The Big 6 Compound Exercises

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]wufwugy wrote:
OneEye wrote:
If you do only 6 lifts forever and ever, you will burn out your CNS. Plain and simple. These 6 lifts are fantastic lifts, some of the best, but to limit yourself to only these 6 is asking for trouble. This is a central idea in Westside training.

And yes, they should form the core of your lifting routine, but these lifts exclusively? Not a good idea.

concerning CNS stimulation/stress manageament, exercise selection is the least of issues. actually, it’s a non-issue.

the idea that Westside switches exercises to manage CNS stimulation/stressing is made up.[/quote]

I think I know what your saying about it not being done to manage training stress, but I remember reading one Simmons article where he talked about how people overstress mentally when they start to know what weight they have to hit to set a new PR-even more so if its the squat or bench itself-and that you start to get over adrenalized even before the heavy sets start.

22

[quote]loctite_zexel wrote:
1.Barbell Bench Press → chest, front delts, triceps

2.Barbell Bent-Over Row → lats, biceps

3.neutral-grip Chin-ups → lats, biceps

4.Weighted Dips (torso upright) → chest, front delts, triceps

5.Deadlift → posterior chain

6.Squat → quads, glutes

**I know dumbbell rows hit the rear delts if you perform the exercise with your ‘elbows out’ however, I’m doing refering to the ‘traditional’ bent-over row
[/quote]

  1. By bent over row, do you mean rowing to the low chest, or rowing to the waist? The TRAPS and LATS just about equally make up the upper back. Rowing to the waist is good for Lats for many people, but rowing to the chest is critical for the huge lower traps, and are probably the best rear delt exercise around as well, and I’m sure work the medial delts too.

  2. Pullups, I believe are tricky and depend on the individual. I really feel that there are two distinct motions, first, pulling until your eyes are about even with the bar, or until your chin just touches the bar, or another way to describe it is until the arms are parallel to the floor. Fred Hatfield wrote that the lats stop working at that point. For me, it is true. Neutral or overhand grip here. The second half of the ROM involves subscapular muscles. Not necessary if you do rows.

My opinion-row to the chest-overhand, pullup until the chin just touches the bar-overhand or neutral.

Bench presses mean a lot of different things depending on slight changes in form. Dips can be a good chest exercise for some, a GREAT tricep exercise (the best) if done right.

Squats, deads and bent back goodmornings to parallel-depending on your weak area.

23

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
I think I know what your saying about it not being done to manage training stress, but I remember reading one Simmons article where he talked about how people overstress mentally when they start to know what weight they have to hit to set a new PR-even more so if its the squat or bench itself-and that you start to get over adrenalized even before the heavy sets start. [/quote]

not all Simmons stuff should be taken at teh same value as all other. ex: i read a Simmons article about the “correct” benching technique, and i believed it. only to find out that Metal Militia did it differently, beat Westside, and now Westside doesn’t do it that way. yet that Simmons article is still out there.

the mental stress thing must be dealt with. that’s part of the game. Westside has tried to up the competition lifts by not doing them, but sport-specificity was lost, and they’re changing their ways.

dont get me wrong, switching exercises has purposes. it’s just that the reasons given by 99% (arbitrary # ahoy) of people are wrong, IMO.

24

Just a few things to clarify

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

  1. By bent over row, do you mean rowing to the low chest, or rowing to the waist? The TRAPS and LATS just about equally make up the upper back. Rowing to the waist is good for Lats for many people, but rowing to the chest is critical for the huge lower traps, and are probably the best rear delt exercise around as well, and I’m sure work the medial delts too.
    [/quote]

So rowing to the lower chest hits TRAPS, LATS, and REAR DELTS?

There’s a variation to the dumbbell row that I sometimes do after the barbell bent-overs, I row the dumbells with my elbows ‘sticking out’ and my upper arms are perpendicular to my torso… I believe this hits the rear delts and upper back more?

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
2) Pullups, I believe are tricky and depend on the individual. I really feel that there are two distinct motions, first, pulling until your eyes are about even with the bar, or until your chin just touches the bar, or another way to describe it is until the arms are parallel to the floor. Fred Hatfield wrote that the lats stop working at that point. For me, it is true. Neutral or overhand grip here. The second half of the ROM involves subscapular muscles. Not necessary if you do rows.
[/quote]

I googled ‘subscapular muscles’ and ended up being more confused. From what I gather, do you mean that the first half of the ROM (pulling until your arms are parallel to the floor) target the lats and traps while the second half of the ROM target the rear delts and biceps?

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
My opinion-row to the chest-overhand, pullup until the chin just touches the bar-overhand or neutral.
[/quote]

thanks for the tip. Problem is I can’t do very many pull-ups… so I guess I’m stuck with neutral chins for now.

25

[quote]OneEye wrote:
If you do only 6 lifts forever and ever, you will burn out your CNS. Plain and simple. These 6 lifts are fantastic lifts, some of the best, but to limit yourself to only these 6 is asking for trouble. This is a central idea in Westside training.

