I think you may have powerlifting hypochondria. How long have you been lifting? What are your numbers like? What’s your weight at and what are you doing to gain?
[quote]louiek wrote:
I think the problem with DE free squats is that a) the form doesn’t hold as well, b) there’s no breakup between eccentric and concentric, and therefore you don’t practice activation of the muscle from a dead position, and c) it doesn’t hit the muscles as well as a box squat.[/quote]
Thing is I’ve seen the opposite effect. My form has improved from doing them because it holds up well. You may be right about the latter two though. Could that not be solved, for example, by doing pause squats or pin squats? At least that way the form is a lot more like how I would squat yet there’s a break up of concentric and eccentric.
[quote]frankjl wrote:
@michael_xyz
I think you may have powerlifting hypochondria. How long have you been lifting? What are your numbers like? What’s your weight at and what are you doing to gain?[/quote]
Not sure what you mean by that.
I’ve been lifting for a little over 2 years. I squat 405, deadlift 440 and bench 240. I weigh a little under 210lbs although I will be cutting somewhat this Summer as I’ve gained a lot of mass but also fat in this 2 year bulk since I started (weighing 130lbs when I started).
Do you mean powerlifting ADD as in I want to change routine every week or something? I just want to tailor it to what works for me. I know I’m asking questions then just saying “no” to all but the truth is that a lot of of them are about how box squats are better when that definitely hasn’t been the case for me. Maybe in a year’s time they may be and I’ll have to change it up - I don’t know. Just wondering if it is really crucial to Westside and maybe if these factors don’t really work great for me then something else is better. I like a lot of the Westside ideas so I don’t want to abandon it for something else but I don’t think all of it is perfect for me.
For the past month I have changed my tempalte to the following:
Mon - DE Upper
Wed - Back and Bis
Fr - ME Upper
Sun - Squat/Pull Day
Upper are exactly Westside with lotsa volume on DE day and heavy 85%+ training on ME Day. I put in the separate Back & Bis day cause by the time I got to them as accessory movements before I could never do them justice. Also, let’s be honest - back can never be strong and I figured it would help both my bench AND my Dead. The Squat/Pull day is off prilepin’s chart, basically going for 3-5RM on the one lift and heavy (1-2) on the other followed by quads, hams, abs work.
It has been great for me (so far), I finally hit 495 dead, my bench has been stable as shit and I feel I can keep my back from rounding better on squat and dead.
I will keep milking this for awhile so just throwing it out there to peeps if they feel they are stagnating.
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
[quote]louiek wrote:
I think the problem with DE free squats is that a) the form doesn’t hold as well, b) there’s no breakup between eccentric and concentric, and therefore you don’t practice activation of the muscle from a dead position, and c) it doesn’t hit the muscles as well as a box squat.[/quote]
Thing is I’ve seen the opposite effect. My form has improved from doing them because it holds up well. You may be right about the latter two though. Could that not be solved, for example, by doing pause squats or pin squats? At least that way the form is a lot more like how I would squat yet there’s a break up of concentric and eccentric.
[/quote]
As far as I know, DE free squats are “bad” and I would never use them. The strength trained with box squatting work with box squats. But Louie is also quoted as saying, “You can make anything dynamic,” so it’s really up to you and what works for you. Just keep in mind it’s against pretty much everyone else who runs Westside.
And really, I wouldn’t rule out the idea that you’re doing them wrong.
That’s the thing - I’m sure I read an article where he writes about Strongmen using Westside and that you can use OHP for dynamic instead. So with that, surely I’m not making such a big change as OHP is to Bench.
It’s just that I haven’t read anything where Louie talks about raw lifters apart from one or two articles more geared towards the bench. It’d be very interesting to ask him about it if that was a possibility.
I’m not saying Westside doesn’t work for raw lifters as quite a few have used it very well. I’m just saying that a lot of the stuff they do is due to them being multi-ply lifters so obviously some changes have to be made.
For sure I could be doing them wrong. It’s hard to really say without a proper coach. I don’t think I’m doing them perfectly but equally don’t think I’m doing them very poorly.
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
That’s the thing - I’m sure I read an article where he writes about Strongmen using Westside and that you can use OHP for dynamic instead. So with that, surely I’m not making such a big change as OHP is to Bench.
It’s just that I haven’t read anything where Louie talks about raw lifters apart from one or two articles more geared towards the bench. It’d be very interesting to ask him about it if that was a possibility.
