Strong Accessory Lifts; Weak Power Lifts

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
1

Gentlemen,

As some fellow T-Nationers who train with me have noted, I maintain some pretty sorry big-3 numbers by any standards. The bench isn’t AS bad, but the squat and deadlift are clearly worse.

Bodyweight = 195 lbs @ 5’11
Bench = 265
Squat = 285
Deadlift = 355 sumo
*All raw

However, a lot of the accessory lifts, such as heavy lunges, rows, pulldowns, good mornings, back extensions, are all pretty reasonable for a 195 pounder.

Hungry4more suggests it may be a single weak point, or just a piss-poor job of recruiting muscle fibers to fire quickly to generate power. I have a small buttwink in a parallel squat and conventional deadlift (down position), and a very pronounced buttwink in ATG squats. Oddly, I consider my hamstrings to be quite flexible, as I can bring my face next to my knees when I stretch. My hip mobility is not very good, which is probably the reason for the buttwink.

Personal belief: the buttwink causes my back to lose tension and round slightly, thus I cannot transfer the power generated by my legs (26") and hips (40") to the bar I am trying to move. I feel that my low back is reasonably strong but I am not sure why I can’t seem to keep it straight while in the hole … or if this is the real reason why my lifts are poor.

2

My opinion it’s your core. I have somewhat of the same problem.

3

how respectable are your accessory lifts? Providing they are, all I can think of is a lack of ab work and practice. Have you ever tried high volume in the big three, like a sheiko, maybe a 5x5 program?

4

Work on your hip mobility. Losing tension during squats and deadlifts will make the movement harder and give you a sticking point. Poor mobility will fuck you up if you don’t don’t do something about it.

Obviously, there is no quick fix that will take those numbers from where they are now to strong, so don’t make this an excuse. If your accessory lifts are good then you must focus on the main lifts and practice them frequently.

5

[quote]MrEdofCourse wrote:
My opinion it’s your core. I have somewhat of the same problem.[/quote]

In terms of weak points, it’s almost ALWAYS the core.

That said, you’re probably just putting too much time into you’re accessory stuff. The accessory stuff has to be pushed up, but not in the same way as the main lift. I used to have this same problem, taking 2-3 minutes between sets on accessory stuff, going all out on a set of abs or something stupid like that.

Louie Simmons likes to talk about how the muscle has to be completely worked, I didn’t think to ask how to do this, but I like to pick a weight and a rep range and hit it for multiple sets till failure. An example would be on ab pulldowns, I’ll throw 100lbs on, pick a variation, and do sets of 12-15 with 30s between sets until there is no way I could get 12 on another set.

Another thing I like to do is work up to a heavy set, say a set of 10, short rest periods and all, and then drop down for a burn out set.

It seems very bodybuilder-ish, but it works. From here, push your accessory stuff up and you should see your main lifts go up. If not, pick different accessories.

Other than that, the other answer is that your form sucks on the big 3. If you can’t get tight enough when squatting, I don’t care what you do on lunges or GHRs, you’re never gunna have a good squat.

6

my guess would be technique…get somebody who knows what they are talking about to evaluate your lifts. Once your technique is sound…drill it with tons of volume on the big 3

7

Two things that helped me with lower back rounding at the bottom of the squat 1) stretching adductors (inside thigh muscles) 2) GM’s/back extensions.

I too had good hamstring flexibility but found that my adductors were very tight. I began sitting on the floor with legs as far spread apart as possible and then stretched foward. There’s a video of chad aichs doing this before a contest on youtube if you need a visual reference. After awhile, my depth was much improved.

Gm’s/back extensions benefits are obvious. If you have strong lumbar erectors you will be able to maintain your lordosis/low back arch throughout your lifts.

8

Thanks for the responses. Even during a body weight squat descent, I can’t keep my back very straight. When I try to fire my erectors they seem to just bend anyway. That being said, it probably isn’t that they aren’t strong enough to support a weight, but rather some serious mobility issues.