And yes, they should form the core of your lifting routine, but these lifts exclusively? Not a good idea.[/quote]

No, you won’t. Plain and simple. I vote this the most erroneous statement of the week on T-nation (well, besides the thread on masturbation limiting you gains). Exercise selection has little to nothing to do with CNS burnout. It’s all about managing your volume.

26

[quote]Dan McVicker wrote:
Out of curiosity, where’d you get this list?
[/quote]

LoL… these 6 exercises weren’t listed per se. What I meant (and should have written was), among all the major compound exercises I read about in this site, these are the six I feel most comfortable with. (I’m not about to attempt power cleans, high-pulls, or front squats)

And I would’ve included the military press or some form of push press, but I had trouble finding another suitable vertical pulling exercise to pair with it.

For example, say I do 4 sets of dips and 4 sets of chins, then if I was to perform some overhead pressing I’d have to ‘balance’ it out with some more vertical pulling… and by this time, I’d be too wiped out from the initial first four sets of chins.

[quote]Dan McVicker wrote:
In other words, squat to make your biceps grow.
[/quote]

Lol, if more newbies like moi would have squats and deadlifts explained that way… I’m sure those two lifts would gain tremendous popularity.

…take my gym for instance, I’m pretty much the only one who uses the squat rack, except for this one incident when some dude was doing some bicep curls there.

[quote]Dan McVicker wrote:
Hope this helps.

[/quote]

Your post sure did. Thanks

27

[quote]Dan McVicker wrote:
If you’re limiting your exercise selection this much, you should (as other posters have noted) choose the military press. It works all three heads of the delts, the triceps, as well as the chest and back in a supporting role.
[/quote]

So overhead push presses work out the rear delts to some extent? THAT, I didn’t know.

28

loctite,

it nice to see somebody with a question in the beginners section (or anywhere actually) who continues to ask and comment in his own thread.

two things…

  1. when adhering to the horizontal/vertical plane principle, chins and dips dont balance each other. chins is vertical and dips is horizontal. breaking it down:
    bench press=horizontal
    dips=horizontal
    chins=vertical
    rows=horizontal
    military=vertical

  2. overhead push press does NOT work posterior delts. that’s a pulling muscle.

FYI, one arm chins work my post delts very well.

29

[quote]loctite_zexel wrote:
Just a few things to clarify

  1. So rowing to the lower chest hits TRAPS, LATS, and REAR DELTS?

There’s a variation to the dumbbell row that I sometimes do after the barbell bent-overs, I row the dumbells with my elbows ‘sticking out’ and my upper arms are perpendicular to my torso… I believe this hits the rear delts and upper back more?

  1. I googled ‘subscapular muscles’ and ended up being more confused. From what I gather, do you mean that the first half of the ROM (pulling until your arms are parallel to the floor) target the lats and traps while the second half of the ROM target the rear delts and biceps?

  2. mertdawg wrote:
    My opinion-row to the chest-overhand, pullup until the chin just touches the bar-overhand or neutral.

thanks for the tip. Problem is I can’t do very many pull-ups… so I guess I’m stuck with neutral chins for now.[/quote]

  1. And Infraspinatus, teres and yes even the pecs.

  2. I don’t think its necessary to keep the elbows out. Please note, I’m talking about barbell rows here. Because the bar keep the hands at a fixed distance, you actually can leverege against the bar to keep the back working. There are basically 2 types of bent rows I do.

First, (and now that I’ve gone to chinning only to parallel its the main form) is tight, slightly arched back, pull straight up and to the bottom of the sternum. It has brought up my lower traps considerably in only 6-7 weeks.

Second is tightly arched back, sucked in gut, pulling to the belt and not completely bent over. This hits the lats, but now I like chins better.

  1. What I found is that I can currently do about 6-7 full range pullups, but I can do 10-12 in the lower half and 10-12 in the upper half. There is a transition that takes place in the middle where you start to activate other muscles-the ones I mentioned, but doing the upper half REALLY tears up my biceps at the elbow and I don’t really see any growth from it.
30

[quote]wufwugy wrote:
loctite,

it nice to see somebody with a question in the beginners section (or anywhere actually) who continues to ask and comment in his own thread.

two things…

  1. when adhering to the horizontal/vertical plane principle, chins and dips dont balance each other. chins is vertical and dips is horizontal. breaking it down:
    bench press=horizontal
    dips=horizontal
    chins=vertical
    rows=horizontal
    military=vertical

  2. overhead push press does NOT work posterior delts. that’s a pulling muscle.

FYI, one arm chins work my post delts very well.[/quote]

Dips can be paired pretty well with rows to the chest, while Benches pair well with rows to the waist.

31

Or you could pair clean high pulls with dips, however, I see a big difference between dipping for the tris (elbows bend first and elbows point bach) with dipping for the chest.

32

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

There’s a variation to the dumbbell row that I sometimes do after the barbell bent-overs, I row the dumbells with my elbows ‘sticking out’ and my upper arms are perpendicular to my torso… I believe this hits the rear delts and upper back more?

