Bear with me guys and gals while I set the stage for training the same muscle group twice a day to get bigger gains in strength faster than once a day.
The scientific literature has long shown that endurance athletes (I know I know, who cares about endurance athletes) can achieve greater gains in endurance adaptations (e.g. increased mitochondria, aerobic enzymes, etc) by training when fatigued/low glycogen stores. Elite long distance runners since the 70’s have been doing 2-a-days to be able to get enough mileage in a day, but also to take advantage of having at least one session when their body had not fully recovered from the previous training session. Yes, you also need to include high quality training sessions when you are fully recovered for high intensity and/or high volume sessions. But there is a solid place for endurance athletes to have low energy training sessions in their training programs.
What got me thinking about this sort of training for strength and power athletes is I just finished reading an article published just this month which looked at doing leg extensions for an hour (more endurance than strength training) where one leg had low energy (glycogen) and the other had high glycogen. The low energy leg was trained twice every other day and the he high glycogen leg did knee extensions once every day. So each leg was trained twice in a 2 day cycle. This was repeated for 10 weeks.
Their results showed identical increases in maximum workload for high and low energy legs, but time to exhaustion (endurance capacity) was greater in the low leg. They also measured an enzyme which is key to endurance performance and that increased more in the Low leg.
So what about strength and power athletes doing the same thing? Strength athletes have used two-a-days when incorporating both strength training sessions and aerobic sessions to reduce body fat. Or, strength and aerobic training in the same session. The research in these instances show that endurance training interferes with and reduces the strength training adaptations more so than the extent to which strength training reduces the endurance adaptatinos. Solution, do your strength training session before your aerobic session each day.
I know this has taken a while but, the literature is unclear about whether strength training the same muscle group twice in a single day results in greater strength gains than training once a day.
Has anyone ever done this? If so what sort of gains did you get in strength and muscle gains?
I went from a 135lb front squat to 255 in a matter of weeks. (partly just cause I’m front squatting more often I believe)
My bench press is up 10-15lbs
My clean & push press equals my front squat.
My jerk is a lil’ higher than even those.
I can do hanging pikes with 10lb dumbbells now (touching the bar!)
I played a pickup game of basketball one weekend after doing my ‘tabata’ workout. It didn’t feel like SHIT.
And now I can damn near dunk so my vertical went up a LOT.
Weight wise… I haven’t noticed that much of a gain. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to eat/sleep too much between working out and finals and shit. I suspect by how hard and strong I feel that you could gain a LOT.
My back does look a lot stronger, and I’ve gotten compliments on having a bullneck now… so its good shit.
I think I’ve come up with an improved version… if it’s frickin survivable then I’ll let you guys know about it.
I’ve mangaged this schedule for 3wks without surge, lack of sleep, just 66g of protien b4 workout, 100gm of protien after, zinc, magnesium, plenty of vitamin C,
and being 18yrs old.
Training Day 1:
Morning Session:
Dead-Stop Front Squats (54321)
Power Clean(3cleans) and Press(8) w. 5 bends (3s of 8r)
Power Curls (3s of 8r)
Side Bends (3s of 10r)
Evening Session:
Bench Press (55)
Conventional Dead lift (55)
Bent Over Row (55)
A2G Back Squat (55)
Lying Pike (5s of 3r)
Training Day 2:
Morning Session:
Power Cleans(3cleans) and Front Squat (8squats) (3 sets)
OH Squat (3s of 8r)
Box Squat Jump (3s of 3r)
Hanging Pike (6s of 5r)
Evening Session:
TABATA WORKOUT
-Thruster, Front Squat, Burpees, Jumping Jacks
Hanging Oblique Side Crunch (3s of 12r)
Training Day 3:
Morning Session:
Dead-Stop Front Squat (10warmup, 6 singles)
Snatch Pull (3s of 3r)
One Arm Snatch (3s of 5r)
Planks (120 seconds total)
Xen Nova that is awesome! Sounds like you got some big gains man. Great to hear from someones personal experiences, and I appreciate your program outline. I’m going to give it a shot.
