Strong Accessory Lifts; Weak Power Lifts

blow your belly out like you’re trying to look pregnant, and hit lower back hard. if you do that, its pretty had to collapse in the lift, which is probably what your doing. thats just a guess tho, post a vid.

[quote]threewhitelights wrote:

[quote]jahall wrote:

I think a better question would be :
What was sore the next day from the last time you deadlifted?
Same question about the squat[/quote]

I personally think this is a terrible question. My front delts are sore when I bench, does that mean they are a weak point? Shit no, they are by far my strong point, but because of how the tendons attach and the way the muscle is stretched, that is the muscle that gets sore, not my triceps.

When I squat, my quads get sore, but I know that my weak point is my abs.

Weak point training is an entirely different thread, but I don’t think that is the OPs problem. If he wants to post a video of a failed or close to failure lift, then we can tell him what his weak points are, but the kid is doing sets of 20 on lunges with a weight that I’d have a tough time doing 10 and yet he’s squatting and pulling almost 200lbs less, in a heavier weight class. He just needs to learn how to use that strength.[/quote]

I agree that a video is going to be the best way to diagnose bad form but for the longest time (and i’m not even great at it now) I could not get my pecs to fire on the flat bench.

Whenever I benched my triceps were always sore and my delts were always sore. I knew that because my pecs were never sore that they were never firing and thus my bench was (and still is) suffering massively.

Another example would be that my in the beginning stages of my deadlift my lower back was always sore and my glutes and hamstrings weren’t involved at all.

What i’m hitting at here is that I used soreness to HELP me figure out what I was doing wrong, not using it as a sole indicator.

[quote]jahall wrote:

[quote]threewhitelights wrote:

[quote]jahall wrote:

I think a better question would be :
What was sore the next day from the last time you deadlifted?
Same question about the squat[/quote]

I personally think this is a terrible question. My front delts are sore when I bench, does that mean they are a weak point? Shit no, they are by far my strong point, but because of how the tendons attach and the way the muscle is stretched, that is the muscle that gets sore, not my triceps.

When I squat, my quads get sore, but I know that my weak point is my abs.

Weak point training is an entirely different thread, but I don’t think that is the OPs problem. If he wants to post a video of a failed or close to failure lift, then we can tell him what his weak points are, but the kid is doing sets of 20 on lunges with a weight that I’d have a tough time doing 10 and yet he’s squatting and pulling almost 200lbs less, in a heavier weight class. He just needs to learn how to use that strength.[/quote]

I agree that a video is going to be the best way to diagnose bad form but for the longest time (and i’m not even great at it now) I could not get my pecs to fire on the flat bench.

Whenever I benched my triceps were always sore and my delts were always sore. I knew that because my pecs were never sore that they were never firing and thus my bench was (and still is) suffering massively.

Another example would be that my in the beginning stages of my deadlift my lower back was always sore and my glutes and hamstrings weren’t involved at all.

What i’m hitting at here is that I used soreness to HELP me figure out what I was doing wrong, not using it as a sole indicator.
[/quote]

Soreness does NOT indicate what muscles are and are not working; in all due respect, thats extremely stupid. All that gets noticeably sore in DLs for me is my lower back also, and never my pecs on the bench.

I was origionally going to say that you probably (again) aren’t getting tight enough if your pecs “aren’t firing”, but then as I continued to read your post I realized you are simply misguided in diagnosing working and non working muscles in your lifts.

[quote]Chap Manly wrote:

[quote]jahall wrote:

[quote]threewhitelights wrote:

[quote]jahall wrote:

I think a better question would be :
What was sore the next day from the last time you deadlifted?
Same question about the squat[/quote]

I personally think this is a terrible question. My front delts are sore when I bench, does that mean they are a weak point? Shit no, they are by far my strong point, but because of how the tendons attach and the way the muscle is stretched, that is the muscle that gets sore, not my triceps.

When I squat, my quads get sore, but I know that my weak point is my abs.