  1. I don’t think its necessary to keep the elbows out. Please note, I’m talking about barbell rows here. Because the bar keep the hands at a fixed distance, you actually can leverege against the bar to keep the back working. There are basically 2 types of bent rows I do.
    [/quote]

Thanks for the advice, but any particular comment on the dumbbell row variation I do?

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
First, (and now that I’ve gone to chinning only to parallel its the main form) is tight, slightly arched back, pull straight up and to the bottom of the sternum. It has brought up my lower traps considerably in only 6-7 weeks.

Second is tightly arched back, sucked in gut, pulling to the belt and not completely bent over. This hits the lats, but now I like chins better.
[/quote]

So basically, you rely on chinning to parallel to target lats, and rowing to the lower chest (bottom sternum) in order to hit traps and rear delts?

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
3) What I found is that I can currently do about 6-7 full range pullups, but I can do 10-12 in the lower half and 10-12 in the upper half. There is a transition that takes place in the middle where you start to activate other muscles-the ones I mentioned, but doing the upper half REALLY tears up my biceps at the elbow and I don’t really see any growth from it. [/quote]

Forgive me for being a dumb ass, but I am still a little unclear on what the ‘subscapular muscles’ are. Or to be more precise, what muscles do the second half of the ROM of chins hit?

[quote]loctite_zexel wrote:

I googled ‘subscapular muscles’ and ended up being more confused. From what I gather, do you mean that the first half of the ROM (pulling until your arms are parallel to the floor) target the lats and traps while the second half of the ROM target the rear delts and biceps?
[/quote]

I don’t know if you answered this question or not, but I re-read your post several times and still did not get a definitive answer.

33

Oh, and I’ve been meaning to ask, I noticed that when people recommend an overhead push press, they usually recommend the standing military press.

What advantage does this have over the seated military press? Is it recommended for a newbie to do the standing variation instead of the seated?

(the seated version seems a lot easier on the lower back because you get to lean back on the chair for support)

34

[quote]loctite_zexel wrote:
Oh, and I’ve been meaning to ask, I noticed that when people recommend an overhead push press, they usually recommend the standing military press.

What advantage does this have over the seated military press? Is it recommended for a newbie to do the standing variation instead of the seated?

(the seated version seems a lot easier on the lower back because you get to lean back on the chair for support)[/quote]

Think of the body as one piece. The Standing Military is a great test of strength AND an excellent excercise for your abs and lower back. I know this because I do them. Another great ab and low back excercise is the overhead squat. Just started doing them to correct my squat form, which is BBBAAADDD!!!

35

[quote]loctite_zexel wrote:
Oh, and I’ve been meaning to ask, I noticed that when people recommend an overhead push press, they usually recommend the standing military press.

What advantage does this have over the seated military press? Is it recommended for a newbie to do the standing variation instead of the seated?

(the seated version seems a lot easier on the lower back because you get to lean back on the chair for support)[/quote]

The main benefit is the fact that standing overhead pressing builds “core strength” as the respective muscle are utilized as stabilzers.

By the way, the push press is executed somewhat differently than the military press. Basically, you dip down by bending the knees, hips and ankles slightly and subsequently drive upward with the legs in an explosive manner. Drive the barbell off the shoulders, pressing the weight overhead.

Hope this helps.

36

Thanks for clearing that up ruglayer and michael.

I was reading through various articles regarding the ‘dip.’ I got mixed answers regarding proper form, some say to utilize a full ROM (lowering your body until shoulders are below elbow joints) while others suggest stopping when your upper arms are parallel to the floor.

Now I know that ultimately, I should go with what feels comfortable. But as a newbie, its kinda hard to distinguish ‘natural discomfort from the load’ from ‘discomfort due to poor form’

So in other words, what’s the proper way to execute a dip? (the dip I’m referring to is where your torso is upright, elbows pointed straight back, targeting triceps)

37

ROM (range of motion) affects the muscles recruited and the recruiting patterns of said muscles. i recommend for beginners to do full ROM if it doesn’t cause pain or such. this helps create proper function.

the causing of pain in any realistic exercise is not because of exercise flaw but individual flaw that inhibits one’s ability to perform exercise.

basically, if you can, do full ROM dips.

38

[quote]conorh wrote:
How about power snatches?[/quote]

yeah i would love to see more olympic exercises incorporated more…cleans,push presses, overhead squats,press unders are all wonderful

39

[quote]ZachDelDesert wrote:
conorh wrote:
How about power snatches?

yeah i would love to see more olympic exercises incorporated more…cleans,push presses, overhead squats,press unders are all wonderful

[/quote]

Wonderful and underrated. People assume they’re to complex to learn how to do. Doesn’t make sense to me.

Also, I understand that it takes a certain amount of external rotation strength and shoulder flexibility to perform the O-lifts. On the other hand, they also tend to build shoulder flexibility and external rotation strength, in my humble opinion. I have no shoulder issues since doing lots of power snatches.

Also, they’re just bad ass.