The Davies Debate

[quote]ccardill wrote:
Chris,

Here is Charlie’s response to the above:

Two different stories.
First: Chris asked me to write an update on the drugs issue not long ago. I decided that, as I won’t write about it on my own site, I shouldn’t write about it elsewhere any longer.
Second: I was not invited to respond to the Staley situation at the time and this was my first opportunity, for which I’m grateful. Anyone is free to look up the piece and check out lectures I’ve done over the years (some are on tape) to draw their own conclusions.
[/quote]

That first part is true. He doesn’t want to write about drug stuff anymore, at least not in full articles.

The second part, well, I did ask him, so we’re at a “he said, he said” thing again. It was a phone conversation from several years ago, so I understand if he forgot.

He wanted us to pull an article by Staley. I asked him to instead write something, a rebuttal or whatever he wanted, and we’d publish it in our Reader Mail section we had at the time. Then he screamed a lot and mentioned lawyers.

I told him that his issue seemed to be with Staley and not us. We hung up on okay terms as I remember, but haven’t spoken since. He never sued, never sent a rebuttal, and we never took down the Staley article.

I always enjoyed talking with Charlie on the phone, not counting the screaming part. He’d call me up and throw these while government conspiracy theories at me. He was really paranoid about that kind of thing. I just listened to him because all I could think was, “Holy cow, I’m on the phone with Charlie Francis!”

I still think Speed Trap is one of the best sports books ever written. Francis was and always will be the “Rocket Scientist” of sports training. (That was the title of my interview with him.)

But, he’s a bit of a conspiracy theorist, thinks everyone is out to get him or rips him off (and I’m sure many do) and he doesn’t play well with other coaches. His style of arguing against other experts is to basically grossly simplify what they say, than attack that watered down version instead of the real statement. I think this is sort of a “straw man” method.

I don’t think Charlie is a bad guy though. Generally speaking, most Internet drama is not the result of the coaches but their hangers-on and sycophants. These “me too’s” from either camp get overheated about stuff while in real life the actual coaches talk on the phone, get along okay and have a sense of respect for each other even if they don’t agree on every point.

That may not be true here, but in most cases it’s the “entourages” that live for the soap opera drama and not the “stars” themselves.

It matters to me, I bet it matters to Coach too…that’s just the kind of guy he is. Not to get nto a moral argument with you, but it’s people not caring about character that’s dragging the world down. In my opinion.

[quote]Donzi wrote:
This is just a general statement with no specific individuals in mind.

What is the point of this discussion?

I can only see two things that being addressed.

  1. Is Coach Davies a man of his word?

  2. Or Is Charlie Francis a man of his word?

Obviously, someone is lying. But, who cares either way? Even if Davies was behind bars for ass raping an alter-boy while attending pre-school in 1965, if his methods work, then well, they work. What does a mans character or history or lack there-of have to do with his specific ability in his professional field. I come here to get some additional insight into training methodologies in the hopes of bettering my time here on earth and under the iron.

In case you didn’t know Superman is dead. And the 50’s mentality of the righteous man’s work product being inseperable from his deeds is over. This is the time of the anti-hero. Where substance dominates and form is for the capitalist pigs. In plain english, it seems as if CF is bitter about what may or may not have been stolen from him and wants sole credit for BJ. CD may or may not have committed said acts but its irrelevant. If everyone wants to dig up skeletons and use that to define the value of training methodoligies then I’m outta here. Thats a sinking ship that will drown all those involved in the quagmire of politally correct and socially acceptable behaviour.

I reserve moral judgement for those that I may or may not invite into my life or my home, not for every conceivable aspect of physical or mental aquisition. If you think that its necessary to pass certain ethical or moral criteria before you have any professional validation, then I hope you have a clean closet. Cause until you turn that scope on yourself you have no idea what you are asking. And I have read alot of CF and CD’s articles and forum topics. I see a pattern of CF having a good fan base and professional credits and CD have solid personal conviction regardless of popularity; both qualities are needed for the sustination of a S$C coach in todays distorted professional environment. I think both sides could learn a lesson, but some lessons are a moot point if their fundamental assumptions are flawed. And if you have to ask, you’ll never know. [/quote]

[quote]That may not be true here, but in most cases it’s the “entourages” that live for the soap opera drama and not the “stars” themselves.

[/quote]

well yeah. that’s how the entourage gets to be part of it and important.

[quote]IL Cazzo wrote:
And, training info aside, how much balls does it take to write under the name Coach X?[/quote]

To comment on this briefly, it has absolutely nothing to do with not having balls. Suffice it to say that the vast majority of collegiate athletics programs do not want their employees anywhere near internet forums, especially those forums with any affiliation with AAS or even supplements banned by the NCAA (a VERY long list). Writing under a different name is a means around this potential conflict.

what venom said.

[quote]IL Cazzo wrote:
And, training info aside, how much balls does it take to write under the name Coach X?[/quote]

IL Cazzo- From Elitefts: "Coach X is a high-level strength coach that has worked with thousands of elite athletes in high school, college and professional sports. He is known for producing staggering results and taking an uncompromising attitude to coaching and training. His no nonsense approach and hardcore methods have given him a reputation as being both feared and respected by athletes and his peers. Due to contract agreements with his current employer he cannot be named. Despite this, he refuses to be silenced and jumped at the opportunity to use EliteFTS.com as a forum to voice his opinions and his training knowledge to further the development of athletes and strength coaches. Be warned; he does not pull punches and refuses to compromise when it comes to maximal strength training and the development of the athlete.

for me this isn’t about what one guy thinks of the next. this little “debate” goes way deeper than that. let it be known if it weren’t for the “entourages” these “stars” would be out of jobs.

