The thing is - I don’t know what my weaknesses are and I think it’s hard to tell at a lower level.
Like I know my OHP is weak relatively. But then again STB got his OHP up very high and he didn’t see much from it. I’m not saying that’s the same for me but I don’t know if I can suddenly say my shoulders are weak just because my OHP is poor. It may have no carryover.
Frank
you mention the pin pulls . thats kinda funny , because thats the one lift that I question for ME lower . I perform 4 squat/GM variations , and 2 DL variations in a 6 week cycle . the pin pull is always on the block for gettin bumped , but I always keep it just for the fact that it torches my back so well .
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
The thing is - I don’t know what my weaknesses are and I think it’s hard to tell at a lower level.
Like I know my OHP is weak relatively. But then again STB got his OHP up very high and he didn’t see much from it. I’m not saying that’s the same for me but I don’t know if I can suddenly say my shoulders are weak just because my OHP is poor. It may have no carryover.[/quote]
what you suck at PROBABLY IS your weakness .
do you like front squats ? no ? do you suck at front squats ? yes ?
boom…there’s a weakness
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
The thing is - I don’t know what my weaknesses are and I think it’s hard to tell at a lower level.
Like I know my OHP is weak relatively. But then again STB got his OHP up very high and he didn’t see much from it. I’m not saying that’s the same for me but I don’t know if I can suddenly say my shoulders are weak just because my OHP is poor. It may have no carryover.[/quote]
Is OHP a competition lift? I saw no carry over between ohp and my bench but I still do it every now and then just to work my shoulders. Others say it helps them a lot. If you want advice, post a video of a near 1rm attempt
EDIT:
Finding your weaknesses is easy. Where does the bar stop when you fail on the bench press? My guess is that you’re just like everybody else and the bar stops 2-4 inches off the chest. I’m also willing to bet that your form sucks (no offense). This isn’t bodybuilding, so don’t think of weaknesses as muscle groups but instead a part of the competition lift.
Good ME movements for this would be Floor Press, 1 or 2 board presses, Pause Presses and Incline Presses. Don’t be afraid to get some volume in on these and go for a 5lb PR if you’re feeling good that day. As a supplementary movement, you can add in overhead press, illegal wide bench presses, close grip bench presses and DB presses. Every now and then I would throw in a reverse band or Sling Shot for a couple heavy reps just to get the feel of heavy weight in your hands.
Work your triceps, lats and delts hard.
???
PROFIT
[quote]marlboroman wrote:
Frank
you mention the pin pulls . thats kinda funny , because thats the one lift that I question for ME lower . I perform 4 squat/GM variations , and 2 DL variations in a 6 week cycle . the pin pull is always on the block for gettin bumped , but I always keep it just for the fact that it torches my back so well .[/quote]
I probably over simplified that rant a little bit. There’s definitely value in “over-loading” a movement, or reducing ROM to get your body used to handling more weight on ME day. Just don’t be a dumbass about it.
I still pull off pins every now and again, although now I prefer more full range movements. I’ll use bands / reverse bands for the overload. I have PR’s set for pins 1, 2 and 3. And I think I’m the only one whose pin pull is LESS THAN their floor deadlift.
I’m a bit sceptical of sticking point training for a raw lifter. As I wrote somewhere else, I find it funny when someone says their sticking point is 2-4 inches above chest or just a few inches above the hole in the squat. That’s for 99.9% of people! You very, very rarely are gonna see a raw lifter miss at lockout in the bench or at lockout in the squat. Deadlift is a little different though and I accept that probably has more use for sticking point training.
Another factor is that it’s usually about form and acceleration. For example, I like the idea of board pressing but the basic idea of how they work I don’t like. If you keep missing 5" above chest you put a board to get you to 5" from chest and the idea is that it’ll help that bit. But what I think is that it’s more to do with poor acceleration BEFORE 5". So in fact from 0-5" is where the problem lies because you have a weakness/poor acceleration and that leads you to fail 5" above your chest. The issue with that is then where is the weakness? Because it’s anywhere BEFORE where you fail.
