[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
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Furthermore. from experience I have found that (unless someone doesn’t have an ok clean technique) people are stronger in the push press (or strict press) when they do it as part of the clean & press than when they do it from racks (without cleaning the weight first). My theory is that the clean portion potentiates the muscles for the press.
What I noticed is that when you do not rack the weight (esssentially you are pulling to your mouth than quickly rotating your elbows down and press up at the same time) the traps and whole delts are continously involved, stay under tension longer and since the rotator cuff muscles get activated it seems to be much gentler on the shoulders.
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These two blurbs describes my experience and also such a practical, awesome explanation, thanks! Looking forward to the videos. In the mean time, to make it more “hypertrophy” oriented, I’m going to do the continuous press from mid thighs (rathre than floor) and less hip action, more “musclely” clean movement. You had some old articles that described this as well
[quote]First, I understand that there is no catch so does that also mean there is absolutely no dropping at all to get under the bar or does it only mean that the bar does not stop moving? For example, on some of my reps I cleaned the weight to mouth/eye level and (almost involuntarily) I dipped a tiny bit under the bar and pressed the weight overhead with no pause in bar movement. Is that acceptable or should the knees stay locked once the pull is completed? [/quote] that’s what I found myself doing when the weight got near the xRM or I was fatigued. Good question and we await CT’s answer
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Ya same here health.I did the set up CT laid out for me last night and like yourself I had some knee dip as well.Loved the lay out though.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
The two that have the greatest potential for causing growth are the power clean & push press and the second one is something I began playing with that shows A LOT of promise… I call it a continuous clean & press; although sometimes it is called a muscle clean & press and even mislabelled as a muscle snatch (e.g. there is a video of Koklyev soing 160 and one of him doing 170kg in that style… you can find it by searching for ‘koklyev muscle snatch’)… basically you do like a power clean but do not rack the bar on the shoulders… as soon as you finish the pull (which should be about mouth level) you rotate your elbows down and press the barbell overhead.[/quote]
[quote]health4ni wrote:
that’s what I found myself doing when the weight got near the xRM or I was fatigued. Good question and we await CT’s answer
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CT: do we simply keep “soft knees” & try to minimise any real knee bend? Or is a little bit ok when reaching xRM?
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
The two that have the greatest potential for causing growth are the power clean & push press and the second one is something I began playing with that shows A LOT of promise… I call it a continuous clean & press; although sometimes it is called a muscle clean & press and even mislabelled as a muscle snatch (e.g. there is a video of Koklyev soing 160 and one of him doing 170kg in that style… you can find it by searching for ‘koklyev muscle snatch’)… basically you do like a power clean but do not rack the bar on the shoulders… as soon as you finish the pull (which should be about mouth level) you rotate your elbows down and press the barbell overhead.[/quote]
[quote]health4ni wrote:
that’s what I found myself doing when the weight got near the xRM or I was fatigued. Good question and we await CT’s answer
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CT: do we simply keep “soft knees” & try to minimise any real knee bend? Or is a little bit ok when reaching xRM?
Thanks[/quote]
Purists would not call it a muscle snatch, but I feel that as long as it’s one continuous movement, it’s perfectly fine… our goal is to build as much muscle, strength and power as possible.
Purists would not call it a muscle snatch, but I feel that as long as it’s one continuous movement, it’s perfectly fine… our goal is to build as much muscle, strength and power as possible.
[/quote] Magic, cheers CT. 2nd session with these tonight & I’m looking forward to it.
CT: Have you continued to perform the Muscle Snatch or Clean-Grip Muscle Snatch (Continuous Clean and Press) since you first created this thread? Any further developments in your thoughts about it’s place in a training program?
[quote]Ricochet wrote:
CT: Have you continued to perform the Muscle Snatch or Clean-Grip Muscle Snatch (Continuous Clean and Press) since you first created this thread? Any further developments in your thoughts about it’s place in a training program? [/quote]
Yes I did, I find it to be a great size, strength and power builder that is very easily learned. A lot of our football linemen are doing it.
I have been performing a layered muscle snatch variation twice or thrice a week (combined with your Bear or Canadian Bear barbell complex) for the past two weeks with great results.
CT: Training for the Muscle Snatch (aka Continuous Clean and Press)…
I have been focusing on high pulls (pulling above the mouth), muscle cleans, military presses, push presses, ‘scrap the rack’ overhead press, and Klokov presses. Regarding the high pulls and cleans am I on the right track pulling the bar higher (to above my mouth) and cleaning with no knee bend?
[quote]Ricochet wrote:
CT: Training for the Muscle Snatch (aka Continuous Clean and Press)…
I have been focusing on high pulls (pulling above the mouth), muscle cleans, military presses, push presses, ‘scrap the rack’ overhead press, and Klokov presses. Regarding the high pulls and cleans am I on the right track pulling the bar higher (to above my mouth) and cleaning with no knee bend?[/quote]
I was digging through some old material and high-pulls to the upper lip were mentioned a few times as one of the top shoulder-builders out there (in addition to military press, push press, and behind-the-neck presses). If I remember right, it was mentioned in Bob Hoffman’s “Broad Shoulders” book, as well as in Charles A Smith’s “Press” articles.
Hoffman was intimately involved with the US Weightlifting team at the time, and Charles Smith coached Doug Hepburn to his world record press, just to lend some credibility to those names.
CT, had a question for you. I have been practicing the Power Clean and Push Press combo for a couple weeks now. I was wondering if you could take a look at this video? This is 205lbs and from what I can see I might be keeping too much arm bend and could possibly increase the weight if I was to dip lower to catch the weight?
[quote]bassip21 wrote:
CT, had a question for you. I have been practicing the Power Clean and Push Press combo for a couple weeks now. I was wondering if you could take a look at this video? This is 205lbs and from what I can see I might be keeping too much arm bend and could possibly increase the weight if I was to dip lower to catch the weight?
