As for your last paragraph, it was nice that you took the tone you did, but this was after insinuating all the things that you’re “not saying” there.[/quote]
Obviously I used a lot of boisterous hyperbole and was largely joking, obviously about the electro shock therapy. But it is hard to brush over the bad experiences I have helped guide people through on that forum as a result of doctor incompetence.
[quote]
Either way, I’m not trying to be mean here, but this kind of thing really doesnt need to be proven to you. This area of medicine is advancing every year and patients are, more often than not, seeing the benefits. I dont care to argue anyome [/quote]
I hope youre right and that field advances far beyond the stone ages that it is currently stuck in, at least as far as hypogonadism is concerned. Until then I will continue to do my diligence as a patient advocate and help the guys that need it. This stuff really isn’t that complicated. Hopefully the endos that practice it and the insurance companies will come around.
If it weren’t for the legality I would almost certainly say I’d use in the next few years. With them being illegal, there’s a good chance I’ll never use. I’m fully aware that with doing your basic research, and doing things properly, the health risks are VERY low. Another thing is, I’d like to make a living in the future training clients, and/or running a gym…most well paying clients don’t WANT a freak to train them, they get scared.
[quote]chitown34 wrote:
Wouldn’t a doctor refer you to a specialist? That’s how it works for everything else… I see orthopedist for injuries, opthalmologist for eyes, dermatologist for the occasional ring worm. Don’t see why you wouldn’t be referred to an endocrinologist for hormones if steroids were legalized. sorry to interrupt doctor bashing, please continue…[/quote]
Unfortunately, endos are about the worst for this kind of stuff…unless you are on your death bed or at imminent risk of dying, endos are absolutely positively useless…they are in the business of saving lives, not improving (and certainly not optimizing) health.
[/quote]
Hahahahahaha. Yeah man, tell that to someone with diabetes or fertility issues or hypothyroidism, or hypopituitarism. Youre pretty fast and loose with these statements[/quote]
Here is a good one:
[quote]
fastersteve wrote:
Haha…My doc originally prescribed 200mg/every 2 weeks then called me and said to do 400mg/EOW when my test came back at 295 2 weeks after my last shot. [/quote]
This is in reference to Testosterone Cypionate shots. Displays absolutely no understanding of the half lives of the drugs in question (which is 1 week).
[quote]
fastersteve wrote:
“Your testosterone levels are WAY too high (799), we need to cut your dose in half. Why are you even on T shots?”
Because my test came back at 202… [/quote]
So he got a diagnosis of hypogonadism from an endo, raised his T levels to upper 75% of the range (which is established by sick patients) but endo wants him at the bottom of the range for no apparent reason? Clueless
[quote]
“What kind of protein powder are you taking? Some have been shown to shut down testicular function.” [/quote]
Lulz
[quote]
“You can’t be taking shots twice a week, that’s far too much testosterone. I think this is a really bad idea, you need to call me immediately.”
This is in response to a message I left with one of the front desk workers where I stated, at least 3 times, that I was taking 50mg/shot, 2 shots/wk… I think he thinks that I’m doing 200mg/shot, 2 shots/wk. [/quote]
Clueless and apparently unaware that pins hold LESS than the prescribed volume and couldnt comprehend the exact same weekly dose was being administered, just in more frequent increments.
[quote]
my endo. doc. said that my injection of test. won’t show up in my blood work for at least 7 days, i said i think i read where it will show up in one day, he says stop reading on those steriod forums. [/quote]
Again, these guys just seem to have no comprehension of half lives
[quote]
My endo in July 2010: Well your T is fine (372) and even though your E2 is a little high (48) it would have to be at least double that before you started seeing any symptoms…have you ever thought of losing weight? That would help your powerlifting, because fat doesn’t lift the weight.
Me: Well doc, if you remember correctly, my major symptom when I came in was that I can’t gain muscle and can’t lose fat…
Endo: Oh yes, well, I think you have depression…take this scrript for Wellbutrin and you’ll be fine…
6 months later
Diagnosis: Testicular Cancer [/quote]
That was actually my endo.