Right now I alternate hard and easy days. From your experience, or anyone else’s, what do you reckon about keeping that routine (so both sessions each day are hard/easy) or should I focus on one session being hard and the other easy in a single day?
Compared to previous training what sort of total volume did you have in a single day - was it similar to what you were doing before in a single session?
I see this sort of concept of training as similar to the idea of prefatigue sets in body building. The theory, I think, is that by fatiguing the muscle you force the recruitment of more motor units, or simply , you need to use more muscle fibers to lift the same mass because some of the fibers aren’t capable of contracting as hard due to neural or muscular fatigue.
My thought, based on my grasp of the scientific literature, is that in the first 4-6 weeks of training the majority of the strength gains you see are due to adaptations at the neural level. The nerves to the muscles being used “learn” to fire with better coordination and you actually end up using less of your muscle fibers to lift a given weight partly because you get greater contraction of those fibers but also because you get less firing/contraction of the antagonist muscles which were acting as stabilizers.
This is the basis I use for changing my training program every 4-6 weeks. I have found it pretty much prevents plateau in gains (theopretically through continued neural stress and stimulation). If I didn’t have to go to school and study for exams I’d be a friggin’ OX!!!
So what do you think about doing 2-a-days as a specific cycle in your training program, say for 4-6 weeks, then back to 1-a-days? Do you think your body could handle it for longer?
And like I said, should some sessions be volume based, intensity based, or just go balls out both sessions every day?
This sounds like the type of stuff that Pavel advocates with his “Grease the Groove” method. And it sounds like you’re getting the desired results - increased strength without increased mass, which certain athletes look for - martial artists, soldiers etc.
Hey, Xen Nova, what time lapse do you have between workouts? I do 2 a days 3 days a week. I do pullups in the morning and chins at lunch. These are the only exercises that get duplicated between the 2 workouts. I got great results. I went from doing 5-7 chins/pullups to hitting 20s wednesday and friday. All this in about 3 months. Keep in mind that I am 49. I was thinking about incorporating this type of workout for legs after the first of the year. What do you think?
[quote]Bad John wrote:
Hey, Xen Nova, what time lapse do you have between workouts? I do 2 a days 3 days a week. I do pullups in the morning and chins at lunch. These are the only exercises that get duplicated between the 2 workouts. I got great results. I went from doing 5-7 chins/pullups to hitting 20s wednesday and friday. All this in about 3 months. Keep in mind that I am 49. I was thinking about incorporating this type of workout for legs after the first of the year. What do you think?[/quote]
Bad John,
I have about 12 hrs between training sessions. I wake up at 6, eat a lot, then train at 8, eat a LOT of carbs and protien, then move on with the rest of my day. 8pm, I train again.
Eat a ton… take some zinc and magnesium and knock out (unless I have to study or something).
You can train legs that way, but you have to be careful with your protocal cause it’s such a large muscle group. I’ll address that in another reply.
I believe that you can keep that sort of schedule when training 2x a day. But of course that leads to the question of what do you mean by easy?
For example, I feel HORRIBLY taxed and just beat up after doing high rep work (above 10-12 reps), but I feel fresh as a new diaper on a recently pampered and powdered baby’s ass when I do singles.
My CNS is wired weird.
Your best bet when training two times a day is to train two different protocals. ( Chad Waterbury Style )
So for example if you train maximal strength in the morning, train endurance strength in the evening. Or Explosive strength in the morning, hypertrophy work in the evening.
Do your own research and address your training schedule/protocal it to your own needs. A MAJOR concern is to try not to throw too much into every day. Really you should just be doing 2-3 exercises at the most.
Stick to compound movements. Or for example, compound movments in the morning, and auxillary work in the evening.
DISCLAIMER BEGINS*
Compared to previous training, I was only in the weight room 3-4 days out of the week. But I would run in the morning, go to wrestling(3x a week) in the evening, and boxing (3x a week on alternating days). My only REAL off day was sunday. And even then I would train certain attributes at home if I had spare time.