Coach John Davies is a good man that has gone out of his way to help many people. And like a good coach, he has done a wonderful job of marketing himself and his product (Renegade Training and the Renegade way of life).

I don’t think he needs to justify himself to anyone. Now that he has, this will probably continue to go on forever with “he said, she said” banter on the internet.

Obviously, those who have worked with him, spoken to him (in person, on the phone or through email) have good things to say about him. Others may not. It’s the nature of the beast.

I’ve had wonderful success with Renegade Training in the past. And although I am no longer using that style of training, I am still a proponent of Coach Davies and his methods (depending on your goals). Is he the end-all, be-all for everyone? Of course not. Is he a great coach like the many coaches that contribute to T-Mag on a daily basis? Definitely.

Eric and Speed,

I understand why he has to write under the “X”, no problem at all with that. I just think it’s a bit crappy to then attack another strength coach while under and anon. name. That was my complaint…lookin at my post, I didn’t make that clear enough, sorry bout that.

It’ ludicrous, who cares who’s right. There both competent coaches whose methodontics work.

Some advice for the coaches get on the phone to each other and works this out like men!

I think another thing that people are missing here is that when you attack a coach from behind a fake name on a computer screen, you are endangering his career. He doesnt get a chance to go online and post about how you are a horrible garbage man you are or whatever.

[quote]oboffill wrote:

I don’t believe Davies has been honest about this whole affair. I also feel a little disappointed in the way TC busted this out: “We’re not sure why anyone would lie about claiming to train an embarrassing drug cheat (in the general public’s eyes)”

Maybe because there is a difference in “cheating” with the help of anabolics for recreation and so you can pull more trim and play ‘ankles up’ with a few more women, and using anabolics to win a gold metal(s) in the name of your country and goodwill!

Dink!

quote]

Sounds like much ado about nothing, driven mainly by wild speculation on behalf of the general public…

[quote]vroom wrote:
Sounds like much ado about nothing, driven mainly by wild speculation on behalf of the general public…[/quote]

you believed John Kerry was in Cambodia on Christmas too, didn’t you?

!

[quote]BOSS wrote:
It’ ludicrous, who cares who’s right. There both competent coaches whose methodontics work.

Some advice for the coaches get on the phone to each other and works this out like men!
[/quote]

i agree with you about this argument but i will say that this entire issue was instigated by CF and BM not JD…they have his phone number, email and whatever else they need. JD has stated on this numerous times that if anyone would like to discuss matters they can call him. if he doesn’t post a response at CF then he is a coward. IMO hiding behind public forums to gain sympathy and support is cowardly

[quote]vroom wrote:
Sounds like much ado about nothing, driven mainly by wild speculation on behalf of the general public…[/quote]

Ah yes, internet drama! The soul-nourishing food of lonely souls everywhere fed through the swollen digital teat of conflict…

Yum!

This is silly and boils down to conflict and opinion fueled by a strange need to “search for truth”. I have to say, that if you really want to search for truth how about giving O.J a fucking hand finding the real killers or maybe get the real dirt on that homo Teletubbie (I just know he’s doin’ Richard Simmons).

This type of stuff is rampant in all walks of life and while I will agree with those who feel integrity is an issue I would disagree with the drama made of it.

Vote with your feet man.

…also…this conspiracy stuff is a little too much and is so distasteful to pursue.

(is that good enough Chris, will you get the fuck outta my hedges now?)

“This sure is a big knoll to climb!”

~ TC in Dallas

[quote]BOSS wrote:
It’ ludicrous, who cares who’s right. There both competent coaches whose methodontics work.

Some advice for the coaches get on the phone to each other and works this out like men!
[/quote]

methodontics? ha, sweet. that’s a new one on me. good word strong bad.

[quote]diggers04 wrote:
i agree with you about this argument but i will say that this entire issue was instigated by CF and BM not JD…they have his phone number, email and whatever else they need. JD has stated on this numerous times that if anyone would like to discuss matters they can call him. if he doesn’t post a response at CF then he is a coward. IMO hiding behind public forums to gain sympathy and support is cowardly
[/quote]
I’m confused. JD’s put himself out there to solve it, but if he doesn’t go over to the forum/web site of a guy that’s spreading lies about him he’s a coward? Is that what you’re saying?

[

On point #1, while you raise an interesting issue, given the political nature of FIFA, I am not so sure that JD’s assertion is off base at all. FIFA meddles throughout the sport, so it would not surprise me all that greatly that they would seek help by going around the national soccer body in Argentina for one of the sport’s top stars (at least at the time).

On point #3, of “Why would anyone in football turn to and beg a little known Northern Americian coach to condition DM”. Little known according to who? You?

  1. Diego was about 10 years past his prime at the time and to the best of my memory was not even signed to a club when this happened. They would have no reason to get him fit.

  2. do you really believe the senior members of FIFA have a strong knowledge of the world of S and C and would have hooked two men with drug bans up with each for PR then secretly got another coach to do the actual training. How would this benefit them in any way?

Perhaps it may be worth looking at the role FIFA plays in world football rather than just taking someones word that it is a highly political organisation. The system is uncomparable to any americian system

[quote]IL Cazzo wrote:
Eric and Speed,

I understand why he has to write under the “X”, no problem at all with that. I just think it’s a bit crappy to then attack another strength coach while under and anon. name. That was my complaint…lookin at my post, I didn’t make that clear enough, sorry bout that.[/quote]

If you do a little (and I mean a tiny bit) of digging, it’s pretty damn clear who Coach X is. It’s not some big secret.