I’m not saying Westside doesn’t work for raw lifters as quite a few have used it very well. I’m just saying that a lot of the stuff they do is due to them being multi-ply lifters so obviously some changes have to be made.
[/quote]
OHP and bench are way more similar than free squat and box squat. But yeah, the point of DE is speed-strength, so anything can be dynamic. I’ve heard Louie say dynamic effort should be 65/70/75 for raw lifters, but I think that’s assuming they’re using recovery supplements, because that would probably burn me out, and I’m not nearly as strong as any raw lifters that he trains, I’m sure.
Point being, use it and see if it works. Nobody can say “don’t do it” if it’s working. Except STB. Or Louie Simmons. Maybe Dave Tate.
Was this you asking the question? If it wasn’t, it’s a huge fucking coincidence lol
[quote]louiek wrote:
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
That’s the thing - I’m sure I read an article where he writes about Strongmen using Westside and that you can use OHP for dynamic instead. So with that, surely I’m not making such a big change as OHP is to Bench.
It’s just that I haven’t read anything where Louie talks about raw lifters apart from one or two articles more geared towards the bench. It’d be very interesting to ask him about it if that was a possibility.
I’m not saying Westside doesn’t work for raw lifters as quite a few have used it very well. I’m just saying that a lot of the stuff they do is due to them being multi-ply lifters so obviously some changes have to be made.
[/quote]
OHP and bench are way more similar than free squat and box squat. But yeah, the point of DE is speed-strength, so anything can be dynamic. I’ve heard Louie say dynamic effort should be 65/70/75 for raw lifters, but I think that’s assuming they’re using recovery supplements, because that would probably burn me out, and I’m not nearly as strong as any raw lifters that he trains, I’m sure.
Point being, use it and see if it works. Nobody can say “don’t do it” if it’s working. Except STB. Or Louie Simmons. Maybe Dave Tate.
Was this you asking the question? If it wasn’t, it’s a huge fucking coincidence lol
[/quote]
Could that possibly be with less volume or less accommodating resistance for those bench percentages?
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]louiek wrote:
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
That’s the thing - I’m sure I read an article where he writes about Strongmen using Westside and that you can use OHP for dynamic instead. So with that, surely I’m not making such a big change as OHP is to Bench.
It’s just that I haven’t read anything where Louie talks about raw lifters apart from one or two articles more geared towards the bench. It’d be very interesting to ask him about it if that was a possibility.
I’m not saying Westside doesn’t work for raw lifters as quite a few have used it very well. I’m just saying that a lot of the stuff they do is due to them being multi-ply lifters so obviously some changes have to be made.
[/quote]
OHP and bench are way more similar than free squat and box squat. But yeah, the point of DE is speed-strength, so anything can be dynamic. I’ve heard Louie say dynamic effort should be 65/70/75 for raw lifters, but I think that’s assuming they’re using recovery supplements, because that would probably burn me out, and I’m not nearly as strong as any raw lifters that he trains, I’m sure.
Point being, use it and see if it works. Nobody can say “don’t do it” if it’s working. Except STB. Or Louie Simmons. Maybe Dave Tate.
Was this you asking the question? If it wasn’t, it’s a huge fucking coincidence lol
[/quote]
Could that possibly be with less volume or less accommodating resistance for those bench percentages?[/quote]
Can’t find the video now. Here’s an article though that says the same things: The Conjugate Method for Powerlifting: A User's Guide
He also said though that the bar speed should be a certain meters per second, measured by a tendo unit, like this thread has discussed previously. So considering that, percentages mean absolutely nothing, unless you’re talking cycles, and even then, you’d only go up 5% as long as you can keep the bar speed within the same parameters determined. 0.8-1.3 or something, I’m sure you’ve heard it before.
EDIT: Correcting myself by quoting STB: “Keep in mind the speed you are shooting for on the lifts, for speed strength is about .3 to .8 meters per second. This comes out to about 3 seconds a set.”
Ok. I was just thinking that I can maintain speed up to about 70-75% on any movement If I keep the volume checked and give myself enough rest.
I’m thinkin’ ahead a bit to the next cycle . the plan is to introduce bands into the ME days . the debate is whether to add them in to the accumulation block , the intens. block , or both blocks .
if it matters , my current cycle is set up at 3 weeks for each block , with a deload between each . I’d kind of like to keep it this way .
any thoughts ?