Thanks for the post though. I know for sure that my incline also sucks balls too (relatively). I think I will try add that in as an ME movement but probably for 3-5RM and not do it for a single. I’m just not sure I can talk about weaknesses though because at this level I find it hard to really find any strengths. There’s nothing very dominant which is clearly a strength and thus doesn’t need to be worked as hard.
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
I’m a bit sceptical of sticking point training for a raw lifter.
[/quote]
Why would a sticking point be different for a raw lifter vs. a geared lifter? Either sticking points exist (which they do) or they don’t.
Sticking point: A point at which an obstacle (weak position) arises in progress (moving a bar) toward a goal (lockout).
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Another factor is that it’s usually about form and acceleration. For example, I like the idea of board pressing but the basic idea of how they work I don’t like. If you keep missing 5" above chest you put a board to get you to 5" from chest and the idea is that it’ll help that bit. But what I think is that it’s more to do with poor acceleration BEFORE 5". So in fact from 0-5" is where the problem lies because you have a weakness/poor acceleration and that leads you to fail 5" above your chest. The issue with that is then where is the weakness? Because it’s anywhere BEFORE where you fail.
[/quote]
To strengthen the weak position, you perform a movement that teaches the weak link to advance. Once the weak link has been made stronger, it then applies that new strength to all other movement.
There’s also a distinction to be made about explosive lifters vs. strong lifters, but Dave Tate says it better than I do:
"Before I explain the much-confused Dynamic Effort (DE), I need to make a point about strong lifters versus fast lifters.
Strong lifters move 800 pounds as fast as they move 315 pounds. They’re like human cranes. Explosive lifters, on the other hand, push the bar up like a rocket, but they don’t have the same limit-strength potential.
Most lifters are usually predominantly one or the other." - (Tate, http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/iron_evolution_phase_6 , pg. 2)
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Like I know my OHP is weak relatively. But then again STB got his OHP up very high and he didn’t see much from it. I’m not saying that’s the same for me but I don’t know if I can suddenly say my shoulders are weak just because my OHP is poor. It may have no carryover.[/quote]
Right now, you have a weak OHP, a “relatively ball sucking” incline press, you bench press with a close grip, and you recently said this:
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
My shoulder strength is a weakness for sure… I tried doing incline bench (w/ barbell) but it hurt my shoulders a lot and just didn’t feel nice so I haven’t done it in a long time.[/quote]
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Right now my ME exercises are close-grips, pause bench, 1-2 board, floor press and any variety of those mixed in. Then on one day I go heavy on OHP and another I do higher rep work on dumbbells - all angles.
[/quote]
Sounds like you have weak, unhealthy shoulders and your training is focused around close pressing. If you’re not training your shoulders, and you’re not making progress, wouldn’t it make sense to train your shoulders?
Point is, you haven’t fucking tried strengthening your shoulders yet, so you can’t say whether it does or doesn’t carryover.
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
I’m a bit sceptical of sticking point training for a raw lifter. As I wrote somewhere else, I find it funny when someone says their sticking point is 2-4 inches above chest or just a few inches above the hole in the squat. That’s for 99.9% of people! You very, very rarely are gonna see a raw lifter miss at lockout in the bench or at lockout in the squat. Deadlift is a little different though and I accept that probably has more use for sticking point training.
[/quote]
A couple of things bother me here:
There is not some magical divide between the training of geared lifters and raw lifters. There are differences in the training, but the concepts are the exact same.
You introduced the term “sticking point training” – I did not. The purpose behind those ME movements is to prevent adaptation, and also a way to gauge your competition bench. Research has shown that after 3 weeks, your body adapts to an exercise and performance decreases. If this weren’t the case, you wouldn’t have to cycle ME exercises you could just bench up to a 1rm every week and get stronger.
