I never said he publisized it either, just that there was obviously a claim made that he tried at one time to associate himself with Ben. Regardless, if you believe that he did in fact make those comments than this thread is proof that whatever was said was not confined to the individuals that it was said too.
Also, the main point I was trying to make was that TC was not being hypocritical with the comments he made in reference to Ben and steroids.
Cheers,
Tags
[quote]fastken77 wrote:
All I know is this, Coach Davies is one of the most standup guys I have ever met. When I was getting ready for a pro tryout he sent me a program and gave me feedback over the phone numerous times, even going so far as to drive 5 hours out of his way when he was in the midwest to stop by to see me and critique my form. After all this I had the best tryout I could ever have hoped to have, I ran faster, jumped higher, and benched more than I ever had before while being bigger and leaner than when I played in college. On a S & C level results speak for themselves. Period. On a personal level I would invite the man to my wedding if I thought he would come to the armpit of Iowa to attend. [/quote]
How much did he charge? I need a baseball workout.
[quote]Chris Shugart wrote:
And yes, Charlie Francis is welcome to repond here. I asked him to back when he was raging against Charles Staley but instead he screamed a lot and threatened to sue us. He’ll need to let us know if he wants to respond in the Think Tank area though because only current contribs can respond there and we’ll need to get his name in the system.
[/quote]
Chris,
Here is Charlie’s response to the above:
Two different stories.
First: Chris asked me to write an update on the drugs issue not long ago. I decided that, as I won’t write about it on my own site, I shouldn’t write about it elsewhere any longer.
Second: I was not invited to respond to the Staley situation at the time and this was my first opportunity, for which I’m grateful. Anyone is free to look up the piece and check out lectures I’ve done over the years (some are on tape) to draw their own conclusions.
Do a search at Dave Tates site on Davies…
Check the posts from 2002 and later (more recent)
Although I was confident in what the outcome would be, I went ahead and did a search over at Elite Fitness, for the sake of proving you wrong. Having read any posts remotely related to John Davies, I see nothing but positive reviews of his materials, and endorsements of his training style.
[quote]Moon Knight wrote:
Although I was confident in what the outcome would be, I went ahead and did a search over at Elite Fitness, for the sake of proving you wrong. Having read any posts remotely related to John Davies, I see nothing but positive reviews of his materials, and endorsements of his training style.[/quote]
Search Davies,
Look at posts on 4/16/03, 4/23/03, 5/1/03, 5/3/03, 5/12/03, 6/17/03, 6/19/03, 6/19/03, 7/1/03…Then it gets cut off.
You probably can search Renegade as well…start looking from 2003 on, thats when all the stuff started to surface.
Davies has good gpp stuff.
Coach X is the man though.
This is the last place I ever thought I would hear people bitching about someone using steroids.
RW
Better Living through Chemistry!
[quote]RoadWarrior wrote:
This is the last place I ever thought I would hear people bitching about someone using steroids.
RW
Better Living through Chemistry![/quote]
VERY WELL SAID!!!
Bringing up the steroids scandal here SHOULD be pointless. Yet it was still done. Why? Trying to discredit someone?
I can’t speak for Davies or his ethics but I believe other people have come out and made their opinions known. I can speak about my experience with Charlie Francis as I attended a seminar of his last year. I must say that the man was more than greatful in helping not only me but others as well for practically nothing. What I found particularily interesting is that at dinner in the middle of a restaurant he was still helping two people from Britian with their running form in the middle of the isle. That should speak volumes of the man’s integrty and honor and helping his fellow man.
Charlie Francis coached that fastest man in the world ever, that being Ben Johnson in a time of 9.79 and we all know Ben’s time would have been faster had he not stopped sprinting full out at the 80 meter mark. Did Ben use drugs? Yes he did but the amount was so miniscule bc he cared about his athletes health unlike other countries who were literally changing women into men! By the way 6 out of the 8 finalysts have been proven to have taken some illegal drug in the SEOUL 100m final race, the other two were smart or lucky or financially backed by there countries enough not to get caught! The man has given so much of his free time to athletes that he should have been given coach of the year ever year. What I mean by that is before Ben was making huge amounts of money, Charlie was using his own funding sometimes to support some of his athletes that were with the sprint club the Optimists.
