close but close wont do anything for wide referring to squat stance. what he basically says is that a wide box squat will bring up your regular stance raw squat. Is this true or is a raw lifter wasting his time sitting back on a box?

box squatting…heres what my experience is so far .

this past winter I did a cycle of rack pulls , bench squats (high box) , and then box squats (low box) . each cycle was 3 or 4 weeks , with a couple heavy deadlift days threw in through-out the 3 months . all ME work was belted only . was also doing speed oriented squats on DE day , against bands , no box (just learning them , very light). weights used to box squat (300 heaviest single)were far below deadlift weights .

tested deadlift 1 RM twice , each time hitting a PR…360 and then 375 with room to spare .

just recently got back up to heavy squatting , and I’m not feeling a whole lot stronger squatting .

so it seems as though the box-squatting did more for my deadlift than it did for my squat .

as far as rotating ME lifts , it seems Im better off sticking with a lift for sevsral weeks , focusing mostly in the 5 to 3 rep range , aiming for PR’s but NOT constantly missing lifts .

this is just my own experience . a late starting , not so talented , 40 something powerlifter gonna-be . so this info may not be worth much to anybody else .

For me, as a raw, medium stance squatter, if I’m not using bands, I’m gunna choose the free squat 90% of the time since I get much better carryover from that. I’ve heard others say this as well.

However, on speed day and any time I use bands, I will use a box.

And despite not liking wide stance box squats to bring up my squat, they definitely bring up my deadlift.

[quote]threewhitelights wrote:
For me, as a raw, medium stance squatter, if I’m not using bands, I’m gunna choose the free squat 90% of the time since I get much better carryover from that. I’ve heard others say this as well.

However, on speed day and any time I use bands, I will use a box.

And despite not liking wide stance box squats to bring up my squat, they definitely bring up my deadlift.[/quote]

the rack pull/hi box/lo box cycles were an idea I got from here , just to see if I could get my deadlift to move without actually pulling . and it did work .

I am now considering adding band work in as ME work starting this next fall and winter . I figure by then it will be 5 straight months of regular free squats…time for a change and another variation .

have you introduced bands into ME training yet ?

I use bands for ME all the time, just not for the free squat. The bands will pull you down too quickly and mess up any rebound you have from the hole, and I’ve found that because of this they kind of mess up your groove. I’ve heard the same thing from other lifters: if you’re going to squat with bands, you gotta use a box. Feel free to give them a shot though, you might find it to be a great variation.

I am a huge fan of reverse band squats and band resisted deadlifts.

As far as bringing up the deadlift without deadlifting, good mornings all the way.

[quote]threewhitelights wrote:
I use bands for ME all the time, just not for the free squat. The bands will pull you down too quickly and mess up any rebound you have from the hole, and I’ve found that because of this they kind of mess up your groove. I’ve heard the same thing from other lifters: if you’re going to squat with bands, you gotta use a box. Feel free to give them a shot though, you might find it to be a great variation.

I am a huge fan of reverse band squats and band resisted deadlifts.

As far as bringing up the deadlift without deadlifting, good mornings all the way.[/quote]

alright , I see .

I have started using bands with a box and without a box, but only as speed work so far . even then , I can feel how the bands throw off the movement . only been using very light weights , as I’ve only gone thru 3 cycles . I did notice some hip pain after the first 2 cycles , so I layed off the band work for a few weeks .

good mornings…yeah . thats the most fucked up movement I’ve tried learning so far . I first tried them a long time ago , but quit after a couple weeks . started 'em back up , and forced myself to keep at 'em…doing them as a supplemental/accessory movement after squatting , with light weights only . no idea why this movement pattern was so hard to catch on to…maybe because of all the different ways of doing them . but Im sticking to a certain stance , and lower the bar down to the same height via rack pins , in order to ensure Im doing them the same .

so I’ll stir this around…add in bands for ME work with box squats ; work the weights up with good mornings as supplemental glute/ham work in the 5 rep range .

[quote]marlboroman wrote:

[quote]threewhitelights wrote:
I use bands for ME all the time, just not for the free squat. The bands will pull you down too quickly and mess up any rebound you have from the hole, and I’ve found that because of this they kind of mess up your groove. I’ve heard the same thing from other lifters: if you’re going to squat with bands, you gotta use a box. Feel free to give them a shot though, you might find it to be a great variation.

I am a huge fan of reverse band squats and band resisted deadlifts.

As far as bringing up the deadlift without deadlifting, good mornings all the way.[/quote]

alright , I see .

I have started using bands with a box and without a box, but only as speed work so far . even then , I can feel how the bands throw off the movement . only been using very light weights , as I’ve only gone thru 3 cycles . I did notice some hip pain after the first 2 cycles , so I layed off the band work for a few weeks .

good mornings…yeah . thats the most fucked up movement I’ve tried learning so far . I first tried them a long time ago , but quit after a couple weeks . started 'em back up , and forced myself to keep at 'em…doing them as a supplemental/accessory movement after squatting , with light weights only . no idea why this movement pattern was so hard to catch on to…maybe because of all the different ways of doing them . but Im sticking to a certain stance , and lower the bar down to the same height via rack pins , in order to ensure Im doing them the same .

so I’ll stir this around…add in bands for ME work with box squats ; work the weights up with good mornings as supplemental glute/ham work in the 5 rep range .[/quote]

Use briefs or a loose squat suit, even if you compete raw, to help with the hip pain. Box squats tear shit up.

Good mornings do suck at first. Keep in mind that they suck for a reason, something is weak. As the weight goes up on those, so will your deadlift and squat.

The first time I tried good mornings I barely sqeaked out 3 sets of 10 with 95lbs. 5 years later, I’ve done 400+ for 10 reps and 500 for 5 chain suspended. I’ve noticed a much bigger carryover to the deadlift than the squat but I think they need to be done and there arent very many better exercises for your hips and back.