Weak point training is an entirely different thread, but I don’t think that is the OPs problem. If he wants to post a video of a failed or close to failure lift, then we can tell him what his weak points are, but the kid is doing sets of 20 on lunges with a weight that I’d have a tough time doing 10 and yet he’s squatting and pulling almost 200lbs less, in a heavier weight class. He just needs to learn how to use that strength.[/quote]

I agree that a video is going to be the best way to diagnose bad form but for the longest time (and i’m not even great at it now) I could not get my pecs to fire on the flat bench.

Whenever I benched my triceps were always sore and my delts were always sore. I knew that because my pecs were never sore that they were never firing and thus my bench was (and still is) suffering massively.

Another example would be that my in the beginning stages of my deadlift my lower back was always sore and my glutes and hamstrings weren’t involved at all.

What i’m hitting at here is that I used soreness to HELP me figure out what I was doing wrong, not using it as a sole indicator.
[/quote]

Soreness does NOT indicate what muscles are and are not working; in all due respect, thats extremely stupid. All that gets noticeably sore in DLs for me is my lower back also, and never my pecs on the bench.

I was origionally going to say that you probably (again) aren’t getting tight enough if your pecs “aren’t firing”, but then as I continued to read your post I realized you are simply misguided in diagnosing working and non working muscles in your lifts.[/quote]

Where in AL are you?

[quote]jahall wrote:

[quote]Chap Manly wrote:

[quote]jahall wrote:

[quote]threewhitelights wrote:

[quote]jahall wrote:

I think a better question would be :
What was sore the next day from the last time you deadlifted?
Same question about the squat[/quote]

I personally think this is a terrible question. My front delts are sore when I bench, does that mean they are a weak point? Shit no, they are by far my strong point, but because of how the tendons attach and the way the muscle is stretched, that is the muscle that gets sore, not my triceps.

When I squat, my quads get sore, but I know that my weak point is my abs.

Weak point training is an entirely different thread, but I don’t think that is the OPs problem. If he wants to post a video of a failed or close to failure lift, then we can tell him what his weak points are, but the kid is doing sets of 20 on lunges with a weight that I’d have a tough time doing 10 and yet he’s squatting and pulling almost 200lbs less, in a heavier weight class. He just needs to learn how to use that strength.[/quote]

I agree that a video is going to be the best way to diagnose bad form but for the longest time (and i’m not even great at it now) I could not get my pecs to fire on the flat bench.

Whenever I benched my triceps were always sore and my delts were always sore. I knew that because my pecs were never sore that they were never firing and thus my bench was (and still is) suffering massively.

Another example would be that my in the beginning stages of my deadlift my lower back was always sore and my glutes and hamstrings weren’t involved at all.

What i’m hitting at here is that I used soreness to HELP me figure out what I was doing wrong, not using it as a sole indicator.
[/quote]

Soreness does NOT indicate what muscles are and are not working; in all due respect, thats extremely stupid. All that gets noticeably sore in DLs for me is my lower back also, and never my pecs on the bench.

I was origionally going to say that you probably (again) aren’t getting tight enough if your pecs “aren’t firing”, but then as I continued to read your post I realized you are simply misguided in diagnosing working and non working muscles in your lifts.[/quote]

Where in AL are you?[/quote]

Homewood. Suburb of Birmingham.

From now on, I’m just gunna let Chap Manly explain what I’m trying to say, he does a better job of it anyways…

Chap Manly: Jahall said to NOT use it as a sole indicator. Your response was to NOT use it as an indicator. You basically just repeated what he said and then called him “extremely stupid”. Uhh…

I’m not giving any advice here because I don’t think I am strong enough to do so, but someone who benches 225 shouldn’t be giving advice on benching. “In” all due respect, you’re weak.

You’re 17 and you do not understand everything like you say you do on your HUB. Sorry to let you know. Honestly, just based on the fact that you’re from Homewood says a lot. Go Bucs!