From “Speed Trap” Pg 55 “Membership was open to any young athlete regardless of ability, who displayed enough interest to come out on a regular basis. If they showed up, we took them in. I found that this policy suited me–that the most satisfying part of my job lay in developing people from scratch. The day a coach closes his doors to new hopefuls is the day he starts planning his retirement; no matter how good they are, no stars last forever.”
This included Ben!
On pg 201,
“At one point Ben asked me to oversee his work-outs in the morning, apart from everyone else’s. I declined; I was already putting in 70 hours a week and had no desire to push it to 90”
“Angella tied the world record on the women’s side. It was an important day for her; after running miserably in seven previous indoor meets, she was finally beginning to her 1987 form. Angella was giving interviews to a few people when Ben entered the press area. The reporters flocked to him leaving Angella in mid-sentence. I’d already congratulated Ben after the race, and I had what seemed a simple choice: Should I offer encouragement to the deserted Angella or join the scrum around Ben? I chose Angella, and never thought about it–until I learned from Larry from Ben was upset that I’d ignored him.”
How’s that for leadership? As well,
(Pg 55)
“I was readily accepted by my young charges, in part because of my reputation has a formal national champion.”
Also why would a man with wealth lie in the first place?
“I still thought of myself as an insurance man and enjoyed the amenities that a steady paycheque offered, not least my Aston Martin sports car.”
Charlie has never had trouble finding work, he doesn’t need to lie about what he has accomplished because everybody already knows what he has accomplished and they especially wanted to hire him after SEOUL not bc he knew how to make athletes better by illegal substances but becuase of the brilliance of the man’s training scheme which has carried over to various sports. In fact, if there is any mention of illegal substances on Charlie’s forum then that user will be banned from his site!
To T-Mag, whatever you decide with the Davies Trial, please remember that I only checked out your forum in the first place bc people have given T-Mag high praise from Charlies site in regards to various articles written by many intellegent writers including Charlie himself. I personally wish that this whole Davies on trial should have stayed at the CF forum because I believe T-Mag viewers now are being forced to choose between two individuals and this can cause much animosity and personal attacks on other T-Mag members just wanting to become better athletes. I realize that I am somewhat responsible for this but let it be known that if somebody say Joe starts talking behind my back and saying that he personally coached my best athlete even though my athlete never even met Joe, I would be extremely pissed off too! As for Davies, all I can say is to each his own but what goes around comes around. I believe that Charlie and B Morris have been represented fairly at Charlie’s site and that before T-Mag members make up their mind as to who is right please check out those threads on Davies as well as the ones here on T-Mag and then make your choice.
[quote]Moon Knight wrote:
Although I was confident in what the outcome would be, I went ahead and did a search over at Elite Fitness, for the sake of proving you wrong. Having read any posts remotely related to John Davies, I see nothing but positive reviews of his materials, and endorsements of his training style.[/quote]
You didnt look very hard… Look at everything post 2002…
This is just a general statement with no specific individuals in mind.
What is the point of this discussion?
I can only see two things that being addressed.
Is Coach Davies a man of his word?
Or Is Charlie Francis a man of his word?
Obviously, someone is lying. But, who cares either way? Even if Davies was behind bars for ass raping an alter-boy while attending pre-school in 1965, if his methods work, then well, they work. What does a mans character or history or lack there-of have to do with his specific ability in his professional field. I come here to get some additional insight into training methodologies in the hopes of bettering my time here on earth and under the iron.
In case you didn’t know Superman is dead. And the 50’s mentality of the righteous man’s work product being inseperable from his deeds is over. This is the time of the anti-hero. Where substance dominates and form is for the capitalist pigs. In plain english, it seems as if CF is bitter about what may or may not have been stolen from him and wants sole credit for BJ. CD may or may not have committed said acts but its irrelevant. If everyone wants to dig up skeletons and use that to define the value of training methodoligies then I’m outta here. Thats a sinking ship that will drown all those involved in the quagmire of politally correct and socially acceptable behaviour.
I reserve moral judgement for those that I may or may not invite into my life or my home, not for every conceivable aspect of physical or mental aquisition. If you think that its necessary to pass certain ethical or moral criteria before you have any professional validation, then I hope you have a clean closet. Cause until you turn that scope on yourself you have no idea what you are asking. And I have read alot of CF and CD’s articles and forum topics. I see a pattern of CF having a good fan base and professional credits and CD have solid personal conviction regardless of popularity; both qualities are needed for the sustination of a S$C coach in todays distorted professional environment. I think both sides could learn a lesson, but some lessons are a moot point if their fundamental assumptions are flawed. And if you have to ask, you’ll never know.