Like I said b4, my CNS is weird. And my work capacity is pretty nuts.
So my schedule per say may NOT be the best idea for you. It is almost like doing two schedules at once.
Not good for everyone. Especially the Tabata Workout (Thrusters, One Minute Rest, Front Squats, 1min rest, weighted burpees, 1min rest, jumping jacks) That made a fairly athletic friend of mine puke 8x… And he didn’t eat b4, he was puking water and stomach acid.
And he only trained once a day. Again. Don’t just copy my schedule. I tailor fitted my protocal for what I could handle, and for what I need to work on.
PM Me and I’ll help you make a schedule if you’d like.
***** DISCLAIMER DONE*******
The best bet is to use two exercises you would like to work on.
Session1:
Push Lower Body
Push Upper Body
Session 2:
Pull Lower Body
Pull Upper Body
Or
Session 1:
Combo Movement
Accessory movement
Session 2:
Combo Movement
Accessory movement
It can be Squat and Bench. Or Power Clean and Jerk.
OR! It could be pushups and free squats… to mix in a bit of what kind of protocal you would use.
It could be…
Sesh 1:
One arm Pushup (max strength)
Pistol (max strength)
You can do that. Would add a definite shock to your body in between your cycle.
Personally I wouldn’t train it beyond 3wks. Take a week to get some super-compensation. Practice some skill work. Date your wife again, teach your son to fish… Or in my case, do some silly traditional martial art stuff, take time off to reset your mind and restructure what you’d like to accomplish. (Max strength emphasis for instance)
And by time off I mean 3-4 days. Have a few feeder workouts to get you back in the groove. Then hit up another cycle.
Your body can handle whatever you throw at it. It will adapt specifically to any intense demand that you put on it. (S.A.I.D Principle (specific adaptation to intense demand)
BUT it has to be a slow gradual progression. Don’t kill yourself. Cause believe me, jumping into it too fast will make you feel like you died(or at least wish you did) the next day (I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE).
Personally, I’ve had multiple training sessions for so long, that if I hit the weights one time a day and don’t do anything else I feel like i’m lacking something!
My Uncle who is a contractor now, started out like most as a low level construction worker. He lifted 3 days a week using the big three (Power Clean, Bench, Squat). In addition to working 6 days a week lifting odd objects and shoveling and whatever else construction projects required for approx 8hrs a day.
His body just adapted to working out in addition to that.
If your body can adapt to that! (pretty much the equivalent of strong man training to myself) Then twice a day in the gym, measured correctly is easy.
I train 2x a day in the weight room cause I’m not doing any other training right now. The moment I start boxing, and wrestling, and doing submissions, and teaching or whatever again- I’m definitely hitting the gym 1x a day … hell… maybe only 2x a week.
Again, specialize… For instance when I get back to the fight game I’m going to need to work mainly on technique. I can put strength and weight gain on the back burner and just keep it on maintenance. 2x a week might just be adequate.
If I get injured for instance, and I can’t roll as often. You better believe that I’m going to be spending that time westsiding it up and Olifting and getting stronger than anyone out there.
Think I answered this. It’s completely up to you and YOUR goals… I like go go balls out both sessions…But in my experience, what you do outside of the gym should be limited on your recovery days no matter what method you chose. I do however have to ride my bike to class, to work, to the gym. I have to walk to the store, I play pick up games of basketball every now and then (though I’m not going to play 8 games in a row…get SOME rest), and throw the football around with the girls that live by me and like topretend that they’re athletic.
Training is my lifestyle, these other things- work and all of that are just add-ons. But they’re neccessary evils. (Oh yes girls can be EVIL)… So I do them cause I have to and admittingly they’re fun
If the hot girl from the apartment across from mine asks me if I want to go for a 5k run. I will politely decline, but offer to RUN her a hot bath and RUN my hands up and down her body to massage those sore muscles and ensure that she doesn’t have any lactic acid buildup… wink
oh yes those shiatsu classes WILL come in handy.