[quote]
Her: Who thought of this great idea to get thyroid tests?
Me: I want to check if I am dosing correctly or I need to adjust.
Her: Thyroid issues is what women have you are male. [/quote]
Good thing they are treating that hyprothyroidism huh!
Dude that is some genuinely scary stuff, if im ever unfortunate enough to have any hormonal issues expect a PM from me lol.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
I like how many of you said why OTHER PEOPLE shouldn’t use them without saying why you personally choose not to. Get off your natty pedestal and stop preaching, no one cares, and that’s not what the thread was supposed to be about.
This thread reeks of insecurity.[/quote]
Very confusing post when you don’t mention specific names. With the exeption of maybe elevenmag, I think just about everyone did give a reason as to why they personally decided not to. I really have not seen any natty preaching either with exeption to the guy already mentioned. [/quote]
had the same thought…[/quote]
There were a few posts in here that Made me think that, and I’m not going to name names because I like being passive aggressive.
Whatever your physique or strength goals are, steroids will get you there faster.
To get to a competitive level in powerlifting naturally could easily take you years of hard work.
To get there with gear, you could do it in under a year.
And the genetic potential argument is a load of crap. All that genetics do is dictate the endpoint you can reach, and whatever that endpoint is, if you use steroids that endpoint gets much further along. Plenty of studies have shown you will gain and KEEP more muscle than you ever could naturally if you use steroids because of satellite cell recruitment and fibre density increases.
The whole argument about whether you should use them or not is irrelevant. Its a personal choice. If you compete at any level in any sport, everyones using them, so it doesnt matter.
If you compete either in bodybuilding or powerlifting, all that matters is the competition you choose. If you are on gear you compete in regular comps and if you don’t use you compete natty. Nattys bitching about those that use should show some fucking respect. Those that are using are taking and accepting the risks of doing so.
For everyone else that wants to look good, there’s no fucking rules about whether using steroids to look jacked is cheating or not, just opinions.
For those who are well informed, steroids are very safe to use, but not completely without risk. What constitutes well informed is, however, very debatable.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
I like how many of you said why OTHER PEOPLE shouldn’t use them without saying why you personally choose not to. Get off your natty pedestal and stop preaching, no one cares, and that’s not what the thread was supposed to be about.
This thread reeks of insecurity.[/quote]
Very confusing post when you don’t mention specific names. With the exeption of maybe elevenmag, I think just about everyone did give a reason as to why they personally decided not to. I really have not seen any natty preaching either with exeption to the guy already mentioned. [/quote]
had the same thought…[/quote]
There were a few posts in here that Made me think that, and I’m not going to name names because I like being passive aggressive.
<3[/quote]
I don’t think you should use them…because you’ll continue to create jelly in abundance
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
Whatever your physique or strength goals are, steroids will get you there faster.
To get to a competitive level in powerlifting naturally could easily take you years of hard work.
To get there with gear, you could do it in under a year.
And the genetic potential argument is a load of crap. All that genetics do is dictate the endpoint you can reach, and whatever that endpoint is, if you use steroids that endpoint gets much further along. Plenty of studies have shown you will gain and KEEP more muscle than you ever could naturally if you use steroids because of satellite cell recruitment and fibre density increases.
The whole argument about whether you should use them or not is irrelevant. Its a personal choice. If you compete at any level in any sport, everyones using them, so it doesnt matter.
If you compete either in bodybuilding or powerlifting, all that matters is the competition you choose. If you are on gear you compete in regular comps and if you don’t use you compete natty. Nattys bitching about those that use should show some fucking respect. Those that are using are taking and accepting the risks of doing so.
For everyone else that wants to look good, there’s no fucking rules about whether using steroids to look jacked is cheating or not, just opinions.
For those who are well informed, steroids are very safe to use, but not completely without risk. What constitutes well informed is, however, very debatable.[/quote]
Too many downsides for me. Also, I’m not, nor have I ever been, interested in looking like an IFBB pro. So, for a guy who’ll be happy at 205 - 215 and 10% at 5’9" there’s no reason to use. Sure, it would make it a LOT easier, but there are too many potential problems IMO.