I tore my quad near the hip flexor doing sprints last year, coupled with 2 spinal disc herniations that left my back very tight for some time. I would imagine that this has contributed to my inability to squat well.

9

[quote]thirdnalga wrote:
how respectable are your accessory lifts? Providing they are, all I can think of is a lack of ab work and practice. Have you ever tried high volume in the big three, like a sheiko, maybe a 5x5 program?[/quote]

For what it’s worth, here are the lifts. Since the general consensus seems to be a core weakness, I will put the core exercises.

Walking lunges: 155x20 (20 per leg, that is)
Good morning: Stiff leg, torso parallel to floor, 135x5
Back extension: 135x10, 115x15
Weighted abs: 120x8, 110x10
Side bends: 100x8, 90x10
Cable row: 250x5 wide, 270x5 narrow
Pulldown: 240x5 wide, 260x5 narrow

Not awesome numbers, but I would imagine that most people can squat more than they can cable row. I spend most of my time working the big lifts; each workout is focused on one of them. On deadlift day, I work up to heavy triples (around 335). After deadlifts, I’m virtually fried, and often times I don’t have the energy to do any kind of useful accessory work. Likewise for squats; working in the mid-200s generally leaves my back and legs exhausted and unable to do additional useful work. For that reason, I am trying to identify and correct the weaknesses because I am not progressing with the big lifts.

Also, I end my squat workouts with 135x20 (2 sets) and that really left my low back screaming. I think that was my body’s way of telling me that it was a weak point.

10

Weak points have nothing to do with anything. Your form sucks. Get tighter.

11

How good is your nutrition? A heavy set of 3 shouldn’t leave you wasted and unable to do any work after it. Either your nutrition sucks or your GPP sucks.

I wouldn’t consider your squat and dead weak relative to the other lifts. It sounds like your lower back is weak. How much can you conventional deadlift?

12

[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:
How good is your nutrition? A heavy set of 3 shouldn’t leave you wasted and unable to do any work after it. Either your nutrition sucks or your GPP sucks.

I wouldn’t consider your squat and dead weak relative to the other lifts. It sounds like your lower back is weak. How much can you conventional deadlift?[/quote]

Nutrition is good, my GPP isn’t that great. I do most of my own cooking and rely heavily on oatmeal, milk, EVOO, beef, chicken, and fish. I have not tried to conventional deadlift heavy in some time. 8 months ago, probably 315x1. Then again, that was my 1RM for sumo and conventional back then. Deadlift day would be something along these lines, not counting dynamic warmups.

135x10
225x8
275x5
315x5
335x3 (for 3 to 5 repetitions)

Hungry4more suggested today during our workout to aim for 1-2 working sets … thus, leave some in the tank for other stuff later in the workout. I have been trying to go all-out on the big lifts to increase them, but I will heed his advice and see if I can’t strength my erectors.

13

Your Abs seem relatively strong. Are you absolutely positive you are keeping your abs tight when you lift (actually pushing hat shit out, not sucking in and flexing to look pretty)? Because it seems to me that the only explanation is that you are not tight enough while you lift. You shouldn’t have 26" legs and a squat like that…

14

[quote]njrusmc wrote:

[quote]thirdnalga wrote:
how respectable are your accessory lifts? Providing they are, all I can think of is a lack of ab work and practice. Have you ever tried high volume in the big three, like a sheiko, maybe a 5x5 program?[/quote]

For what it’s worth, here are the lifts. Since the general consensus seems to be a core weakness, I will put the core exercises.