Thats not the point though… ok,actually, yes it is… Anyway…
Avoid OBVIOUSLY tiring shit, but depending whether your a bodybuilder (or you REALLY need to get big fast), then cutting out extracirricular athletic activities doesn’t do anything except make you all show and no go. If you cant use your muscle its got no point. Besides, consider it GPP
I’d rather gain 5lbs of muscle and be 2x as strong, then 20lbs of muscle and have yet to exhaust the strength potential that I hold. (mind you a larger muscle HAS more strength potential). But I believe that the increments that they are created in should be the same.
For instance the Gymnast Vs Bodybuilder
…
um ya So I ranted a LOT
Quick re-cap:
1- Use different Protocals
2- Short workouts
3- Train for your own needs
4- S.A.I.D
I’m revising the “program” for myself, I don’t know whether to use singles like in Singles Club (which I was very successful with) or a Westside protocal. No matter what I am integrating O-lifts. I just love them too much. I do need to include gymnastic/bodyweight training though. My ‘live’ strength. (Namely in wrestling) goes down considerably without it.
This idea, while it seem new and revolutionary, isn’t so much so. Jay Schroeder, the trainer for football freak Adam Archuletta and a host of others, will often times have up to 12 or 13 lifting workouts in a given week (depending on where in the program they are) and, here’s the kicker, sometimes they’ll even bench 12 or 13 times a week! Now, im not suggesting that, esp since i dont know the exact science behind it, but i do have a few suggestions.
For one thing, keep your workouts short. Don’t work out twice for 2 hours each, i dont care who you are, no CNS handles 4 hours of lifting well. Keep it short, intense, and don’t dick around.
Treat you second workout the same as your first. If you feel like you are lagging or dreading that workout, then perhaps that second split isnt working for you. As for supplement and nutrition, I know alot of people slack on eating before they workout, esp if they are only doing one a day. Your body can’t handle that, you can’t skip meals, esp the in-between workout meal.
Sleep. It goes for even if you only workout once, or not at all, but esp if you lift twice a day, you need to give your body that recovery time.
I’ve been doing a two workout split for a year now, and I’ve been lifting seriously for 3 years, im almost 19, and these are my stats
6’0
225 (215 during football season)
Bench: 340
Squat: 415
Dead: 430
i’ll post my workout split etc… later, as for nutrition, i have a D1 training table taking care of me =)
i have a wierd mix in my lifting, a little bit of Westside, Powerlifting, and alot of Archuletta’s workout.
What would be the best way to incorporating two a days with a program like HST? Basically 2 working sets per muscle group full body workouts 3x a week. Would it be best to do half the excercises in the AM then the second half in the PM? Or would it be best to do 1 set of each excercise in the AM and 1 set in the PM? Any thoughts?
[quote]hoosierdaddy wrote:
Hey guys, just throwing in my .02…
This idea, while it seem new and revolutionary, isn’t so much so. Jay Schroeder, the trainer for football freak Adam Archuletta and a host of others, will often times have up to 12 or 13 lifting workouts in a given week (depending on where in the program they are) and, here’s the kicker, sometimes they’ll even bench 12 or 13 times a week!
…
i’ll post my workout split etc… later, as for nutrition, i have a D1 training table taking care of me =)
i have a wierd mix in my lifting, a little bit of Westside, Powerlifting, and alot of Archuletta’s workout.[/quote]
Hey man, do you know about Archuletta’s actual workout? I’ve heard of Schroeder advocating benching 12-13 times a week, but do you know Archuletta’s actual exercise/sets/reps/tempo scheme?
Charles Poliquin used to advocate two a day training for those athletes who have the time. Same muscle groups. First session, heavy weights. Second session, lighter.
Keep both sessions to 40 min or less. He claimed it was one of the best ways to train. However a lot of his programs were too much for mere mortals.
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