In the starting position your chest seems caved in instead of rotated upward�¢?�¦ think big chest (like at the beach) and a arched lower back. In the starting position your arms should be fully elongated not bent at the elbows.
When the bar passes the knees your legs are already fully straightened out and the bar is about 2�¢?? from the body whereas in an optimal first pull the legs should remain bent at about a 110-130 degrees angle (as opposed to your 160-170) and the bar should be as close to the legs as possible. The arms should not be bend at that point and the chest should be pointed more forward and the shoulders should have started to move back (at the moment of explosion the shoulders, bar and heels are as much in a straight line as possible).
Basically as the bar passes the knees you need to do what is called a readjustement (sometimes called a double-knee bend, but only in america) which means simultaneously moving the legs under the bar (imagine sliding the quads under the bar) while you are sweeping the bar toward the hips (imagine doing a straight-arms pull down) to reach the power position (from where you explode upwards), as you are readjusting the legs under the bar the shoulders will automatically move bar, aligning themselves with the bar. When the shoulders, bar and heels are in line imagine doing the biggest jump possible.
You are actually fairly decent at bringing the bar to the hips, but you just wait too long to readjust your legs under the bar and you lose some momentum. The explosive aint that bad, but the catch is bad. You need to catch the bar on the shoulders not hanging above them. Really the key is to aim for your throat, the bar should actually touch the throat as soon as you catch it (not catch it and bring it to the throat) and your elbows should be rotated upwards. That way there will be three contact points: both deltoids and the throat, which will support the load.
To do this as soon as you explode up, think about jumping down into at least a quarter squat positon�¢?�¦ think about slamming your heels down to the floor and at the same time as you drive your heels into the floor, you rotate your elbows up violently.
REGARDING THE ELBOWS BEND
Traditional weightlifting technique has the lifter keep his arms straight until the explosion. The logic is that by bending the arms you will tend to pull with your arms instead of your legs and back.
However recently more and more lifter are using a variation called the hip clean which allows some early arm bend. It is how I now clean and how I teach it to many people.
The basic premise of the hip clean is that the close the bar can be to the hips when you explode up, the better your leverage is and the more power you will transfer to the barbell. So the key point of the hip clean is to get the barbell to the hips, with the knees bent and the shoulders/bar/toes in line and when the bar reaches that point you violently explode upward (you do not segment the movement, you do one fluid motion but when the bar reaches the described power position you explode).
Unless someone has VERY short arms AND a fairly wide clean grip, there will need to be some elbows bent to be able to get the bar into the hips. So in that regard early arm bend is acceptable. But it is NOT arm pulling, only bending the elbows to be able to bring the bar into the hips to be in the best position to explode upwards.
So in that regard I am not against early arm bend if it is used to bring the bar into the hips. However the arms should not bend too early either, only when you start the readjustment (sliding the legs under the bar as the bar passes the knees).
The hip clean is simple…
Control from the floor, shifting the weight on the heels and keeping the bar as close to the body as possible (if it is too far away it’s impossible to bring the bar into the hips).
As the bar passes the knees, readjust the legs under the bar as the back straightens up and you bring the bar into the hip crease.
When the bar reaches the hip crease, violently explode upwards.
As soon as you have exploded, drive your heels into the floor and whip you elbows up, bringing the bar into the throat.
The hip clean is not for everybody. I had two Crossfit guys switch to it yesterday and today. One went from a PR of 235 on the power clean to 265 in one workout, the other one went from a PR of a 215 power clean to 245 in one session. A Crossfit girl went from a 150 PR in the clean to 165 in one session (at a bodyweight of less than 110lbs). However one of my girls had a decrease in performance when trying it. But because you naturally tend to bend the elbows early, it might be a style adapted to you.
Wow, lots to work on and so much information. I am going to print this and follow these critiques. Thank you so much for all the advice, I’ll work on these over the week and hopefully have something better next week.
Wow, lots to work on and so much information. I am going to print this and follow these critiques. Thank you so much for all the advice, I’ll work on these over the week and hopefully have something better next week.
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Wow, lots to work on and so much information. I am going to print this and follow these critiques. Thank you so much for all the advice, I’ll work on these over the week and hopefully have something better next week.
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@CT: If I understand you correctly your preferred method to teach the power clean you would feel the bar ride all the way up the thighs to hip crease then jump under the bar to catch it? The reason I’m asking is this in my mind would optimize the bar path & increase power, but when you look at how Pendley teaches the PC jump & catch, it appears the the bar only goes to your thigh with knee bend, but not to the hip crease.
If I understand you correctly you call your preferred method of teaching the hip clean? I’ve had this debate going on in my mind for a few days now. Thank you for your time & answer as always I appreciate your advice.
[quote]sput79 wrote: @CT: If I understand you correctly your preferred method to teach the power clean you would feel the bar ride all the way up the thighs to hip crease then jump under the bar to catch it? The reason I’m asking is this in my mind would optimize the bar path & increase power, but when you look at how Pendley teaches the PC jump & catch, it appears the the bar only goes to your thigh with knee bend, but not to the hip crease.
If I understand you correctly you call your preferred method of teaching the hip clean? I’ve had this debate going on in my mind for a few days now. Thank you for your time & answer as always I appreciate your advice.[/quote]
It is NOT my preferred way of teaching the clean. It is one method I use with if it fits an individual body type and strengths. I know that Glenn use the mid-thigh projection in his teaching method, but this is just the intro to lifting, I’m sure he tailor’s his teaching to each individual. In fact several of his lifters and former lifters use the hip clean (Donny Shankle, Spencer Moorman and Rob Blackwell),