Walking lunges: 155x20 (20 per leg, that is)
Good morning: Stiff leg, torso parallel to floor, 135x5
Back extension: 135x10, 115x15
Weighted abs: 120x8, 110x10
Side bends: 100x8, 90x10
Cable row: 250x5 wide, 270x5 narrow
Pulldown: 240x5 wide, 260x5 narrow

Not awesome numbers, but I would imagine that most people can squat more than they can cable row. I spend most of my time working the big lifts; each workout is focused on one of them. On deadlift day, I work up to heavy triples (around 335). After deadlifts, I’m virtually fried, and often times I don’t have the energy to do any kind of useful accessory work. Likewise for squats; working in the mid-200s generally leaves my back and legs exhausted and unable to do additional useful work. For that reason, I am trying to identify and correct the weaknesses because I am not progressing with the big lifts.

Also, I end my squat workouts with 135x20 (2 sets) and that really left my low back screaming. I think that was my body’s way of telling me that it was a weak point.
[/quote]

After reading this, I’d like to change my answer to “I agree with stronghold, get tighter”.

I think a big part of the problem (not getting tight enough) might be that you have no idea how to use your core when you squat or deadlift. Do you use a belt? Just from talking to you in the past and from what you’ve posted here, I’m willing to bet you don’t. I think you should get one, and learn how to fill your stomach and brace your abs hard against it. Learn this, the rest will come.

I’m sure you’re still thinking “but it’s a mobility issue” and while you probably do have tight adductors, I’d bet a lot that you aren’t using your core properly. When you mention the “butt wink” at bodyweight squats, the problem is probably just as much that you don’t brace your core when there is no weight as it is that your adductors are tight.

15

Something interesting… I am not quite sure what you mean by butt wink, but I am guessing you mean your lower back rounds a bit at the bottom? Anyway, I have been having this issue as well when moving to a wider stance in squats. Below is some advice I got in the beginners forum Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness that I think was quite good and really echoes what all the above folks have said too as in get tight or build stronger muscles to get tighter…

jakerz96 wrote:
I have trouble getting all the way down in the squat with a wide stance (and I want to get the stance a little wider to get the weights up).

My question about this first one is: Beyond mobility/stretching work and foam rolling what can I do maybe as an accessory lift to help with this?

Chris Collucci’s comment to me:

Check Point #1 here:

How’s your current core training and core strength? Consider bumping up your core work with ab rollouts, palloff variations, planks, etc.

16

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Weak points have nothing to do with anything. Your form sucks. Get tighter.[/quote]

My squat and dead are very similar to the OP’s. Honestly i think this is almost always the best answer.

Even though no one wants to hear that their form sucks.

I think a better question would be :
What was sore the next day from the last time you deadlifted?
Same question about the squat

17

[quote]jahall wrote:

I think a better question would be :
What was sore the next day from the last time you deadlifted?
Same question about the squat[/quote]

I personally think this is a terrible question. My front delts are sore when I bench, does that mean they are a weak point? Shit no, they are by far my strong point, but because of how the tendons attach and the way the muscle is stretched, that is the muscle that gets sore, not my triceps.

When I squat, my quads get sore, but I know that my weak point is my abs.

Weak point training is an entirely different thread, but I don’t think that is the OPs problem. If he wants to post a video of a failed or close to failure lift, then we can tell him what his weak points are, but the kid is doing sets of 20 on lunges with a weight that I’d have a tough time doing 10 and yet he’s squatting and pulling almost 200lbs less, in a heavier weight class. He just needs to learn how to use that strength.

18

Start your own federation that competes in lunges, bench and good mornings.

:wink:

19

I agree that a video of a failed, or close to failed attempt on your lifts would be the absolute best way for any of us to help you.

20

[quote]tjr-dk wrote:
Start your own federation that competes in lunges, bench and good mornings.

;)[/quote]

I know that this was meant as a joke, but I feel obligated to point out that his good-mornings are still relatively weak even compared to his squat or deadlift (not meant as an insult). That is part of what makes me believe that he’s not using his abs right. In most novice lifters, this is simply that they aren’t pushing their abs out and getting nearly tight enough.

I can throw around numbers and examples, but I’m pretty sure everyone here can understand that if you are doing good mornings with half of your “weak” squat weight, then something in the middle isn’t doing it’s job.