In the Accumulation block for squat/deadlift days I feel as though my assistance is a bit wishy-washy because you want to keep it general. Any thoughts on this? For example I’ll do a lot more machine work (leg curls/ext./press), back raises, DB swings but apart from a few others there isn’t much else I can think of doing.
Someone posted a good list of things to do but even then, it feels like it’s not really helping much. Not sure if it’s the case but it’s how I feel about it sometimes when doing them. Maybe my volume is too low on them.
How many sets do you guys do on average? I usually do like 12 sets after the main stuff for squat/deadlift on acc. block.
Bands on ME day
- I plan on using monster minis against the bar (not the future method, I don’t think it would help me). Don’t have any lighter bands than that. Wouldn’t use them on int. block, but that’s because I do a 1RM, a 6RM, and then some assistance, and that burns me the fuck out in 2 weeks, along with all my DE band work.
Assistance
- I pick my weakness, work that, then anything else I give a shit about. Hips are weak now, so I do something ME sumo, then sumo free squat holding DBs or weight plates. After that I’ll do seated GM and after that I’m usually done. My movements vary, but it doesn’t matter to me as long as I’m hitting certain weakness’. Obviously, there are methods of RE, but I don’t really use those methods, and haven’t had to to make gains so far. I’ll do 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps. 6 is too heavy and I don’t grow with 8 reps. Facepulls I’ll do 5x20, though, and I do those all the time.
Here’s some shit that I do for assistance.
Abs
-Hanging leg raise
-Plank variations
-Plank on rings
-Gymnastic shit
-Standing band crunch
Shoulders
-DB OHP
-Wide pushup
Triceps
-Tricep pressdown
-Dips
-Close pushup variations
Upperback
- This should never be a weakness.
- Facepulls (1 arm, rope, bar. pull at different heights)
- Chinups
Back
- Seated GM
- Round back seated GM
Hamstrings
-Natural GHR
-RDL
-1-legged DL
-GM
Hips
-Sumo free squat
-Sumo GM
-Sumo box squat
Lats
-Pullups
-Rows 5x15 (not missing any reps)
Glutes
-Glute bridge (with elevated shoulders)
-“Quadruped Linear Oppositions” (I call them Glute Push. Don’t lift your hand up. Add weight using machine if necessary)
Since you have weak shoulders, you should try OHP for a 1-3RM, then doing 1-armed OHP, then dips/pushups.
Would you guys recommend to pick about 4-5 exercises for Max Effort and use only them for quite a while and see how it goes? I’ve done some more reading and a recurrent theme is that it is very easy to get swept away by boards and chains and bands and different type of bars and soon enough you find yourself not having any idea of your progress on straight weight. Would you guys agree?
Also, I was wondering about different types of bars. I’m joining a gym which has almost all the different types. However, I have never used anything else but a normal Olympic bar and I’m not sure what use the others have. By that I mean like why would you use a SSB instead of a Buffalo - for a certain weakness or strength or what? That kind of thing is what I’m wondering about.
Guys, I have noticed recently that my biggest weakness on the deadlift is my grip, as last week I just barely lifted 180kgs and couldn’t hold the lockout position for more than half a second or so. I’d like to read about any suggestion to bring up grip strength.
For exercises I’m going to add farmer’s walks with DBs, plate pinches, use crushing devices ; what other exercises would be effective? My problem is hand strength/fingers strength, not so much forearm strength. Also, how often should I train my grip? So far it’s been on ME lower and DE lower days, so twice a week, which doesn’t seem to be enough : maybe 4 times a week would be better.
Also, I definitely need to find a place to buy some chalk…! Any website where shipping costs for Europe are reasonable?
Thanks in advance.
[quote]Kraky wrote:
Guys, I have noticed recently that my biggest weakness on the deadlift is my grip, as last week I just barely lifted 180kgs and couldn’t hold the lockout position for more than half a second or so. I’d like to read about any suggestion to bring up grip strength.
For exercises I’m going to add farmer’s walks with DBs, plate pinches, use crushing devices ; what other exercises would be effective? My problem is hand strength/fingers strength, not so much forearm strength. Also, how often should I train my grip? So far it’s been on ME lower and DE lower days, so twice a week, which doesn’t seem to be enough : maybe 4 times a week would be better.
Also, I definitely need to find a place to buy some chalk…! Any website where shipping costs for Europe are reasonable?