Decreased natural test production (yes, it can be mitigated, but guys who are on without a break for YEARS eventually fuck their endogenous test production)
Illegality - now, I do not equate morality with legality, but the risk of getting busted is not worth it to me.
Side effects - now, I know we have people on this very site who know more than board-certified Endocrinologists, and are steroid experts regarding every possible compound and its effects (and side effects) despite never having used steroids themselves, and despite the ridicule I might invite by offending people that clearly have a much better understanding than me (or actual physicians - hell, med school can’t be that tough, right?) I will say that there can be many, many negative effects of steroid use. Yes, again these can be mitigated, but acting like these incredibly powerful hormones are on the same risk level as drinking a cup of tea is maybe, just maybe, a little cavalier to say the least?
Things like injection site infections, high hematocrit leading to kidney and liver problems, “Tren cough” GH “flu” - difficulty sleeping, terrible night sweats, numbness in the extremities (usually from GH use), possible stroke or heart attack.
Now, I know I’ll be accused of being a dumb sheep listening to the media bias on steroids, but to that I say go and read a REAL steroid board - one with national level competitors posting regular threads (and I do read extensively on several of those boards (but of course I can’t mention it here, or link to it) - and you’ll see endless threads about all manner of whacky shit, including the above mentioned side effects - real people, real experiences. I’d say there’s been around 6 heart attacks and 3 strokes in the last year of regular members on the board I’m talking about.
Of course, out comes the excuse train (they were stupid, their heart attack/stroke had NOTHING to do with steroid use - yea, right - except that it did) because people DO NOT want to hear something that contradicts what they believe - you can tell because they immediately get furious and start getting REAL nasty, because they are of course, on the defensive at that point.
Do steroids work? FUCK YEA they work, and they work very well. But acting like they’re completely harmless is utterly ridiculous. These are POWERFUL drugs, and don’t bullshit yourself that they’re not. So that’s my biggest reason - not interested in taking the risk.
[quote]SkyNett wrote:
Do steroids work? FUCK YEA they work, and they work very well. But acting like they’re completely harmless is utterly ridiculous. These are POWERFUL drugs, and don’t bullshit yourself that they’re not. So that’s my biggest reason - not interested in taking the risk.
[/quote]
This is where I stand on the issue, Sky. Though I have considered it, what with turning 50 later this year, being small, dealing with old damn injuries, and being a lifelong slow-gainer… no matter how much I eat.
Yet I fear doing a cycle because I don’t want hair loss or other side effects. I’m already “getting old” and the inherent physical changes are not welcome. Not sure that 'roids would actually help, or maybe they’ll accelerate those changes.
[quote]SkyNett wrote:
Do steroids work? FUCK YEA they work, and they work very well. But acting like they’re completely harmless is utterly ridiculous. These are POWERFUL drugs, and don’t bullshit yourself that they’re not. So that’s my biggest reason - not interested in taking the risk.
[/quote]
This is where I stand on the issue, Sky. Though I have considered it, what with turning 50 later this year, being small, dealing with old damn injuries, and being a lifelong slow-gainer… no matter how much I eat.
Yet I fear doing a cycle because I don’t want hair loss or other side effects. I’m already “getting old” and the inherent physical changes are not welcome. Not sure that 'roids would actually help, or maybe they’ll accelerate those changes.
Plus, I effin’ DREAD needles.
lol[/quote]
Yep - the other major issue is the psychological addiction. Who the fuck is EVER going to get off the sauce when it means losing lots of LBM and being weaker? And sorry, that idea some folks have of “doing just a couple of cycles and keeping the gains” is bullshit. Go off and you’ll lose most (if not all) of the gains.
It’s like opening Pandora’s Box - once you start, there’s no way to go back.
[quote]SkyNett wrote:
Yep - the other major issue is the psychological addiction. Who the fuck is EVER going to get off the sauce when it means losing lots of LBM and being weaker? And sorry, that idea some folks have of “doing just a couple of cycles and keeping the gains” is bullshit. Go off and you’ll lose most (if not all) of the gains.