[quote]TylerPK4L wrote:
Chap Manly: Jahall said to NOT use it as a sole indicator. Your response was to NOT use it as an indicator. You basically just repeated what he said and then called him “extremely stupid”. Uhh…

I’m not giving any advice here because I don’t think I am strong enough to do so, but someone who benches 225 shouldn’t be giving advice on benching. “In” all due respect, you’re weak.

You’re 17 and you do not understand everything like you say you do on your HUB. Sorry to let you know. Honestly, just based on the fact that you’re from Homewood says a lot. Go Bucs![/quote]

lol buddy, I do NOT think i know everything and nor does my hub say so. And I definitely don’t think that I have by any means any considerably poundage on my bench press, so I’m not sure why you jumped to that conclusion either. I dont think I’m strong; I’m never satisfied with where my lifs are, so even I think I’m weak thank you very much.

And I never repeated what Jahall said in any of my response to him, I didn’t even imply the same thing with different words, all i said was that relying DOMS to determine which muscles ARE NOT working is stupid. And in all honesty, that wasn’t correct at all.

And finally, I’m aware that I’m 17 years old and have spent FAR less time under the bar than most people on here. There are people on these forums who have been under the bar for twice as long as my age, or even longer. I’m not an all knowing forum troll; I’m always open to new knowledge, but what i said previously to Jahall was correct, and you know it.

And are you saying that you have to achieve a certain level of strength in certain lifts to offer advice? It seems like you are taking the forums for something other than what they are. Strength hierarchy does no = the right to speak.

[quote]TylerPK4L wrote:
Chap Manly: Jahall said to NOT use it as a sole indicator. Your response was to NOT use it as an indicator. You basically just repeated what he said and then called him “extremely stupid”. Uhh…

[/quote]

Allow me to clarify.

Do NOT AT ALL use soreness as an indicator. Not “solely” or “in addition to”, not at all.

Being sore in one place could be because you are strong in that area and that area is taking over, or it could be because that muscle is weak and it can’t handle the load you are applying to it, so how the fuck does it indicate anything? Not being sore could mean poor activation, or that the muscle is a strong point and it’s not working that hard. Besides that, you do accessory work, how the fuck do you know that it’s a weakness in the main lift causing the soreness, and not the accessory work?

Like I said, weak point analysis is an entirely different thread, and that isn’t even the OP’s problem.

[quote]threewhitelights wrote:
Not being sore could mean poor activation, or that the muscle is a strong point and it’s not working that hard. [/quote]

Which is exactly what I said. Chap Manly did not read my post and jumped all over me. There is essentially no argument to be had here.

“I understand lifting on a very very deep level. I understand the science behind everything I do, I understand why I do what I do, and I understand the mechanics behind lifting. I believe that’s why I’ve made the great amount of progress that I have in the relatively short time I have spent under the bar.”

Has made a great amount of progress: http://www.westside-barbell.com/dave-hoff-2700-262/
Understands everything about mechanics: http://jimmysmithtraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/dave_tate.png
Has/Does not: http://images.tmuscle.com/avatar_images/auto/r/150x0/6/6/66a44-020.jpg

I didn’t say you thought you had a lot of “poundage” http://www.themeparkreview.com/uk2006/thorpepark/thorpee136dan.jpg ??? on your bench, I was just saying that you shouldn’t give advice on how to bench if you aren’t good at it. I’m not going to ask a 10 year old girl how to drive a car if she isn’t good at it.

And no, I don’t think you’re correct. Using soreness as an indicator is logical. I just did lunges yesterday for the first time in months and my glutes feel horrible. Guess what my weak point is on my lunges?

[quote]jahall wrote:

[quote]threewhitelights wrote:
Not being sore could mean poor activation, or that the muscle is a strong point and it’s not working that hard. [/quote]

Which is exactly what I said. Chap Manly did not read my post and jumped all over me. There is essentially no argument to be had here.[/quote]

obviously if you read the above poster’s response, I’m not the only person who misunderstood your post. And I wasn’t attempting to jump all over you; I’m not your forum asshole like you see from time to time. I would’ve said much harsher things if that were the case.

If I did misunderstand you, I sincerely appologize.