Thanks in advance.[/quote]
If you start going 4x a week you’ll probably overtrain yourself very quickly. I’d do this:
ME day (if deadlifting): no forearm work
ME day (if not deadlifting): 2-3 sets of whatever forearm work you want. farmers walk, frame hold, car deadlift, hand grippers, plate pinch for 30-45sec.
DE day: 2xALAP 1-armed bodyweight hold on pullup bar
I need to get more involved in here. I promise to be more helpful after Nationals this weekend. I will write up a tentative outline for my training leading up to raw nats or whatever the hell I am doing next. I think putting down an actual raw training plan using Westside will help answer about 99% of the questions in here.
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Would you guys recommend to pick about 4-5 exercises for Max Effort and use only them for quite a while and see how it goes? I’ve done some more reading and a recurrent theme is that it is very easy to get swept away by boards and chains and bands and different type of bars and soon enough you find yourself not having any idea of your progress on straight weight. Would you guys agree?
Also, I was wondering about different types of bars. I’m joining a gym which has almost all the different types. However, I have never used anything else but a normal Olympic bar and I’m not sure what use the others have. By that I mean like why would you use a SSB instead of a Buffalo - for a certain weakness or strength or what? That kind of thing is what I’m wondering about.[/quote]
thats pretty much what Im doing . last cycle I lined up 5 ME movements ( no bands/chains ; straight bar ) , ended up repeating a couple lifts over the 8 weeks of accu. and intensification .upon test day I hit bench and squat PR’s (didnt test DL ) .
at 48 years old , a 30 lb squat PR feels fuckin’ sweet ; so I stuck with the same line-up , and added 1 movement per ME line-up . both new movements are pin-variations …something I felt carried over quite well the cycle before . this brings the line-up to 6 movements…to be used over 3 weeks accu and 3 weeks intens .
if I hit the same PRs after this cycle , damn straight I’ll be using the same movements for the next cycle…except I’ll be adding bands in during the accu block ( thanks for the response Louie ).the bands are being used as an added training stimulus…thats it . probably be used for that cycle , and then back to straight weight ; unless of course I hit bigger PRs , then theirs no tellin’ ; but thats too far out to predict right now . I think the most important part is to come up with a plan and stick to it ; then make adjustments based on results .
the point of ME day is to strain…hard . but to strain with movements that carry over is better than straining with useless movements . I guess the trick is to weed out the useless . the guys who use all the options ( boards, bands, chains, bars ) have been at this a long time , so it probably becomes more necessary at that point ; but it’s not necessary for where I’m at . that I know for sure .
I just threw out my 2 cents…thats all it is . the others who hover around here are further along then me ,so listen to what they say over what I have to say .
Thanks and STB that sounds awesome!
What about DE Bench? If you bench sub-315 should you just stick to straight weight for speed bench or is throwing a band (small resistance) good just to get you to push/accelerate a bit more?
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Would you guys recommend to pick about 4-5 exercises for Max Effort and use only them for quite a while and see how it goes? I’ve done some more reading and a recurrent theme is that it is very easy to get swept away by boards and chains and bands and different type of bars and soon enough you find yourself not having any idea of your progress on straight weight. Would you guys agree?
[/quote]
Bands, chains, boards, funny bars, pin pulls, etc, etc all have their place in training, even for a raw lifter. The ME movements should reflect your weaknesses in the competition lifts. You are teaching your body to strain through a weak point, as to make it “stronger”. That’s why generally an increase in your ME lifts should translate into an increase in the competition lift.
The key is that you have to be honest with yourself. The only thing that matters is what you do in competition. There are guys at my gym that can pull over 800 from pin 5 and deadlift less than 600 from the floor. How silly is that? I’ve heard these called “ego lifts”. These people would be much better served by using lower pins or pulling from a deficit. Often times the thing you want to do the least, is the thing you NEED to do the most. You hear this all the time from top lifters, but many people don’t hear it.
I could probably list dozens of examples out of my own training but I’ll spare you the details.
Picking 4-5 ME lifts is a great start. As you get stronger, your weak points will change at which point you might need to re-evalute your ME movements.
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Thanks and STB that sounds awesome!
What about DE Bench? If you bench sub-315 should you just stick to straight weight for speed bench or is throwing a band (small resistance) good just to get you to push/accelerate a bit more?[/quote]
I’m using straight weight during accu block…bands during intens block ; 50/55/60% bar weight , 25% bands. pretty sure thats about what Storm recommends also. it’s what I ran last cycle , so I stuck to it based on progress/PR .