[quote]boondoc holiday wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
CDoogies problem is that Francis name is being used as a door mat which is undeserved. Buddy Morrison has stated unequivocally that Davies told him that he coached Ben…
I went to the Francis site when I finally found out which low-life cum-breathed bastards were yakkin’ smack about Coach D. and I couldn’t get in to see anything. But I did get to see a bunch of neat shit on Google when I was looking for it…let’s see…there were words like “shamed coach” and “discredited” and “canker sore on the anus of humanity”…(well okay I made up the last one.
But still.
Buddy Morrison…was he one of the original Monkees?
oh come on dude. just because he got scapegoated for supposedly “telling his athletes to use steroids”? you are using information out of context.
[/quote]
How is it out of context? Go do your own google search, you’ll see for yourself.
[quote]Donzi wrote:
This is just a general statement with no specific individuals in mind.
What is the point of this discussion?
I can only see two things that being addressed.
Is Coach Davies a man of his word?
Or Is Charlie Francis a man of his word?
Obviously, someone is lying. But, who cares either way? Even if Davies was behind bars for ass raping an alter-boy while attending pre-school in 1965, if his methods work, then well, they work. What does a mans character or history or lack there-of have to do with his specific ability in his professional field. I come here to get some additional insight into training methodologies in the hopes of bettering my time here on earth and under the iron.
In case you didn’t know Superman is dead. And the 50’s mentality of the righteous man’s work product being inseperable from his deeds is over. This is the time of the anti-hero. Where substance dominates and form is for the capitalist pigs. In plain english, it seems as if CF is bitter about what may or may not have been stolen from him and wants sole credit for BJ. CD may or may not have committed said acts but its irrelevant. If everyone wants to dig up skeletons and use that to define the value of training methodoligies then I’m outta here. Thats a sinking ship that will drown all those involved in the quagmire of politally correct and socially acceptable behaviour.
I reserve moral judgement for those that I may or may not invite into my life or my home, not for every conceivable aspect of physical or mental aquisition. If you think that its necessary to pass certain ethical or moral criteria before you have any professional validation, then I hope you have a clean closet. Cause until you turn that scope on yourself you have no idea what you are asking. And I have read alot of CF and CD’s articles and forum topics. I see a pattern of CF having a good fan base and professional credits and CD have solid personal conviction regardless of popularity; both qualities are needed for the sustination of a S$C coach in todays distorted professional environment. I think both sides could learn a lesson, but some lessons are a moot point if their fundamental assumptions are flawed. And if you have to ask, you’ll never know. [/quote]
Donzi,
This is completely ignorant. Someone works there whole life obtaining a goal and becomes one of the greatest traning minds we’ve ever seen. Then you have someone pawn off (and not even the right way) what you’ve done to make money! Its unethical and thats the point of this whole thing. Comparing Davies and Francis isn’t the point because there is no comparison. Its like comparing a pro athlete to a a high school athlete. The point is Davies has lied about his “resume” to get further in his career. Is whole code of honor is a fraud.
Charlie is just jealous Coach D thought of Pink tshirts before he did
can it get anymore “renegade” than a pink tshirt?
And believe me, FIFA does not operate like the NFL. They are a hugely political animal.
A couple of points I would like to raise
It may have been move believiable if JD had said the Argentinean football association had asked him, since they where DM’s actual NGB and the equilivent of the NFL in the US. FIFA is so far removed its silly. Its like saying the IOC completely by passed the USOC to supply a coach for one of the USA’s top athletes, while he was on or coming back from a drug ban!
having BJ photographed with DM was NOT good public retations for Football.
Why would anyone in football turn to and beg a little known Northern Americian coach to condition DM. There are plenty of conditioning coaches all over the world who have grown up round and have experence working with the game who they would have turned to first. Ask yourself would a leading NFL or NBA team turn to a conditioning coach with no experence working with their sport?
to suggest this and to suggest that someone in their late forties with zero experence there could walk in and play any sport at an elite level shows a very limited understanding of the working and requirements of high performance sport.