It’s like opening Pandora’s Box - once you start, there’s no way to go back. [/quote]
I think BBB once described it by saying, “Once you know what it’s like to be Superman, you never want to go back to being Clark Kent.”
Or something to that effect.
I always thought that was a cool way of putting it.
[quote]SkyNett wrote:
Yep - the other major issue is the psychological addiction. Who the fuck is EVER going to get off the sauce when it means losing lots of LBM and being weaker? And sorry, that idea some folks have of “doing just a couple of cycles and keeping the gains” is bullshit. Go off and you’ll lose most (if not all) of the gains.
It’s like opening Pandora’s Box - once you start, there’s no way to go back. [/quote]
I think BBB once described it by saying, “Once you know what it’s like to be Superman, you never want to go back to being Clark Kent.”
Or something to that effect.
I always thought that was a cool way of putting it.[/quote]
I remember that, I thought that was a great way to put it. It’s not to say they aren’t exceptions to the rule but I find it hard enough as a natty if I feel like I’m losing strength or size in any area, never mind the profound difference on/off gear could potentially make.
Personally I wouldn’t/can’t use at this time cause;
I’m still quite the noob with lifting and I’m only 18. Idk, I just feel like I’d be getting in to it too early. Just my opinion.
My knowledge of AAS is very minimal. (Convo between VTBalla and bam was like another language to me)
I know no sources atm let alone a SAFE one plus I’m constantly broke anyway.
Legality. Though here you can get away with alot. Never heard of anyone being busted for juice but I don’t wanna test my luck.
I don’t know if this merits as a point too but I’ve only met one person who’s used. The PE teacher in my school who claims he used it for his arthritis while he was in England. Getting advice from him on it though wouldn’t be smart. He doesn’t LOOK like he’s used and isn’t that strong even though he claimed that they gave him loads of strength.
Would be cool if Waylander could give us a some of his thoughts as to why he chose too. I feel like we have alot of people against it but hardly anybody who has used has posted yet.
I thought this was a really good thread, so I figured I’d post to add my thoughts after all of my lurking.
I never considered AS as an option for me as it appeared to incur a lot more risk than rewards. Can’t stand needles either so that’s part of the reason also.
Some of the things that have changed my mind, or at least opened my close-mindedness recently have been (dare I say maturing as a person):
I better understand the use of AS in competitions, sports, etc. and many times that it is required in order to compete (in many federations).
I see family aging around me and wonder if AS, HGH, or something along those lines may be a solution to slowing the effects of time. TRT is one method being used these days to help with that, and I’ve seen some older gents who use that look as good/feel as good as guys my age now. I’d like to know if actually does keep you younger longer, who doesn’t want to increase the years they have to “enjoy life”?
Its your choice to do what you want. I have a big problem with the illegality of certain “substances” but not others. When all incur similar risks, why are some okay and not others. Why can’t someone get a prescription for something that helps them? If it is administered by a professional/doctor/what-have-you is not the risk much lower?
For me, my biggest issue is I really don’t know what the “genetic limits” are of someone my height, etc. You see people all the time that are similar, but the moment you start to compare, you find out they are using, which blows the natural comparison away. There aren’t many naturals over 6’ in competition, so again, who do young lifters aspire to - mainly the guys who run in untested fed’s.
I would like to see the commmunity as a whole more open about it. I realize that it is illegal, but with forums you have a degree of anonymity. This site has some good discussion in another section, but what about results? I’d like to see pictures of before/afters, incurred side effects, what the purpose/reason was, etc. I don’t care about where you got it from, I care about where you came from and where you are planning to go. So much is shrouded in mystery and as a technically-minded person, I want knowledge, understanding, and answers.
If AS is as prevalent in our sport/interest as it is, then it is important that we understand it, what we can achieve without it (honestly), and what we can achieve with it. I think then it would be easier for people to make an educated decision as to whether using is right for them or not, and it won’t be based on what they heard, illegality, or whether its “the right thing to do.” I think that its a personal choice, but for the sake of young lifters, and those who seek knowledge, that if people are using, they should include that in their program/diet, etc.