“I understand lifting on a very very deep level. I understand the science behind everything I do, I understand why I do what I do, and I understand the mechanics behind lifting. I believe that’s why I’ve made the great amount of progress that I have in the relatively short time I have spent under the bar.”

Yeah read that carefully, I said that I know the science behind everything that I DO. Not “I understand EVERYTHING about what I do.” Big difference, so you creeping my hub to post that didn’t provide you with anything valid.

And actually I do know how to bench, I have taken hands on advice from a personal family friend who trained with the metal militia. And I have been critiqued on my form by professional. I rarely bench anymore due to partially torn tendons in my left arm. That my friend explains why I have a mere 225 bench at the moment.

[quote]TylerPK4L wrote:

And no, I don’t think you’re correct. Using soreness as an indicator is logical. I just did lunges yesterday for the first time in months and my glutes feel horrible. Guess what my weak point is on my lunges? [/quote]

One of the worst examples you could have used. In fact, I’m pretty sure the “glute guy” did an article on how soreness in the glutes from lunges didn’t mean that they were being worked on this very site. Louie Simmons even talks about how just because your pecs are sore doesn’t mean they are a weak point in multiple articles and in the Book of Methods. If a baseball player says his right anterior delt is sore after pitching 9 innings, do you think his coach should tell him he needs more right side anterior delt work? Shit no.

The glutes are just stretched well out of their normal range of motion on lunges. And as you said, they haven’t been put into that kind of range of motion “in months”, so of course they are sore.

Use whatever indicator you want, but when the fuck was that the point of this thread?

Oh, and you’re example for “understands everything about mechanics” is fucking terrible, even Dave Tate himself has said he doesn’t understand everything about how the body works.

Nick, sorry to fuck up you’re thread, you got good advice from a lot of people until a few threads ago. Good luck at sorting through it.

“Has made a great amount of progress: http://www.westside-barbell.co
Understands everything about mechanics: http://jimmysmithtraining.com/...5/dave_tate.png
Has/Does not: http://images.tmuscle.com/...6/66a44-020.jpg

As matter of fact, I have made a great amount of progress from when I first began lifting. And also, as it turns out, I used to train using the Westside Barbell training methods for a while, which is what really kicked my progress in gear. And ALSO, I’ve talked to Jimmy plenty of times by means of email in discussion of mechanics.

Again, invalid invalid information and failed attempt at humor.

[quote]threewhitelights wrote:

[quote]TylerPK4L wrote:

Oh, and you’re example for “understands everything about mechanics” is fucking terrible, even Dave Tate himself has said he doesn’t understand everything about how the body works.

I second every word you said, but especially this. I’ve talked to louie and dave quite a bit as well; Over the phone even. Very intelligent guys, but they will both openly tell you that they don’t know everything about the body.

And that goes for Jimmy as well.

1: The lunges example is fine, there are concentric portions of a lift AND eccentric if you didn’t realize. And I only used that analogy because it actually is happening right now.

2: I don’t care about the rest of it. Chap Manly, you don’t know shit and neither do the rest of us. Threewhitelights, Dave Tate is humble, that’s the point. I could have used anyone that knows a lot about it and as long as they don’t think they know a lot, they are humble. Ole Chap on the other hand thinks he knows about the science of everything or whatever weird semantics he used to say he isn’t humble.

3: Chap, I doubt you’ve spoken to them on the phone. They would both call you fucking retarded for your hubris and that picture. It’s just the truth. Also, I don’t care about your torn anything, Dave Tate (once again) has torn his pec about 50 times.

Speaking of horrible analogies, using a pitcher throwing a ball at full speed (1rm?) for 200 reps does not remotely compare to doing some lunges.

[quote]TylerPK4L wrote:
Speaking of horrible analogies, using a pitcher throwing a ball at full speed (1rm?) for 200 reps does not remotely compare to doing some lunges. [/quote]

Just because the load and volume is different doesn’t mean the analogy is void. Training based on “what is sore” is fucking stupid, just accept it or dont.

I don’t accept. And no one is basing it solely on that.