The concepts CF refers to here have been around long before CF or I stepped into the arena, and in fact, back when CF was originally claiming that I plagerized his intellectual property, he mentioned that he was exposed to these concepts by Verkoshansky.
In CF’s book The Charlie Francis Speed System, he used the terms “vertical integration” and “horizontal integration” to describe two contrasting styles of organizing workloads.
The former term refers to the more traditional method where the athlete focuses on one type of work for a period of time, followed by another type of work for a period of time, etc.
The latter term refers to CF’s preferred style of working on various types of work simultaneously.
Then, in an article for T-Mag called “Periodization That Works,” I used the term “diagonal summation”
Here’s an excerpt from the article:
Diagonal Summation
The macrocycle we’ve been looking at, when taken too literally, is an example of what I call “horizontal summation.” In other words, you work on one quality for a while, then the next quality for a while, etc. Horizontal summation is predicated on the correct assumption that you can only work on so much stuff at any given time. It’s kind of like packing for a trip ? you can only get a limited about of stuff in the suitcase, so it better be the most important stuff.
If you’re a contrarion, out-of-the-box thinker like I am, you might feel compelled to do exactly the opposite – vertical summation. But in this case anyway, “doing the opposite” has it’s own drawbacks. Specifically, when you try to develop every imaginable quality at the same time, you can’t really do adequate justice to any of them.
What’s the answer? Diagonal summation of course! All this means is that you’ll always work on everything, but with varying degrees of emphasis depending on which phase you’re in at the time. So as an example, during a maximal strength phase, about 1/2 of your time and energy will be spent focusing on maximal strength, and the remaining 1/2 will be devoted to maintain the remaining relevant qualities.
Now, did I use similar terms as CF? Sure. But did he create or does he own the term “diagonal summation”? No. Do I own it? No! Is the whole thing a silly argument? YES! So Charlie, if you want to claim ownership of the term “diagonal summation,” be my guest!
During that original fracas, I acknowledged, as I always have, that CF has been an influence on my thinking and development. I’m not sure what else he wants me to say.
Finally, I never claimed to be in better shape than Charlie ? that’s not my style and it would be an apples & oranges type of comparison. What happened is that someone else (can’t remember who) came to my defence and said I was in better shape than CF.
That’s it for me!
[quote]doogie wrote:
From Charlie Francis’ site:
4: Charles Staley DID publish material he got from me while visiting in Toronto (material he named Horizontal Summation). I was asked by one of his athletes to meet with him and I did so in good faith and for free, and I was shocked to see it in print as his.
He was given a number of chances to acknowledge where the material came from and he did not. I urge you to look up this work and read it for yourself. Anyone who has attended my lectures going back over 10 years will recognize it immediately.
I was not permitted to respond by T-Mag then, as now, and Staley’s defence was that he’s in better shape than me. Of that there is no doubt- but, perhaps if I saved time and re-cycled other’s work, I’d have more personal time for the gym.
[/quote]
[quote]Peter Davis wrote:
And believe me, FIFA does not operate like the NFL. They are a hugely political animal.
A couple of points I would like to raise
It may have been move believiable if JD had said the Argentinean football association had asked him, since they where DM’s actual NGB and the equilivent of the NFL in the US. FIFA is so far removed its silly. Its like saying the IOC completely by passed the USOC to supply a coach for one of the USA’s top athletes, while he was on or coming back from a drug ban!
Why would anyone in football turn to and beg a little known Northern Americian coach to condition DM. There are plenty of conditioning coaches all over the world who have grown up round and have experence working with the game who they would have turned to first. Ask yourself would a leading NFL or NBA team turn to a conditioning coach with no experence working with their sport?
[/quote]
On point #1, while you raise an interesting issue, given the political nature of FIFA, I am not so sure that JD’s assertion is off base at all. FIFA meddles throughout the sport, so it would not surprise me all that greatly that they would seek help by going around the national soccer body in Argentina for one of the sport’s top stars (at least at the time).
On point #3, of “Why would anyone in football turn to and beg a little known Northern Americian coach to condition DM”. Little known according to who? You?
I’m always a little suspect of the motives of someone weighing in this heavily on a thread who only has a total of 2 postings to the site.
Kuz
I believe that Staley stole CF’s stuff, because one day he stole my shoes out of my locker. True Story.
-Man, this is getting sad.
And, training info aside, how much balls does it take to write under the name Coach X?