Simply put – if your your floor press goes up, your bench will probably go up. This is the basis of the conjugate method. It doesn’t matter if you’re skeptical – the proof is in the pudding. How many strong athletes has this method of strength training produced?
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Thanks for the post though. I know for sure that my incline also sucks balls too (relatively). I think I will try add that in as an ME movement but probably for 3-5RM and not do it for a single. I’m just not sure I can talk about weaknesses though because at this level I find it hard to really find any strengths. There’s nothing very dominant which is clearly a strength and thus doesn’t need to be worked as hard.
[/quote]
At least you’re being honest with yourself here.
Good news for me! I found something I suck at. For my DE day, I did standing pin presses from forehead height and I only got 5 reps. Compared to 7 from the clavicles (front squat position except with elbows under instead of out). FTR, I get stuck at the 3-4 in off my chest mark.
What I mean to emphasise more is the idea that 99% of lifters will have a sticking point 2-4" off their chest or there about. Is that now to say 99% of lifters all have the same weaknesses?
I’m not sceptical of the results it has produced but I’m just rather curious and don’t want to blindly accept everything (if you understand something you’ll do better than just following it without understanding it).
It’s just that I’m not sure 99% of lifters all have the same weakness to fail at that height in the bench press. But then how do you work out the reason and why does it occur. For example one may have great shoulder strength and another great tricep strength yet they fail in the same place.
Right now I am working my shoulders fairly hard with heavy OHP and DB presses but of course this’ll take time so we’ll see how that works out.
Edit: On another note, as STB said you want to keep chains and bands on the low side if you train raw. What is considered on the low side for chains and bands though? A couple of chains per side max or…?
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
What I mean to emphasise more is the idea that 99% of lifters will have a sticking point 2-4" off their chest or there about. Is that now to say 99% of lifters all have the same weaknesses?
I’m not sceptical of the results it has produced but I’m just rather curious and don’t want to blindly accept everything (if you understand something you’ll do better than just following it without understanding it).
It’s just that I’m not sure 99% of lifters all have the same weakness to fail at that height in the bench press. But then how do you work out the reason and why does it occur. For example one may have great shoulder strength and another great tricep strength yet they fail in the same place.
[/quote]
There are an infinite number of variables, including technique, leverages, strength, explosiveness, mindset, etc., etc.
Take the idea of “sticking point training” and remove it from your brain. The ME lifts are lifts specific to competition lifts, however different. You pick lifts specific to the competition lift, but yet different, because:
The ME lifts I specified are specific to the raw competition bench press, in that they have close to the same range of motion and follow a similar strength curve. You’ll notice that most raw lifters don’t use a reverse band decline bench off a 4 board for an ME movement. Why? Because it’s not specific to the flat bench.
Is it really so hard to believe that, generally speaking, an increase in your floor press will result in an increase in your flat bench?
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Right now I am working my shoulders fairly hard with heavy OHP and DB presses but of course this’ll take time so we’ll see how that works out.
Edit: On another note, as STB said you want to keep chains and bands on the low side if you train raw. What is considered on the low side for chains and bands though? A couple of chains per side max or…?[/quote]
I’ll let STB handle this one, but I’d say it’s relative to your strength.
No I perfectly well understand that. It’s more that I have read a lot of talk about people using 2-board because they fail at the 2-board height, say, and that is why they do that movement. Maybe I understood things wrong.
On another note, I’m trying to be a bit more strict and simple with training and come up with a 12 week cycle as I have 12 weeks access at the very least to a great gym with a variety of equipment. I was thinking about ME movements and this is what I have (I am a raw lifter):
Bench: 1-board, 2-board, floor press, incline (if my shoulders let me), pause bench, maybe chain bench
Squat: Pause squat, box squat (parallel/just below), chain squat, SSB squat
Deadlift: Deadlift from blocks (2 heights), chain deadlift, band deadlift, maybe deficit pulls
Does this look okay?
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
No I perfectly well understand that. It’s more that I have read a lot of talk about people using 2-board because they fail at the 2-board height, say, and that is why they do that movement. Maybe I understood things wrong.
On another note, I’m trying to be a bit more strict and simple with training and come up with a 12 week cycle as I have 12 weeks access at the very least to a great gym with a variety of equipment. I was thinking about ME movements and this is what I have (I am a raw lifter):
Bench: 1-board, 2-board, floor press, incline (if my shoulders let me), pause bench, maybe chain bench
Squat: Pause squat, box squat (parallel/just below), chain squat, SSB squat
Deadlift: Deadlift from blocks (2 heights), chain deadlift, band deadlift, maybe deficit pulls
Does this look okay?[/quote]
Why do rack pulls and deficit pulls? You only need one.
I think it was STB that said there was no “need” for pausing in training if you’re doing speed work.
Fix your shoulder so you can press with it. Then, work with wider grips on your bench work and/or overhead press to a max.
[quote]louiek wrote:
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
No I perfectly well understand that. It’s more that I have read a lot of talk about people using 2-board because they fail at the 2-board height, say, and that is why they do that movement. Maybe I understood things wrong.
On another note, I’m trying to be a bit more strict and simple with training and come up with a 12 week cycle as I have 12 weeks access at the very least to a great gym with a variety of equipment. I was thinking about ME movements and this is what I have (I am a raw lifter):
Bench: 1-board, 2-board, floor press, incline (if my shoulders let me), pause bench, maybe chain bench
Squat: Pause squat, box squat (parallel/just below), chain squat, SSB squat
Deadlift: Deadlift from blocks (2 heights), chain deadlift, band deadlift, maybe deficit pulls
Does this look okay?[/quote]
Why do rack pulls and deficit pulls? You only need one.
I think it was STB that said there was no “need” for pausing in training if you’re doing speed work.
Fix your shoulder so you can press with it. Then, work with wider grips on your bench work and/or overhead press to a max.[/quote]
STB said that he didn’t like pauses for ME and speed work but did it for supplementary when training for raw meets.
My weakness is locking out which is why majority are to help that more but I thought rarely it’d be good to do some more ROM.
Shoulder is fine. Just whenever I had done inclines in the past it has hurt them. Doing heavy OHP fine though and no shoulder issues with that.
I like pauses to be honest. They are very, very tough but also seem beneficial even on squat. For bench press I think it’s more obvious how they are helpful.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]louiek wrote:
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
No I perfectly well understand that. It’s more that I have read a lot of talk about people using 2-board because they fail at the 2-board height, say, and that is why they do that movement. Maybe I understood things wrong.
On another note, I’m trying to be a bit more strict and simple with training and come up with a 12 week cycle as I have 12 weeks access at the very least to a great gym with a variety of equipment. I was thinking about ME movements and this is what I have (I am a raw lifter):
Bench: 1-board, 2-board, floor press, incline (if my shoulders let me), pause bench, maybe chain bench
Squat: Pause squat, box squat (parallel/just below), chain squat, SSB squat
Deadlift: Deadlift from blocks (2 heights), chain deadlift, band deadlift, maybe deficit pulls
Does this look okay?[/quote]
Why do rack pulls and deficit pulls? You only need one.
I think it was STB that said there was no “need” for pausing in training if you’re doing speed work.
Fix your shoulder so you can press with it. Then, work with wider grips on your bench work and/or overhead press to a max.[/quote]
STB said that he didn’t like pauses for ME and speed work but did it for supplementary when training for raw meets.
[/quote]
[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
You don’t need to pause in training if you do Dynamic Benching correctly. Speed benching develops your stretch reflex and other mechanisms that help store and utilize elastic energy. When trained, the stretch reflex can still be 100% for 4-6 seconds. Unless you get a dickhead judge, your pause won’t be 4-6 seconds in a meet. So, you don’t need to pause for your speed benching. If you would like to practice when I meet gets closer, I would suggest doing some close grip pause benches or some close grip pause board presses for assistance work, after DE benching. With the meet getting closer, RE work should start getting more intense and more ‘competition specific.’
[/quote]
Which goes against what Michael is doing. Not saying don’t do it, just reminding him what STB had to say on the matter. I like pause movements for my 6RM on int. block.
[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
No I perfectly well understand that. It’s more that I have read a lot of talk about people using 2-board because they fail at the 2-board height, say, and that is why they do that movement. Maybe I understood things wrong.
[/quote]
In that case, there are a variety of training techniques that I would employ to beat that sticking point. 2 board may or may not be the best ME exercise – but I digress.
Despite my tirade earlier – a lot of people believe in sticking point training, me included. Since I don’t have any credibility, I’ll reference a few articles that Dave Tate wrote that alluded to this concept.
http://articles.elitefts.com/features/iron-brothers/under-the-bar-looking-for-more-time/
http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/3-things-you-better-know-if-you-want-stronger-triceps/
“You can either ‘train’ the lifts or ‘build’ the lifts. I’m NOT a fan of training the lift because this is usually just going through the motions and doesn’t take into account other factors that can lead to bigger lifts. I’m more a fan of building the lift by looking for those items that correlate to bigger lifts and focus on making those better. This also allows for one to bring up weaknesses while taking advantages of strengths. This is done in powerlifting by using special exercises that you know correlate and drive the main lifts. For example, my floor press was always 90 percent of my best bench. I spent my time building the floor press with different waves, supplemental movements and accessories that focused on prehab, rehab and conditioning.”
If your sticking point is right off the chest, your raw bench press is only going to be as strong as your ability to break the sticking point off the chest. It’s just that simple. The floor press puts you in a very dis-advantageous position from the start. You don’t have any leg drive and it takes a lot of the speed off the chest away. Assuming you’re weak off the chest, if you can hit a 300lb floor press it would stand to reason that your flat bench should AT LEAST be 300 pounds. That being said, wouldn’t it also be logical that a 10lb PR in floor press would amount to around a 10lb PR in your flat bench (all things being equal)?
In reality, the max effort floor press itself won’t build your bench. It’s the dynamic effort, repeated effort, supplementary and accessory work that build it. The max effort floor press teaches you to strain under different leverages and also gives you feedback about how your training is going. I should say this with a caveat, that this is true for more advanced lifters. For people just starting this kind of training, they’ll likely be able to add to their ME lifts quickly just because their bodies still aren’t efficient at the ME lifts. This last piece is only my experience, it would be interesting to see what others have to say.
I don’t disagree it will help - as I said - I’m just maybe not so sold on some reasons that are provided for it being useful. Sometimes sounds a bit over-simplified. Anyway.
[quote]frankjl wrote:
[quote]marlboroman wrote:
Frank
you mention the pin pulls . thats kinda funny , because thats the one lift that I question for ME lower . I perform 4 squat/GM variations , and 2 DL variations in a 6 week cycle . the pin pull is always on the block for gettin bumped , but I always keep it just for the fact that it torches my back so well .[/quote]
I probably over simplified that rant a little bit. There’s definitely value in “over-loading” a movement, or reducing ROM to get your body used to handling more weight on ME day. Just don’t be a dumbass about it.
I still pull off pins every now and again, although now I prefer more full range movements. I’ll use bands / reverse bands for the overload. I have PR’s set for pins 1, 2 and 3. And I think I’m the only one whose pin pull is LESS THAN their floor deadlift.[/quote]
Oh no you arent, I thought I was the only one!! My pin pulls and pin presses are both less than their full-range counterparts. Im not a big fan of pin pulls for my main movement, but I will do them as secopndary movements, because, as stated above, they fry the shit out of my back
so let me ask this…
would a pin pull at the first pin from floor be harder or easier than a pin pull from the third position ?
(I’ve never gone lower than the #3 , and I cant seem to wrap my head around that one)
and one more…
do yous guys use a regular deadlift grip when doing pin pulls ? or double overhand with straps ?